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Subrosa
Guest
Examples, please?
Subrosa
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Subrosa
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I pray you can one day set aside your false caricature of Catholicism. Instead, prayerfully contemplate what Pope John XXIII taught: “In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity.” (John XXIII, *Ad Petri Cathedram, *Encyclical on Truth, Unity, and Peace, in a Spirit of Charity, June 29, 1959,
vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_29061959_ad-petri_en.html )
We cannot help when the ignorant throw away the essentials and call them “disputable.”
Some Protestants, such as the Christadelphians, reject Jesus’ divinity. Does that mean we should move that principle to the “disputable” category? The Sadducees and the Samaritans only accepted the first five books of the OT. Should we consider the rest of the OT “disputable”?
What did Jesus say of the “disputes” of the Samaritans, the first century “Protestants” with regard to Judaism? He said, “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.” (John 4:22)
Did Jesus tell the Samaritans that their disputes were non-essential? Or did he uphold the truth of Judaism?
Instead of discounting the importance of the essentials of Christianity, as many Protestant sects have done, I prefer the way of Jesus, holding fast to the the love of truth while not discounting the truth about love.
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Angainor
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¹I have two words for this: Bologna.
The Bull ‘Decet Romanum’: the Condemnation and Excommunication of Martin Luther, the Heretic, and his Followers, January 1521.
The Bull “Decet Romanum”
Preamble
Through the power given him from God, the Roman Pontiff has been appointed to administer spiritual and temporal punishments as each case severally deserves. The purpose of this is the repression of the wicked designs of misguided men, who have been so captivated by the debased impulse of their evil purposes as to forget the fear of the Lord, to set aside with contempt canonical decrees and apostolic commandments, and to dare to formulate new and false dogmas and to introduce the evil of schism into the Church of God—or to support, help and adhere to such schismatics, who make it their business to cleave asunder the seamless robe of our Redeemer and the unity of the orthodox faith. Hence it befits the Pontiff, lest the vessel of Peter appear to sail without pilot or oarsman, to take severe measures against such men and their followers, and by multiplying punitive measures and by other suitable remedies to see to it that these same overbearing men, devoted as they are to purposes of evil, along with their adherents, should not deceive the multitude of the simple by their lies and their deceitful devices, nor drag them along to share their own error and ruination, contaminating them with what amounts to a contagious disease…
¹I posted this exact post before but deleted it because I wasn’t sure the document I referenced was a real document, since I found it by surfing the web. I think it is real.
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RobNY
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Angainor, the Church judges your actions, which she can readily perceive. God, naturally, judges you at your judgment.
Oh and, I guess Peter shouldn’t have “judged” Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. What right had he to do any of that!
Oh and, I guess Peter shouldn’t have “judged” Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. What right had he to do any of that!
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Angainor
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vern humphrey:
vern humphrey:
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
Romans 14:1
I am well aware of that, and it gives me no pleasure to do so. However, Catholicism did it first. As far as I know, the Bull “Decet Romanum” is still in effect. If Catholicism backs down, so will I.me:
Ironically, you are doing exactly what you accuse the Catholic Church of doing!
vern humphrey:
OK, fine. For sake of argument, let’s say that Catholicism takes a stand on “many” disputable matters and requires conformity from all Christians. How about “a few” disputable matters. Does this make it better?
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
Romans 14:1
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Angainor
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“It is wrong to lie to God”. That is not a disputable matter.
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barsapp
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Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions.
⇒ 14:1-⇒ 15:6] Since Christ spells termination of the law, which included observance of specific days and festivals as well as dietary instruction, the jettisoning of long-practiced customs was traumatic for many Christians brought up under the Mosaic code. Although Paul acknowledges that in principle no food is a source of moral contamination (⇒ Romans 14:14), he recommends that the consciences of Christians who are scrupulous in this regard be respected by other Christians (⇒ Romans 14:21). On the other hand, those who have scruples are not to sit in judgment on those who know that the gospel has liberated them from such ordinances (⇒ Romans 14:10). See 1 Cor 8; 10. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZ2.HTM#-48T
I do not clearly understand your point here… Do you mean that the Church has to accept heresy? The life of the Church is fight against heresy… That is what the World wants, to destroy Christ, to destroy the Church. Luther was a heretic, as many others. Among heretics, nothing makes him special… In fact, he was weak and shallow. The protestant reform only meant looting.
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Della
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The difficulty you are having is so simple, really. Luther was what is termed a formal heretic, thus he and his followers were cut off from the Church. However, what you and other Protestants who were brought up in your Protestant communion are is material heretics–a big difference. A formal heretic knows that he left the Church of his own free will and deliberately believes/teaches things contrary to the Christian faith, such as “once saved always saved” and other such deviations from the truth Christ taught his Apostles.
Though you are a material heretic, not a formal one, you are called a “separated brother” who is considered a Christian due to your trinitarian baptism. The Church considers you as deprived of the fullness of the faith, but you are not considered as another Martin Luther or any other person who deliberately cut himself off from the Church. You see, intentions and motives are very important to the Catholic Church, not just denomination or culture.
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estesbob
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Angainor
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Why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience?
1 Corinthians 10:29
But we all do have our own standards. It is unavoidable. I cannot force my standards to line up perfectly with Catholicism’s standards. I don’t even know all of Catholicism’s standards. There are going to be some details where my standards and Catholicsim’s standards are not going to match up. Upon which set of standards are my actions going to be judged? I must act according to my own idea of what is right and what is wrong. I have to be true to myself. I may be asked someday, didn’t you do something when you thought it was the right thing to do? If my only answer is Catholicism told me not to, that is a weak excuse.
That is not to say everyone’s standards of right and wrong are correct. Being part of the [thread=78648]priesthood of all believers[/thread] means we are responsible aligning our standards with the truth. The only way to do that is to follow the way, the truth, and the life. We must have faith in Jesus, the Word made flesh.
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barsapp
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If you want to rise against the Catholic Church, the first thing you have to do is refuse the principle of authority. After that, without this bond you can easily become a heretic. That happened to Luther. Now the gates are open to believe whatever you want. Nobody is going to tell you what is wrong or right. It is the triumph of subjectivism. And in the long term means the triumph of atheism.
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RobNY
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Angainor said:
I realize that is the topic, yet the problem I was referring to was whether or not the Church can judge someone’s actions. God bless, Angainor.
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mlchance
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Hold your breath for that one. It is, after all, completely reasonsable to expect the Church founded by Christ Himself to put into effect any change you desire so that it conforms to your understanding of what is and is not acceptable.
Hubris, anyone?
– Mark L. Chance.
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Angainor
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So I am Christian because of my trinitarian baptism. Would you say this has to do with indisputable matters?
I am deprived of the “fullness of the faith”. Would you say this has to do with disputable matters?
I ask because it is disputable matters that you are not supposed to look down on or condemn. I would say calling me a heretic, material or otherwise, classifies as looking down on me. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
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Angainor
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It is Hubris for Catholicism to define faith for eveyone. That is what Paul is talking about in Romans 14.
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itsjustdave1988
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Angainor said:
And it is wrong to commit the sin of heresy. That too is not a disputable matter.
Read Titus 3:10-11 (KJV): “A man that is an heretick (Grk: "hairetikos”) after the first and second admonition **reject *(Grk "paraiteomai"); Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." *
Matt 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
The Church is the final arbiter when one sins against his brethren, according to Scripture. Luther was a heretic. He was admonished numerous times. He refused to listen even to the Church.
In your flawed ecclesiology Angainor, you would have us believe the Church could never know or judge that a man is a heretic, as you suppose the Church has no such authority to be the final arbiter when one sins against his brethren. You imply that such authority is “hubris.” Yet, it is clear to all that your ecclesiology is contrary to Sacred Scripture.
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Pax
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Naturally, we disagree on this. If your assertion concerning Paul is true then he would never have said the following to Timothy.
1 Timothy 1:3-7
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith. Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.
1 Timothy 1:18-20
This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 4:11-16 Command and teach these things. Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Also Paul would not have been able to say this:
Eph 4:11-16
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.
I could go on but I think that these verses are sufficient to give credence to the idea of authority. If there is no authority but scripture there is only chaos in doctrine and belief, and that is precisely why Jesus prays for unity in John 17 and it is why Jesus establishes a church and gives it the power to bind and loose. Not only that, but Jesus was sent with all power and authority and he gave that same power and authority to his apostles. In John 20:21-22 it says, "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
There is only one other time in scripture where God breathes on man, and that is in the book of Genesis when God breathes life into Adam. The verses in John indicate a very important moment in the life of the Church. The Church has the power and authority granted it by Jesus himself and Jesus says that not even the powers of death and Hades shall prevail against it.
When I finally turned it all over to the Church, which is the body of Christ, and submitted myself to the authority of the Church I was liberated from my pride and ego. The mercy of Jesus was heartfelt at that grace filled moment in my life. The yoke is light and the burden easy. May God bless you.
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barsapp
Guest
the little problem protestans have is that they left the Church. Doing so they lost 1520 years of Christianity… so, 485 years of darkness…
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Angainor
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A heretick is one found to be subverted and sinneth. A heretick is assumed to be condemned. Yet…
while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC847).
It seems to me you cannot have it both ways. You want to write me off as condemned, but leave the door open to be saved in some circumstances.
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Coder
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Againor, I encourage you to begin attending mass as a guest, meet with a priest, and consider entering an RCIA program! I know you will find great joy in the apostolic faith! We welcome you!
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