Why I am not a Catholic - Romans 14:1-4

[Angainor]

GodBlessJoanie:

It’s difficult to be a Protestants

Did someone promise you being a Christian would be easy? I can understand the desire to kick you feet up in the passenger car while the Pope drives the train. I do not allow myself that luxury.

Watch out for false prophets. They come at you with sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matthew 7:15

GodBlessJoanie:
Just look as the Book of Genesis… the 1 and 2nd Chapters have conflicting descriptions about how the world was started.Genesis 1&2 do not conflict, but that is a matter for another day.

 

[Angainor]

Nicene:

And I tossed a red flag on your red herring.

First you say “who are you to judge anothers servant.” then violate your own principle by the very above quote.

“who are you to judge another’s servant” on disputable matters. Romans 14:1-4 speaks to disputable matters.

I ask again, what is the disputable matter, specifically, that I am judging Catholicism on?

 

[Nicene]

Angainor:

Did someone promise you being a Christian would be easy? I can understand the desire to kick you feet up in the passenger car while the Pope drives the train. I do not allow myself that luxury.

Actually you do, faith alone. No works.

*James 2:24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. *

]Watch out for false prophets. They come at you with sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

No doubt, see James quote above and find who is the false prophet.

Or how about Sola Scriptura?

2 Pet 2:20: First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

I smell some damp wool.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

“who are you to judge another’s servant” on disputable matters. Romans 14:1-4 speaks to disputable matters.

I ask again, what is the disputable matter, specifically, that I am judging Catholicism on?

While I appreciate your trying to get the hen out of the fox’s lair it’s a bit late. With due respect trying to change the emphasis of your arguement now that you have been caught at it isn’t going to help. It’s going to make you look worse.

Generally, the biblical principle, when caught in false witness is repentance, not avoidance.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Angainor]

me:

Which specific action am I falsely accusing Catholicism of doing?

Nicene:

You mean like this?

me:

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle.

I was hoping for something a bit more specific, but I will help you out to get the ball rolling:

I accuse Catholicism of taking positions on “disputable matters” and judging other Christians for not taking their position.

If this is true, I submit it is a violation of Romans 14:1-4.

Would a reasonable objective observer say Catholicism takes positions on “disputable matters” and judge other Christians on their positions on those “disputable matters”?

 

[Angainor]

Nicene:

me:

“who are you to judge another’s servant” on disputable matters

. Romans 14:1-4 speaks to disputable matters.

I ask again, what is the disputable matter, specifically, that I am judging Catholicism on?
While I appreciate your trying to get the hen out of the fox’s lair it’s a bit late. With due respect trying to change the emphasis of your arguement now that you have been caught at it isn’t going to help. It’s going to make you look worse.

Generally, the biblical principle, when caught in false witness is repentance, not avoidance.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

What I am guilty of is not having my arguement finely tuned enough from the beginning for your satisfaction. That is why a dialogue goes back and forth, so points can be clarified.

Please answer the question.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor:

I am not understanding. Please be more specific.

1. Which disputable matter exactly am I passing judgement on?
2. Which specific action am I falsely accusing Catholicism of doing?

Do you deny writing this?

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant?

 

[Angainor]

me:

I am not understanding. Please be more specific.

1) Which disputable matter exactly am I passing judgement on?

2) Which specific action am I falsely accusing Catholicism of doing?

vern humphrey:

Do you deny writing this?

me:

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant?

I do not deny it.

I accuse Catholicism of taking positions on “disputable matters” and judging other Christians for not taking their position.

If this is true, I submit it is a violation of Romans 14:1-4.

1. Which disputable matter exactly am I passing judgement on?
2. Which specific action am I falsely accusing Catholicism of doing?

 

[Nicene]

Angainor:

I was hoping for something a bit more specific, but I will help you out to get the ball rolling:

I accuse

Catholicism of taking positions on “disputable matters” and judging other Christians for not taking their position.

you=Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant?

And I said who are you to judge anothers servant?

If this is true, I submit it is a violation of Romans 14:1-4.

Clearly shown above. As Jesus said, reconcile with your brother…

Mt 18:15: "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16: But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

 

[maryalene]

Angainor:

Would a reasonable objective observer say Catholicism takes positions on “disputable matters” and judge other Christians on their positions on those “disputable matters”?

Given the wide range of beliefs in the world today, I don’t think it would be a stretch to expect that a third party could argue that every possible topic, including salvation and the divinity of Jesus, is a “disputable matter.”

The fact is that most issues of faith are indisputable in the Church’s eyes. In our faith, most beliefs, such as the Real Presence, 10 Commandments, and the 7 Sacraments, are not up for dispute. God laid down the law, and we are following it.

As I read Romans, a disputable matter would be me judging my neighbor for wearing jeans to church, not singing loudly enough, not wearing the scapular or not believing in Marian apparitions. Within Catholicism, these constitute “disputable matters.”

 

[Nicene]

What I am guilty of is not having my arguement finely tuned enough from the beginning for your satisfaction. That is why a dialogue goes back and forth, so points can be clarified.

Saying “I accuse…” is hardly dialogue. You keep making accusations.

Your arguement is hardly finely tuned, it is accusatory and arguementative and debasing.

1 Pet3:8: Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9: Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.
10: For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile;

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Angainor]

Nicene:

And I said who are you to judge anothers servant?

I am allowed to judge another’s servant on indisputable matters. I am judgeing Catholicism on the principles of Romans 14:1-4 which I consider to be indisputable. Do you also find the principles in Romans 14:1-4 indisputable? If not, what is your dispute?

 

[Nicene]

1. Which disputable matter exactly am I passing judgement on?

1. Which specific action am I falsely accusing Catholicism of doing?

Please. If you are not going to admit your culpability which has been plainly displayed you are just displaying indomitable self will.

As you keep saying “disputable matters” bring one up. Blanket statements without objects are red herrings.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

april_hosen:

My point is that is because of your faith you do works.

Where do you believe scripture teaches this idea?

Rather, what scripture seems to teach is that we do works because of our LOVE…

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word

*Joh 14:24Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. *

*…*which isn’t the same as faith:

1 Cor. 13:2 if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1Co 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I look forward to your answer!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

ANgainor,

The book of Jude is helpful in understanding church authority. Besides typical sinfulness the author mentions those that reject authority and revile the glorious ones. In verses 10-13 it says, “But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion. These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they boldly carouse together, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved for ever. Then in verses 18-19 we are told that, “’In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.’ It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.”

The book of Hebrews also speaks of Korah’s rebellion as it applies to us. In Hebrews 3:15-19 it says, “Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.”

Now anyone familiar with Moses and his leadership of the Israelites realizes that Moses had considerable authority and he exercised it in ways that defy your view of Church authority. The Sanhedrin and chief priests and elders also had considerable authority during the time of Jesus and his ministry. Jesus gives this same kind of authority to his New Covenant Church. It is not hubris for the one true church to claim that it is the true church. Shouldn’t the one true church be able to make that claim? Moreover, shouldn’t the one true church be under an obligation to make the claim and differentiate it itself from the others? Shouldn’t that church have the power to bind and loose? Shouldn’t that church exercise decision-making authority to silence false doctrines and to promulgate the true ones? Shouldn’t that church represent Jesus himself in matters of faith and morals?

There is no hubris on the part of the Christ’s Church. The Church is merely fulfilling part of its mission in exercising the authority given to her by Jesus Christ.

 

[Angainor]

maryalene:

me:

Would a reasonable objective observer say Catholicism takes positions on “disputable matters” and judge other Christians on their positions on those “disputable matters”?

Given the wide range of beliefs in the world today, I don’t think it would be a stretch to expect that a third party could argue that every possible topic, including salvation and the divinity of Jesus, is a “disputable matter.”

Fair enough. I said “objective” third party as an abstract, a hypothetical truely objective third party. Maybe such a thing can’t exist. Forget about that.

Could you honestly and objectively say that Catholicism does not take positions on disputable matters and judges other Christians by their position?

maryalene:

The fact is that most issues of faith are indisputable in the Church’s eyes. In our faith, most beliefs, such as the Real Presence, 10 Commandments, and the 7 Sacraments, are not up for dispute.

That is easy enough to say, but doesn’t it kind of imply that a matter was in some way in dispute when the Pope has to come out with a statement saying “I authoritatively declare that this is what Catholics must believe”?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

No, of couse not.

Catholics have the right not to associate with those they disagree with. Lutherans reserve that right as well. That’s what the Lutheran Church is, an association of Christian who have a like-minded understanding of theological issues.

Those Christians associated under the banner of Catholicism take this a step farther. Catholicism insists it is the keeper of the truth on all religious matters. It has the hubris* to speak for the whole of Christ’s Church. Lutherans seek to have their association while also remembering the principles laid out in Romans 14:1-4. Who are we to judge someone else’s servant?

*Someone used this word earlier and I took a liking to it.

Scripture says that there is a voice in the world that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ Himself and the One who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

Scripture also says that it’s the Church that is the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).

If this voice and this church are not the Catholic Church or the Lutheran church where, exactly, do you believe should we turn to hear this voice and find the one that upholds, protects and defends the truth? We know it’s there. God’s word tells us. Where is it?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

God made teenagers. While this is sometimes a precarious time, it is not without purpose.

Is that necessarily an excuse for rebellion?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

ANgainor,

Please do not misunderstand my post. I am not judging and saying that you are part of a modern day Korah’s rebellion. You simply have not yet become Catholic…but I have great hope that you will eventually. You would be a really good one.

 

[Nicene]

As for where the church gets it’s authority it comes directly from Christ:

Mt 16:19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As for your dig earlier at the Pope, the successor of Peter:

16: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I am sorry but whatever church you belong to didn’t exist prior to 1500, There was only one church, which I can prove patricitically if you like, starting with Ignatius, Clement, Iranaeus, Polycarp etc. They testify not only to the church but the seat of Rome.

Your forefathers left the church, inventing new doctrine along the way, but their children aren’t responsible for the faults of the father. Through no fault of their own they have been given false information not only about the church, but about their own heritage.

If you have “disputable matters” then bring them up. Blanket statements are worthless.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene