Why I am not a Catholic - Romans 14:1-4

[Angainor]

vern humphrey:

me:

To the second half of your statement, “it doesn’t really matter what you believe as long as you believe in Christ.”, I agree with the understanding that “believe in Christ” means more than “acknowledgeing that Christ walked the earth”. True belief in Christ is belief in Absolute truth. I don’t make the distinction you do of small “t” and big “T” Truth.

That’s a modern version of the Syncretist heresy.

So call me a Christian Syncretist. Paul was as well.Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:1

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor:

So call me a Christian Syncretist. Paul was as well.Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:1

No, he wasn’t. Paul did not say:

Accept him whose faith is wrong, without passing judgment on indisputable matters.

 

[Angainor]

vern humphrey:

No, he wasn’t. Paul did not say:

Accept him whose faith is wrong, without passing judgment on indisputable matters.

You and I have a major bizzare disconnect. I can’t figure out what it is. I didn’t claim Paul said that.

I confessed faith in Christ and the Abolute truth he represets. I also said that the rest doesn’t really matter. You called me a Syncretist. If I am so was Paul.
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:1

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor:

You and I have a major bizzare disconnect. I can’t figure out what it is. I didn’t claim Paul said that.

And because he didn’t say that, he wasn’t a syncretist.

Paul never subscribed to the theory that it doesn’t matter what you believe.

Angainor:

I confessed faith in Christ and the Abolute truth he represets. I also said that the rest doesn’t really matter. You called me a Syncretist.

You said

To the second half of your statement, “it doesn’t really matter what you believe as long as you believe in Christ.”, I agree with the understanding that “believe in Christ” means more than “acknowledgeing that Christ walked the earth”.

 

[Angainor]

vern humphrey:

No, he wasn’t. Paul did not say:

Accept him whose faith is wrong, without passing judgment on indisputable matters.

Maybe this will help clear some things up if I ask you:

What does matter outside of belief in Christ and the truth he represents?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor:

Maybe this will help clear some things up if I ask you:

What does matter outside of belief in Christ and the truth he represents?

That which is proclaimed by the Church de fides is essential. Those sects which reject this teaching are not co-equal to the Church.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

I would have to say I fall in to camp #1, sort of.

Absolute truth is, ultimately, unknowable if by “unknowable” you mean I can’t possess certain knowledge of Absolute truth like I possess certain knowledge that I have ten fingers. There is faith involved.
.

Joh 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth.**

In light of these scripture where do you believe God’s word teaches that knowledge of absolute truth is not possible?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

So call me a Christian Syncretist. Paul was as well.Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:1

Who decided that was a disputable matter?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[nasdravie]

I believe in Abolute Truth. I believe in an Absolute Truth that exists outside of any authority I, or any other human being could lay claim to. The Church is not, itself, the Truth. The Church is a keeper of the Christian understanding of Absolute Truth.

You say that the Church is not, itself, the Truth. However,
1 Timothy 3:15 says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Vatican_II]

The responsibility to bear witness to the truth and judge all men rightly was given to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ her founder. "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me so I send you.” And when he said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained.” John 20:21-23 Christ here has called the Catholic Church he established under Peter, Matthew 16:18-19 to do as He has done. Preach the good news of the kingdom of God, forgive sins, judge the true meaning of scripture *“You have heard that it was said…But I say to you…” * Matthew 5:21-43.

In Matthew 18:15-17 Christs says if your brother sins against you, you are first, to tell him his fault alone, second, if that fails bring one or two others as witness to your truth, and finally you are to “tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” Here, obviously Christ has called the Catholic Church to judge between individuals.

Finally, Christ gave to Peter and his successors the keys to the kingdom of heaven, *“whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” * Matthew 16:19 It is important to note that Jesus says whatever to be bound or loosed on earth. From the First Council of Jerusalem to beyond Vatican II the Catholic Church has used its God given power to clarify doctrine and apply the moral law of God to all the children of God following Christ’s command to go and preach to all nations.

The Catholic Church does not bow to the changing demands of society over 2000 years, but rather prostrates itself on proclaiming the unchanging word of God. While Protestant denominations have thrown off to varying degrees forbidence of: divorce, contraceptives, abortion, homosexual relations, female priesthood and other doctrines, the Catholic Church has remained universal in time.

I hope my post adds to the peaceful resolution of your conflict within you. While we must acknowledge a number of important issues separate Protestant and Catholic, we must remember that still more things unit us in our love of Jesus Christ.

“God bless men of good will”

 

[elzbeth99]

“Authority lies with the independent truth of the concept Paul describes in Romans.”

I don’t understand this statement, it is too abstract!
What independent truth can we ever find in God’s Word?
And what background do you have about this particular concept to justify your understanding of it and how it applies to how the CC is being false?

Please Explain once more?

 

[RPC717]

If you think you are using the Bible to disprove or contradict Catholicism in any way, you’d better check your arithmetic. It cannot, by definition, be done.

 

[vern_humphrey]

RPC717:

If you think you are using the Bible to disprove or contradict Catholicism in any way, you’d better check your arithmetic. It cannot, by definition, be done.

To use the Bible, you must accept the authority of the people who assembled the Bible, who selected the inspired books and ruled out the others.

And that was . . . I forget. Who was it that proclaimed the Canon of the Bible?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[Ignatius]

Angainor:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand./QUOTE]The problem lies in your misinterpretation of this passage and your misunderstanding of this principle.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. The Authority comes directly from Christ. He gave it the “Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven”, that is all authority and said that “whatsoever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Why I am Catholic. Matt.18

17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

The Church teaches the truth, and if you reject it you also reject Christ who sent the Church. Christ can make anyone stand, but if they choose to not stand of their own free will then nothing Christ can do can make them stand. As long as you remain apart from Christs Churchby your own choice, you will not stand by your own choice.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic4aReasn:

When I speak of absolute truth (small “t”) I’m speaking of those things which God has revealed to be true, not of Jesus Christ Himself (Truth- big “T”). The Protestant position seems to be broken down into two camps:

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be the one thing that concernes me most about Cathoicism.

It would never occur to me distinguish truth in such a way. Absolute Truth is Absolute Truth. Which truth are you commited to, small “t” or big “T”?

 

[Schabel]

Sorry to jump in. This thread was part of the email updates, and looked interesting.

Angainor:

What is an “indisputable matter”? An indisputable matter is a matter recognized by the Church to be an absolute truth. The Apostle’s Creed contains indisputable matters. The Nicene Creed contains indisputable matters.

What are the Creeds? They are statements of common understanding of Absolute Truths (We believe…). The letter in Acts 15:24 is a statement of common understanding of Absolute Truths (…so we all agreed…)

Good starting point.

Now, as asked above, do you believe in the “communion of saints?” How about the “Apostolic” Church?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or from the Father alone?

Not to mention the idea of the Divinity of Christ ("True God from True God) and the Trinity, and the incarnation, etc. etc.

So, outside of the Church, these matters ARE disputable.

What makes them INdisputable are:

• the authority of the magisterium and
• Apostolic Tradition

 

[haole]

Ezekiel 33:7-9, which Christ Himself also repeated. judgement means condemning. Jesus did not forgive the sins of the prosititute, He said, Neither do I condemn you. Condemnation means death. Correction done rightly is the proper course for any real Christian.
In your wandering amongst verse out of context, “you are a royal priesthood…”. After the golden calf incident at Mt Sinai, who were the royal priesthood?. The levites alone stood up for God and slew over 3,000. From thence it became a Levitical Priesthood. So what is your point?

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be the one thing that concernes me most about Cathoicism.

It would never occur to me distinguish truth in such a way. Absolute Truth is Absolute Truth. Which truth are you commited to, small “t” or big “T”?

Truth with a big “T” is God Himself. Truth with a little “t” is just a true statement. If I was to say, the White Sox beat the Red Sox, that would be a true statement, but it would not be God Himself.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be the one thing that concernes me most about Cathoicism.

It would never occur to me distinguish truth in such a way. Absolute Truth is Absolute Truth. Which truth are you commited to, small “t” or big “T”?

Truth (big “T”) is a person, Jesus Christ whereas truths (small “t”) are individual things that are true.

If this is the thing that concerns you most you have one foot in the door of the Catholic Church!!

In Christ,
Nancy