Why I am not a Christian?

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is drifting off topic folks…

We’re discussing “Why I am not Christian”.

Let’s get back on track, or the thread has outlived it’s purpose and can be closed.

Thanks!

 

[Karin]

Lance:

Have you ever asked someone to pray for you or have you ever prayed for someone else?

Of course I pray for people…but I direct my prayers to God.
And I have never asked someone to pray for me as I have never had any major issues in my life that required mass prayer(s) on my behalf.

 

[Lance]

Rachel Malloy:

This thread is drifting off topic folks…

We’re discussing “Why I am not Christian”.

Let’s get back on track, or the thread has outlived it’s purpose and can be closed.

Thanks!

But if someone is not Christian and especially Catholic because of a misunderstanding or misconception of what we believe then they should be corrected. Right?

 

[Della]

Karin:

No need to read anything about it…have spoken to our priest (R.C.) about it and he has explained it to me…I still do not agree with it or better yet it still does not make sense to me

I was at that place in my life at one time too, and so understand what you are saying. It may be that you don’t have a context in which to put these ideas that makes sense to you. I didn’t either. But, I did have access to prayer, as we all do, and as I’m sure you take regular advantage. Just ask God to lead you to the truth and then be open to it. I’m not saying you will automatically “see” what others do in the RCC, but if one wants to know the truth, God will not fail to lead us to it.

After that it is a matter of wanting the faith that only comes from God’s grace. This desire is not always evident to us, but it is there because God puts it in our hearts to seek it out. Anyway, I’m not really sure what I’m trying to convey to you except my good wishes for your journey of faith and you efforts to come to the truth, wherever God may lead you to find it. God bless you and yours!

 

[Karin]

Della:

I was at that place in my life at one time too, and so understand what you are saying. It may be that you don’t have a context in which to put these ideas that makes sense to you. I didn’t either. But, I did have access to prayer, as we all do, and as I’m sure you take regular advantage. Just ask God to lead you to the truth and then be open to it. I’m not saying you will automatically “see” what others do in the RCC, but if one wants to know the truth, God will not fail to lead us to it.

After that it is a matter of wanting the faith that only comes from God’s grace. This desire is not always evident to us, but it is there because God puts it in our hearts to seek it out. Anyway, I’m not really sure what I’m trying to convey to you except my good wishes for your journey of faith and you efforts to come to the truth, wherever God may lead you to find it. God bless you and yours!

Della…thank you for your understanding but God has lead me to my truth…and that is not the R.C. Chruch. Who knows perhaps at a much later point in my life that may change but for now it is how it is.

 

[Della]

Karin:

Della…thank you for your understanding but God has lead me to my truth…and that is not the R.C. Chruch. Who knows perhaps at a much later point in my life that may change but for now it is how it is.

And that’s fine. We all must walk our own walk with God as we stay open to his guidance. I will keep you in my prayers, please pray for me!

 

[Paris_Blues]

Peace

Why I am not a Christian?

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian because of these main reasons.

1- Christianity is man-made religion. it contradicts pure monotheism which all previous prophets taught

Prove it then please.

5- the Bible is full of contradictions, scientific and historical mistakes which proves it is man made

How is the Bible full of contradictions? It is NOT man-made!

1. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.

Three persons in one God. It’s a mystery! Why can’t you accept mysteries?

1. Christians depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

You actually think we worship them??? We have pictures to REMEMBER THEM! I’m sure you have pictures of your mom, dad, brothers, sisters, etc. in your house. When we look at a picture or statue of a saint, we REMEMBER how holy they were and what they did just like you would see a picture of your mom and dad and remember the things about them, etc. It’s like that. We DON’T worship them dang it!

1. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions’ beliefs.

Look who’s talking! Right now, it looks to me like YOU’RE the one who’s insulting our religion! THIS tells me that maybe you have no tolerance on Christianity either. Can you tell me that brother?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

11. Christians depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

“You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

In Exodus read ALL directions for constructing the Ark of the Covenant (in which the tablets of the commandments were to be kept) and strike #11 from your list.

 

[De_Maria]

Hello Karin,

Karin:

I have issues with praying to Saints,

When we pray to the Saints, we are simply asking other Christians to pray for us and to intercede before God in our behalf. This is based on the Bible teaching that:

1. Christians must pray for each other.

James 5:16 …and pray one for another, that you may be saved.
For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much

1. Christians don’t die, they go to heaven where they continue to do that which is God’s Will. If it is God’s Will that we pray for each other on earth, then it must be God’s Will that we pray for each other from heaven.

Matthew 22**:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven

Matthew 6 :10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven** Hebrews 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Therefore, these just men in heaven are waiting to witness and pray in our behalf. And their continual prayer avails much.

worshipping Mary

Although many Catholics deny that we worship Mary, I don’t.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

This is the sense in which I worship Mary. I give her honor in accordance to the instructions of the Scriptures:
** Luke 1
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.**

And in imitation of the Angel Gabriel and St. Elizabeth:
**
Luke 1
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.**

Note that these acts of worship by a heavenly being and by a holy person were inspired by God and written into the Scriptures for our benefit. This is so we must understand the proper attitude we must have in regards to Mary the Mother of God.

, Holy Communion,

**
John 6
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

John 6
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

1 Corinthians 10
16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

Matthew 26
26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

Luke 22
20 In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.**

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

(Cont’d reply to Karin)

annulments,

I’m sorry, I don’t know much about annulments. Thanks be to God, I am married twenty years with the same wife and four kids. Perhaps another Catholic will be able to answer this concern.

I will tell you however, that the Catholic Church has the most beautiful understanding of marriage than any other body of religion, including the Protestants. To us marriage is a sign of the union which will be consumated in heaven between us and God.

**
Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

According to the Catholic Church, the union of man and woman bodily in the marital embrace is a foreshadowing or sign of the image of God stamped into our being, an image of God Himself in the Holy Trinity. The Father loves the Son and the Holy Spirit is the love that binds them.

In the same way, man and woman are bound by love and become one flesh.**

Confession

How would priests know whose sins to forgive if they weren’t confessed?
**
John 20
23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

James 5
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
**

and origianl sin.

Do you not believe that Adam and Eve committed a sin when they disobeyed God?
**
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat**

So far these are my only hinderances to joining the R.C. Church.
If I could understand these things a bit better or truly believe why these things are so important I may change my mind.

I hope these answers are of help. May God bless you and bring you quickly into the fullness of Truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hello Faith101,

Faith101:

maybe i shouldnt have responded, but statments like those amaze me. Alhamdulilah

Statements like those in the Quran amaze me.
**

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191**

This is not an isolated statement and proves that Islam is not tolerant of other religions. Never has been, never will be. It also proves that Islam is not a religion of peace.

THen you say that you have yet to beleive that Islam is a religion of good. Again, i ask you, where did you get this idea from?

From the Quran itself:
**
Allah intends to burn people in hell. 17:18**
**
Allah leads those who do not believe in the Hereafter astray by making things work out OK in this life, so that he can torment them forever in the next. They will get the worst punishment and will be the greatest losers. 27:4-5**

Franze said:

Please, muslim, explain me evidences for believing that Muhammad saw the Angel Gabriel?, Islam was a religion invented by Muhammad. It is very clear.

And you responded:
Franze

open a new thread…and support that statement with proof.

If you can not, and you will not be able to, then Fear God in what you say.

First of all, was it the angel Gabriel or Gibreel? The angel Gabriel is an archangel of God. His name means “Power of God”. He is the angel that brought the Good Word to Mary that she would bear a son and His name would be Jesus.

The so-called angel Gibreel is the angel that brought the news to Miriam of the Quran (the sister of Aaron, unbelievably), the news that Allah would put his holy spirit in her and she would bear a son. Note that this so-called angel’s name is not Gabriel but Gibreel and his name means “Holy breath or Holy spirit”.

Remember also this prophecy from the Bible:
**
Galatians 1

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.**

here we go again

Alhamdulilah…i’ve learned a lot about patience.

ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIM CONCEPT OF WORSHIP…YOU WORSHIP MARY.

And you worship a black rock before which you kneel and which you kiss when you make the pilgrimage to Mecca. You also direct your prayers to it 5 times a day.

we talked about this before. We understand (AND THE QURAN ALSO STATES) that you will say

“we only use Mary to get us closer to God” or “mary and the saints are our intercessors” this all falls under the concept of worship.

There is more than one meaning for the word worship. The Catholic encyclopedia explains:

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross…

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

This is the only sense in which it can be said that we worship Mary.

I understand that you will argue this. Probably because other Chrsitians say the same thing about Catholics and it has become a point of sensitivty.

It is not a point of sensitivity. It is simply the truth. The truth is true whether you believe it or not. Perhaps you are sensitive about the fact that we worship one God, the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity which is reflected in every aspect of our lives, both mine and yours.

Nature reflects the Holy Trinity. Everything around us is three dimensional. Yet everything around us is one. Time is itself three dimensional, past, present and future. Yet it is seamlessly one.

On the other hand, the one dimensional God of the Muslims is reflected only in the imaginary. A point is one dimensional, yet a point exists nowhere except in one’s imagination.

The Holy Trinity is reflected by human family relationships. The Husband and Wife unite with each other united by the Spirit of Love and they become one. God the Father and God the Son are united by the Spirit of Love in the Holy Trinity.

The Islamic concept of God is a poor imitation of the Truth.

Perhaps Muslims are just too superstrict when it comes to the idea of ONE God.

No, Muslims believe that Allah’s knowledge extends into creation and yet Allah is outside of creation. That means that Muslims believe that Allah can be divided. Therefore they are not superstrict about Allah’s oneness, they are super believers in contradictions. Obviously, if Allah is one, then one attribute of His doesnot extend beyond another. Yet this is what Muslim’s believe.

(cont’d)

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d reply to Faith101

you know what i think it is…i think Islam makes too much sense for you to try to poke holes in the foundation of our beliefs…so you say something like “well it doesnt matter whats in the boook, b/c its not from God”

As a matter of fact, Islam makes no sense at all. Take for instance the concept of simplicity. Many Muslims teach that Islam is true because it is simple. Yet simplicity is not absolute. What is simple to one individual is not simple to another. Therefore simplicity can not be a measure of Truth. A plain example will reveal the truth. There are lies which are very simple and because of their simplicity more easily believed. And there are truths, which are very complex, yet their complexity does not make them false.

They do. Like i said, verses from the Bible do support that Jesus peace be upon him was JUST a messenger.

No they don’t. The Bible is not taken apart verse by verse and set one word against another. The Bible is read in the same Spirit which inspired it, the Spirit of God.

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 111 (398 bytes ) preview document matches
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/111.htm

In addition to the fact that the foundation of the religion is based on mystery

Your religion is based upon the same mystery, God. According to Islam Allah is unknowable, isn’t this correct? Or do you claim to know Allah?

and inherited sin…

First of all, your assumption is wrong, the Church does not teach that sin is inherited. Original sin is not actual sin and it is not a sin inherited, it is the reason why we are born deprived of original justice. It is the reason why we do not inherit original justice.

1: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 379 (120 bytes ) preview document matches
79 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/379.htm 94%*********_

2: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 384 (185 bytes ) preview document matches
4 Revelation makes known to us the state of original holiness and justice of man and woman before sin: from their friendship with God flowed the happiness of their
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/384.htm 93%*********_

3: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 400 (623 bytes ) preview document matches
0 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered;
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/400.htm 93%*********_

4: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 416 (147 bytes ) preview document matches
6 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/416.htm

But explain to me, what is Islam’s explanation for the existence of sin in humanity. According to Islam is sin inheritedAnd or is it put in every human by Allah?

and ends with the brutal murder of one innocent man

Actually, this is a new beginning.

…must of Christianity is man-made. Much of the practices of some Christians today resemble the same practices of the pagan Arabs 1400 years ago.

No, Christianity is Divine. It is Islam which is man-made and that man is Mohammed. Note that no one but Mohammed witnessed the alleged revelation from heaven. NOte that Mohammed gets whatever he wants whenever he wants. Note that even in Islam Jesus and Mary are sinless. Yet it is the sinner, murderer, adulterer Mohammed which is the hero and leader of Islam.

Note also that Islam endorses lying, slavery, and murder of non-believers.

Nothing that has been polluted by man is divine.

You have described Islam.

I’m not sitting here telilng you to prove that Mary was a virgin

You don’t believe the Quran?

or telling you that Jesus’ healing people was magic, like much of what people said during his lifetime. I’m telling you that he was a man with a message. And those that followed him left his message, and took the man as a god. May God guide us all.

An ordinary man? With no human father? Who was His Father according to the Quran?

And He provided miracles witnessed by many and documented. What miracle did Mohammed make? Isn’t it just to ask for a miracle from one that is sent by God?

cont’d again

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d reply to Faith101

In reference to reliability of the Bible you said:

If reliable means that every word in it is true, then no.

The Bible is the inerrant Word of God, therefore it is perfectly reliable. It is certain people who twist its meaning because they don’t submit to the teaching of the Catholic Church the authorized interpreter of the Scriptures. The Bible itself says, “If he does not believe the Church, treat him as a heathen and a tax collector. (Matt 18:17)” And also, “The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15).”

addition: It is the source that Christians derive their beliefs from,

No. You are explaining Protestant belief. The Catholic Church is the source of Christian belief. It is the Catholic Church which put the Bible together. It is the Catholic Church which explains the Word of God in a Trinitarian manner. Just as God is a Holy Trinity, so is His Word, Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture.

**
95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.**

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#95

therefore if someone would like to argue with the Christians about what they believe…then he/she should start with it.

It is fair to start there. When arguing with a Catholic, we may take you elsewhere for the answer.

I dont understand what you mean. It’s like handing you a fiction that was based on a real persons life, but twisted and turned that it can no longer be called non-fiction. Is the book reliable? I dont know what to say.

No, it is more like handing you the Truth and you calling it a lie. You have no proof of the Bible being corrupted, you simply make the accusation. In order to prove the Bible corrupt, you must provide a copy of the original uncorrupt version. You have no such thing. All you do is point to the erroneous Quran which says that Maryam, the mother of Jesus is Aaron’s sister. Mary is neither Aaron’s sister nor Moses sister being born many centuries after them. This type of unhistorical statement from the Quran proves its incompetence at telling the truth.

To start, the Bible does not add nor subtract from my faith. I dont need it to be a Muslim, nor do i need it to stregthen my faith in Islam.

According to the Quran, the Injil is the Word of God given to Jesus and according to the Quran, the Word of God can not be nullified. Do you believe that the Bible is the Injil, the Word of God, then how do you believe that it has been nullified?

What i meant when i said that was that the Bible can not be used as solid evidence for either side, yet it can be used as evidence for BOTH sides. For me, that doesnt cause any dilemna. However, it does cause a dilemna for a Christian who is trying to reconcile the idea of jesus being god with the statments in the Bible that are against that idea.

You are wrong, the Bible can only be used as evidence for the truth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and His Gospel.

The Quran, on the other hand, can only be used as evidence of its own errors.

As a Muslim, when talking with a Christian, these things will come up. At the end of the day, i go back to my holy book, of which there is no doubt or contradiction.

That is because you haven’t read it with understanding. I refer you to this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=978843

I go back to my Quran where Allah clearly explains who He is and what He wants of us.

Yes it is very plain that Muslims give Allah many attributes which belong to Satan:

Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41

It is also very plain, what this leads to:

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191

And this confirms what the Bible says:

**
2 Corinthians 11

14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.**

And therefore, the Angel Gibreel who allegedly brought a false Gospel to Mohammed, he is anathema!
**
Galatians 1

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.**

Sincerely,

De Maria