Why I Am Not A Roman Catholic

[East_Anglican]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

 

[TomaszA]

Christians have universally recognized the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Outside of what is revealed in the Bible, the early non-canonical reference to the real presence is in the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch around 105 AD:

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3).

and…

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1).

If I’m not mistaken the first time the real presence was rejected was in the 12th century.

 

[StMarina303ad]

East_Anglican:
Hi,

I’m not Catholic, but an Orthodox Christian - specifically Greek Orthodox.

All Orthodox and Catholic Christians each have something unique, our Church leaders have unbroken Apostolic Succession.

Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople goes all the way back to St. Andrew.

Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria goes all the way back to St. Mark

Greek Orthodox Church of Jeruselem goes all the way back to St. James

Antiochian Orthodox Church goes all the way back to St. Peter

Roman Catholic Church goes all the way back to Sts. Peter & Paul

It is interesting to note that each part of Christ’s Historical Church which can be proven through the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession each have always taught from the beginning that eating the Holy Eucharist is eating the very Body and very Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. While the only churches who do not teach that are all ones that have popped up out of no where over the last 500 years.

Statues? That is not something that was in the ancient Church; however, Icons have been in the Church and considered “windows of heaven” since St. Luke the Apostle wrote the first one. The first Icon ever written was St. Luke made - it was made while the Theotokos - Mary, Mother of God was still alive at the time and the Icon was of Mary holding Jesus. Icons have always be part of the worship in the Christian Church.

You don’t have to become a Catholic to enter into the Historical Church of Christ, you can become Orthodox - there are tons of protestant converts into both Churches and each will welcome you. You ought to prayerfully consider joining one of them though so you can be a part of the Church Jesus gave His very Life to establish.

 

[TomaszA]

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

The Saints in heaven are capable of knowing our prayers to them through the Beatific Vision (not through telepathy or some sort of omniscience) since God knows all things and can make our prayers known to them.

This makes intercession possible, the reason why intercession is good is because God is pleased with it since it reflects fraternal love between Christians and because it shows our humility.

Sometimes pictures and statues are used to represent Saints. We pray (that is, petition) who the image represents, and not the image itself.

Hope this helps!

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Dirk_Skene]

Why are you here It’s not like there is a chance you will convert anyone :ehh:

 

[TomaszA]

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:21-23

The authority Jesus had on earth continues through His Church. His Church exists to continue His mission, which is the salvation and sanctification of humankind. Therefore, any sacrament performed by a priest is primarily attributed to Jesus Himself and only secondarily to His priest. Thus, when the priest absolves someone of their sins in the name of Holy Trinity which Jesus granted to His Church, it is actually Christ who forgives them.

Some textual scholars say this passage from Matthew’s gospel indicates that Christians in his community possessed the authority to forgive sins:

“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men."
Matthew 9:6-8

 

[Rulkiewicz]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Great post. That probably sums it up as to why many of us are not Catholic.

 

[cazayoux]

Wow ! That’s a great summary of misconceptions and misunderstandings. I welcome you to the forums. Hopefully we can shed some light for you on what Catholics actually believe as well as why we believe it. We might even use scripture.

michel

 

[nebula]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

If that represents the the most damaging critiques of Catholicism, then Catholicism is in pretty good shape.

 

[Soutane]

Laughable post.Throw everything against the wall and hope something sticks.Every one of your specious allegations have been answered and devastated here at Catholic Answers hundreds if not thousands of times.Use the search feature if you want to know the truth-but I suspect you won’t,and don’t.

 

[Erich]

There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Then your Bible must not have in it the below-referenced verses. From Confirmation:

The sacrament of confirmation is found in Bible passages such as Acts 8:14–17, 9:17, 19:6, and Hebrews 6:2, which speak of a laying on of hands for the purpose of bestowing the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:2 is especially important because it is not a narrative account of how confirmation was given and, thus, cannot be dismissed by those who reject the sacrament as something unique to the apostolic age. In fact, the passage refers to confirmation as one of Christianity’s basic teachings, which is to be expected since confirmation, like baptism, is a sacrament of initiation into the Christian life.

We read: “Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment” (Heb. 6:1–2).

Notice how in this passage we are walked through the successive stages of the Christian journey—repentance, faith, baptism, confirmation, resurrection, and judgment. This passage encapsulates the Christian’s journey toward heaven and gives what theologians call the order of salvation or the ordo salutis. It well qualifies as “the elementary teachings” of the Christian faith.

The laying on of hands mentioned in the passage must be confirmation: The other kinds of the imposition of hands (for ordination and for healing) are not done to each and every Christian and scarcely qualify as part of the order of salvation.

 

[Erich]

The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Then you must not be very familiar with Jewish or Christian theology. How do you reconcile “all have sinned” with “nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]”? If purgatory is a “medieval superstition” then how is it that Monica, mother of Augustine, asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses? This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

And from The Roots of Purgatory:

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

 

[ralphinal]

I do not know if I am offended by that most more than I pitty the poster or not.

There is no reason to be ignorant if you can post things on line.

 

[cazayoux]

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

A couple of points.
God is God of the living, not the dead.

Matt 22:32
[32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:27
[27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Luke 20:38
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

So I wouldn’t consider the saints in heaven dead.
The old testament says talking to the dead is wrong. I agree!!!
The dead spoken of cannot be the same as those in heaven since God is the God of the LIVING!

The church is the body of Christ.
How many bodies does Christ have?
Is there one body in heaven of the saints there and one body on earth of the Christians here?
No. There is only one body of Christ.

Can death separate someone from the body of Christ?
Those in heaven and on earth are of the same body of Christ.

Romans 12:5
[5] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

You call those in heaven ‘dead’.
I would think that our life in heaven will be more of a reality than what we experience on Earth.
Our life here is a mere shadow of what our life will be in heaven.
Those is heaven are MORE alive than we are.
I don’t understand you calling them ‘dead’.

Now … this God of the Living that we both believe in is all powerful.
He’s powerful enough to give power to others.
This is evidenced with Jesus (given all powers on heaven and earth) and what power Jesus gave to the apostles (to heal, to drive out demons, and to forgive sins).

You act like those in heaven are not even paying attention to us on earth.

Rev 8:4
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Here, we see an angel offering the prayers of the saints to God.
Why oh why wouldn’t these prayers have gone straight to God?
Why is this angel involved at all with the prayers of individuals?

michel

 

[Erich]

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man.

It does? Where? Since when?

From Praying to the Saints:

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

I’m beginning to detect a common theme here… namely, the OP could actually, with very little effort, refute his own arguments – if he would only take a few minutes of time to find out exactly what the Church teaches (instead of what he thinks it teaches).

 

[Usagi]

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church.

Baptism makes you a member of the Church, yes. However, there is only one Baptism, not Catholic Baptism and Protestant Baptism. Persons baptized in another Christian communion are truly baptized, and the Catholic Church does not rebaptize them.

It is sometimes useful to note whether someone was “baptized Catholic” or not (as it can have bearing on whether they ought to undergo instruction before entering full communion with the Catholic Church), but the nature of the baptism is the same in both cases.

Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

This is false. Latin-rite Catholic children receive their First Communion quite awhile before Confirmation. Eastern-rite Catholic children are baptized, confirmed, and given Holy Communion on the same occasion, shortly after birth.

The term “confirmation” does not appear in the Bible, it’s true, but there are New Testament references to believers who have been baptized, but have yet to recieve the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the apostles’ hands.There we see the beginnings of the distinction between baptism and confirmation.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

“Dead saints” are still on the “man” side of the “God and man” equation, and therefore do not usurp the unique mediatorship of Christ. We believe that, through their participation in the one Body of Christ, our brothers and sisters in Heaven can intercede for us in prayer before God, just as our earthly brothers and sisters can.

If someone’s relationship with a saint is getting in the way of their relationship with Christ, the Church most certainly would not approve.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

“Statues” are not mediators between anyone and anyone, as they are not alive. Sacred images can help us to focus our minds on Christ and the saints. If they are not helpful in that way, or even harmful, then one should not use them.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

It is, in fact, exactly the opposite. Someone else already quoted the passage in John 20 where Jesus grants His apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. We believe that we are able to appreciate Christ’s mercy and forgiveness all the more when we can actually hear the words being spoken by an Earthly representative of the Lord. Naturally, we are still being forgiven by Christ, through the ministry of the priest, not by the priest as a fellow human being.

While I know they don’t have quite the same role, don’t Anglicans have priests as well? It seems odd that you would put “priest” in scare quotes.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Very true. But He did provide leaders in His Church, and gave them the power to appoint others after them. Naturally, these leaders should govern according to Christ’s principle of servant leadership, and not as tyrants. That they sometimes fail is not an indictment of the entire idea of Christian leadership.

[continued]

 

[Usagi]

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

I tend to agree, and find the Co-Redemptrix concept unfortunate. Thankfully, it is not yet Catholic dogma, and perhaps will never be.

Even those Catholics who use the term, though, do not mean that Mary is equal to Jesus or has the same role in our redemption. Mary is called co-redemptrix in the same sense that Eve is “co-damnatrix,” even though the Bible is clear that it was Adam’s sin that brought about the Fall. Adam, as the progenitor of all humanity (including Eve) alone stood in the position of being able to determine the fate of all who came after him. However, Adam’s fateful act came about in the context of Eve’s prior disobedience. Likewise, only Jesus stands in the position of true God and true Man, able by His willing sacrifice to redeem the human race. No one else could perform that duty. However, God permitted that His Incarnation should come about in the context of the prior obedience of a young woman, Mary. Thus, though her actual role is of infinitely less importance, Mary serves typologically as New Eve to Jesus’ New Adam. There’s even a nice “bookend” to the original creation order: where the first Eve’s flesh was made from that of the first Adam, the last Adam’s flesh came from His “Eve.”

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise.

Not the highest, no. Praise worthy of Mary’s station, yes, but nowhere close to the praise we give to God.

If some Catholics do offer greater praise to Mary than to Jesus, they are very wrong for doing so, and the Church clearly tells them so.

They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name)

The goddess Diana? Where are you getting this stuff?

I can assure you that I, for one, have never worshipped Mary and certainly have never worshipped the goddess Diana. If that is what the Catholic Church wants me to do, it is failing miserably. Fortunately, I don’t think that’s the intent at all, except in the minds of certain anti-Catholic writers with questionable standards of research.

It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

If it is, then based on me and every other Catholic I know, it’s not working very well.

Where do you get the idea that the Catholic Church is deliberately trying to “trick” people into staying away from Jesus? The Catholic Church has been proclaiming and worshipping Jesus for two thousand years.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Not so. It is not claimed that Mary “had to be” immaculate in order to carry Jesus. Jesus could have been born from the wickedest woman who ever lived, or from a rock if He wanted to. It is fitting, however, that the woman He chose as His mother be given all possible graces and gifts. This was all by God’s choice, of course, not because of any trait or deed of Mary’s that would have caused her to “deserve” it.

Even under the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was still “saved” by Christ’s death on the cross, just as all Christians are. She was merely saved a little earlier than most.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too.

The Church believes that Christians ought to perform good works and penitential acts for their sins in order to better receive God’s grace and grow spiritually. A person who absolutely refuses to do good when the opportunity arises, or who remains without contrition for sin, is not much of a Christian, and Catholics would argue that such a person is not in a state of grace and is therefore not bound for Heaven (though we cannot judge whether any given person is so afflicted).

The Church does not, however, teach that our salvation comes through our works and acts of penance, as though we could earn God’s favor and a place in Heaven by our own deeds. God’s freely bestowed grace is the only thing that can raise someone to Heavenly glory. Indeed, God’s grace is the only way we can even have faith, or perform good works. We do believe (along with the vast majority of Christians other than staunch Calvinists) that some degree of “response” is needed on the human’s end, if only a matter of accepting the grace rather than refusing it. That way, we can affirm (as the Bible does) that God wills all to be saved, yet also acknowledge that some are not saved through their own fault. God predestines no one to Hell, yet some of us manage to find our way there anyway.

So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

This is both false and insulting. God’s grace costs nothing, and neither do the various gifts (such as the sacraments) that the Church has been given to help its members maintain and grow in that state of grace.

[continued]

 

[Usagi]

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The ultimate objective of Calvary was of course achieved, as even those who temporarily undergo purgation are ultimately destined for Heaven.

The idea behind Purgatory is that not everyone, when they die, is completely ready for Heaven. Of course, they have Christ’s sacrifice guaranteeing them a place there, but they themselves may have minor sinful habits still extant. The souls in Heaven are entirely perfected, no matter what they were like at the moment of death. Purgatory is what we call the process of that perfection. It may not be a distinct place, and it may take only a moment, but it is logical to believe that such an event must occur.

Also, indulgences are not “bought.” They are earned through spiritually beneficial acts (including Bible reading). At one time, donating money to the poor or to the Church itself was considered such an act, which is where the notion of “buying indulgences” comes from. Because some preachers misused that idea, indulgences are no longer associated with money in any way.

Usagi

 

[East_Anglican]

Christians have universally recognized the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Outside of what is revealed in the Bible, the early non-canonical reference to the real presence is in the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch around 105 AD:

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3).

and…

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1).

If I’m not mistaken the first time the real presence was rejected was in the 12th century.

All Christians be,lieve in The Real precence because they believe Jesus when he said “When two or three are gathered in my name there I’ll be in their midst.”

We can trace it back to the shewbread in the temple also. I hold to the Lutheran view that his body is present within the bread but it is still bread and does not change.

 

[East_Anglican]

Hi,

I’m not Catholic, but an Orthodox Christian - specifically Greek Orthodox.

All Orthodox and Catholic Christians each have something unique, our Church leaders have unbroken Apostolic Succession.

Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople goes all the way back to St. Andrew.

Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria goes all the way back to St. Mark

Greek Orthodox Church of Jeruselem goes all the way back to St. James

Antiochian Orthodox Church goes all the way back to St. Peter

Roman Catholic Church goes all the way back to Sts. Peter & Paul

It is interesting to note that each part of Christ’s Historical Church which can be proven through the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession each have always taught from the beginning that eating the Holy Eucharist is eating the very Body and very Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. While the only churches who do not teach that are all ones that have popped up out of no where over the last 500 years.

Statues? That is not something that was in the ancient Church; however, Icons have been in the Church and considered “windows of heaven” since St. Luke the Apostle wrote the first one. The first Icon ever written was St. Luke made - it was made while the Theotokos - Mary, Mother of God was still alive at the time and the Icon was of Mary holding Jesus. Icons have always be part of the worship in the Christian Church.

You don’t have to become a Catholic to enter into the Historical Church of Christ, you can become Orthodox - there are tons of protestant converts into both Churches and each will welcome you. You ought to prayerfully consider joining one of them though so you can be a part of the Church Jesus gave His very Life to establish.

Even Nestorious could claim Apostolc Succesion therefore it is meaningless.