Why I Am Not A Roman Catholic

[East_Anglican]

Oops double post.

 

[East_Anglican]

The Saints in heaven are capable of knowing our prayers to them through the Beatific Vision (not through telepathy or some sort of omniscience) since God knows all things and can make our prayers known to them.

This makes intercession possible, the reason why intercession is good is because God is pleased with it since it reflects fraternal love between Christians and because it shows our humility.

Sometimes pictures and statues are used to represent Saints. We pray (that is, petition) who the image represents, and not the image itself.

Hope this helps!

God bless,
Tomasz

Where’s the the Beatific Vision in The Bible?

Why didn’t paul ever pray to saints?

 

[East_Anglican]

Then your Bible must not have in it the below-referenced verses. From Confirmation:

I believe Confirmation is a very powerful service. It’s just that by Holy Scripture we can not make the claim that it is a sacrement on the same par as Baptism and Eucharist.

 

[East_Anglican]

Then you must not be very familiar with Jewish or Christian theology. How do you reconcile “all have sinned” with “nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]”? If purgatory is a “medieval superstition” then how is it that Monica, mother of Augustine, asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses? This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

And from The Roots of Purgatory:

I’ll read the linked article check the context of the sources and get back to you on it.

I very much doubt the Church Fathers cited were talking about purgatory because it was not an issue at the time.

Please be aware that it is possible to glean what ever belief you want from the church fathers.

 

[jim1130]

All Christians be,lieve in The Real precence because they believe Jesus when he said “When two or three are gathered in my name there I’ll be in their midst.”

We can trace it back to the shewbread in the temple also. I hold to the Lutheran view that his body is present within the bread but it is still bread and does not change.

If you hold to the Lutheran view then you should not have any trouble with Mary.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, By Dr. Ludwig Ott (Edited in English by James Canon Bastible, D.D., Translated from the German by Patrick Lynch, Ph.D., Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, IL 61105, Fourth edition May 1960:

Page 216 – “Luther criticized many forms of veneration to Mary, but held fast to the traditional belief in Mary’s Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, her Immaculate Conception, and her intercession.”

Luther’s position would certainly contradict your stance on Mary.

 

[East_Anglican]

A couple of points.
God is God of the living, not the dead.

Matt 22:32
[32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:27
[27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Luke 20:38
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

So I wouldn’t consider the saints in heaven dead.
The old testament says talking to the dead is wrong. I agree!!!
The dead spoken of cannot be the same as those in heaven since God is the God of the LIVING!

The church is the body of Christ.
How many bodies does Christ have?
Is there one body in heaven of the saints there and one body on earth of the Christians here?
No. There is only one body of Christ.

Can death separate someone from the body of Christ?
Those in heaven and on earth are of the same body of Christ.

Romans 12:5
[5] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

You call those in heaven ‘dead’.
I would think that our life in heaven will be more of a reality than what we experience on Earth.
Our life here is a mere shadow of what our life will be in heaven.
Those is heaven are MORE alive than we are.
I don’t understand you calling them ‘dead’.

Now … this God of the Living that we both believe in is all powerful.
He’s powerful enough to give power to others.
This is evidenced with Jesus (given all powers on heaven and earth) and what power Jesus gave to the apostles (to heal, to drive out demons, and to forgive sins).

You act like those in heaven are not even paying attention to us on earth.

Rev 8:4
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Here, we see an angel offering the prayers of the saints to God.
Why oh why wouldn’t these prayers have gone straight to God?
Why is this angel involved at all with the prayers of individuals?

michel

Paul said that The dead in christ shall rise first. I as paul meant physically dead. Let’s not get messed up on semantics.

 

[Carjack1]

This is an uncharitable post in which lies are being spouted out as truth!!! I am sorry that you believe your own lies

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Why don’t we gothrough each of these in turn ? A dozen issues raised in a single post cannot possibly be resolved in a single post. ​

 

[happilycatholic]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Then you are what? You are simply a catholic that doesn’t practice in the way that you should. Once you accepted the New Convenant at your Baptism you became part of the Church Universal.

There were two covenants, two. One in the OT given to the Jews and one in the NT given to the Christians (catholics). You are either a Jew or a catholic, period.

Say what you want. Do what you want. Call yourself what you like. But make a choice cause there weren’t any East Anglican Apostles my friend.

 

[East_Anglican]

Usagi,

You have given some very good replies. I shall look at them before posting replies.

 

[East_Anglican]

If you hold to the Lutheran view then you should not have any trouble with Mary.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, By Dr. Ludwig Ott (Edited in English by James Canon Bastible, D.D., Translated from the German by Patrick Lynch, Ph.D., Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, IL 61105, Fourth edition May 1960:

Page 216 – “Luther criticized many forms of veneration to Mary, but held fast to the traditional belief in Mary’s Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, her Immaculate Conception, and her intercession.”

Luther’s position would certainly contradict your stance on Mary.

I said my understanding of The Eucharist is Lutheran. i didn’t say I agree with everything he siad.

The only person I choose to fully agree with is christ because he’s the only one that is always right.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Baptism makes you a member of the Church, yes. However, there is only one Baptism, not Catholic Baptism and Protestant Baptism. Persons baptized in another Christian communion are truly baptized, and the Catholic Church does not rebaptize them.

It is sometimes useful to note whether someone was “baptized Catholic” or not (as it can have bearing on whether they ought to undergo instruction before entering full communion with the Catholic Church), but the nature of the baptism is the same in both cases.

This is false. Latin-rite Catholic children receive their First Communion quite awhile before Confirmation. Eastern-rite Catholic children are baptized, confirmed, and given Holy Communion on the same occasion, shortly after birth.

The term “confirmation” does not appear in the Bible, it’s true, but there are New Testament references to believers who have been baptized, but have yet to recieve the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the apostles’ hands.There we see the beginnings of the distinction between baptism and confirmation.

“Dead saints” are still on the “man” side of the “God and man” equation, and therefore do not usurp the unique mediatorship of Christ. We believe that, through their participation in the one Body of Christ, our brothers and sisters in Heaven can intercede for us in prayer before God, just as our earthly brothers and sisters can.

If someone’s relationship with a saint is getting in the way of their relationship with Christ, the Church most certainly would not approve.

“Statues” are not mediators between anyone and anyone, as they are not alive. Sacred images can help us to focus our minds on Christ and the saints. If they are not helpful in that way, or even harmful, then one should not use them.

It is, in fact, exactly the opposite. Someone else already quoted the passage in John 20 where Jesus grants His apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. We believe that we are able to appreciate Christ’s mercy and forgiveness all the more when we can actually hear the words being spoken by an Earthly representative of the Lord. Naturally, we are still being forgiven by Christ, through the ministry of the priest, not by the priest as a fellow human being.

While I know they don’t have quite the same role, don’t Anglicans have priests as well? It seems odd that you would put “priest” in scare quotes.

Very true. But He did provide leaders in His Church, and gave them the power to appoint others after them. Naturally, these leaders should govern according to Christ’s principle of servant leadership, and not as tyrants. That they sometimes fail is not an indictment of the entire idea of Christian leadership.

[continued]

There are as many dead saints as square circles or holy demons or evil Christs: the phrase is a contradiction in terms, so it’s utterly meangless. Not to mention being opposed to the NT.​

It’s not Catholics who worship dead men, but those who honour dead public figures other than those who have “fallen asleep” “in Christ”: we know the Saints are alive, but as for public figures, if they are in Hell, then then they are dead. And if Protestants honour them, they are are honouring the enemies of Christ - which the Church does not do. It is not Catholics who worship the dead - not unless Christ the Lord is a stinking & rotten corpse. Only a dead & damned Christ ca have dead Sants.

 

[mercygate]

Even Nestorious could claim Apostolc Succesion therefore it is meaningless.

You say you are “East Anglican” – so what about the Apostolic Succession claimed by the bishops of the Anglican Communion? They certainly don’t think it is “meaningless.” In fact, after the publication of Apostolicae curae, Anglicans took considerable pains to infuse unquestioned Apostolic lines ito their Ordination ceremonies.

As for your OP, you didn’t think that stuff up all by yourself, did you? It’s an embarrassment to Anglicanism. Wait till GKC and Contarini get hold of you, you naughty thing.

 

[chris_molter]

It’s an embarrassment to Anglicanism. Wait till GKC and Contarini get hold of you, you naughty thing.

Seriously, though, that this… well… viewpoint… is within the boundaries of ‘orthodox’ Anglicanism is one of the primary reasons I’m no longer Anglican.

 

[jim1130]

I said my understanding of The Eucharist is Lutheran. i didn’t say I agree with everything he siad.

The only person I choose to fully agree with is christ because he’s the only one that is always right.

So you pick and choose what you believe? Do you also incorporate Calvin into your own religion?

 

[With_Questions]

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

Now I am not a great big fan of Catholic Mary stuff.

But

Where does the “goddess Diana” come from??

You know, when I say that “I believe ‘A’”, I really resent it when people twist it and say that I really believe ‘B’.

So, unless there are Catholics here who are willing to 'fess up and admit that they really worship the goddess Diana, I think I would be inclined to take them at their word when they say they do not.

You know the Golden Rule and all that.

Unless you would have others do unto you by misrepresenting your beliefs.

 

[TomaszA]

All Christians be,lieve in The Real precence because they believe Jesus when he said “When two or three are gathered in my name there I’ll be in their midst.”

I don’t disagree that Jesus is present spiritually when people gather to honor Him, however there is a real difference between this and those who actually consume Him and therefore mysteriously unify with Him physically and spiritually.

We can trace it back to the shewbread in the temple also. I hold to the Lutheran view that his body is present within the bread but it is still bread and does not change.

If you recognize that Jesus is present in the bread then why do you object to worshiping His Body? If we worship the Son of God as man, why not under the appearance of bread?

Lastly, as you are probably aware, Catholics believe the substance is transformed (hence transubstantiation) while the appearance (i.e. the matter) remains the same.

 

[TomaszA]

Where’s the the Beatific Vision in The Bible?

The Beatific Vision is the immediate intuitive knowledge of God that the Elect in heaven enjoy. It is often described in Scripture as seeing God face to face:

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”
Matthew 5:8

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”
1 Corinthians 13:12

“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.”
1 John 3:2

Why didn’t paul ever pray to saints?

I’m not so sure he didn’t. Just to venture a guess, the practice may have grown as the number of martyrs grew and consequently, understanding that the Body of Christ is composed of living Christians on earth and living Christians in Heaven unified through Jesus.

 

[GKC]

You say you are “East Anglican” – so what about the Apostolic Succession claimed by the bishops of the Anglican Communion? They certainly don’t think it is “meaningless.” In fact, after the publication of Apostolicae curae, Anglicans took considerable pains to infuse unquestioned Apostolic lines ito their Ordination ceremonies.

As for your OP, you didn’t think that stuff up all by yourself, did you? It’s an embarrassment to Anglicanism. Wait till GKC and Contarini get hold of you, you naughty thing.

I see only one hint, and that not a clear one, that EA is Anglican in any meaningful sense. But I will not deny that I have met Anglicans way over on the reformed edge who might sound a little like this.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[ralphinal]

I wonder if he is using the term to mean British and not member of the Church of England?