Why I Am Not A Roman Catholic

[Jade_Tiger]

:clapping: Cazayoux, that is amazing insight. I have never before heard a more deep and reasonable defence of praying to saints. Needless to say, I completely agree.:clapping:

 

[GKC]

I wonder if he is using the term to mean British and not member of the Church of England?

Or even Free Church of England. He may be identfying locale, not affliation. I note his location.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Seriously, though, that this… well… viewpoint… is within the boundaries of ‘orthodox’ Anglicanism is one of the primary reasons I’m no longer Anglican.

There’s a lot of odd things within the elastic boundaries of orthodox Anglicanism, but this doesn’t feel like some of them.

GKC

 

[Harpazo]

I said my understanding of The Eucharist is Lutheran. i didn’t say I agree with everything he siad.

The only person I choose to fully agree with is christ because he’s the only one that is always right.

Shlom lokh,

Hold on a second. You just contradicted yourself. Your “understanding of the Eucharist is Lutheran” implies that it is the one you agree with and align yourself with. Then only two sentences after that you say the only person you “fully agree with is Christ.” Which is it? Christ or Luther?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Usagi]

Shlom lokh,

Hold on a second. You just contradicted yourself. Your “understanding of the Eucharist is Lutheran” implies that it is the one you agree with and align yourself with. Then only two sentences after that you say the only person you “fully agree with is Christ.” Which is it? Christ or Luther?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

I don’t think he’s contradicting himself there. He agrees with the Lutheran belief on one point, but not on others. He does not feel any obligation to follow Luther’s opinions 100%, as he fully agrees only with Christ. Makes sense to me.

Usagi

 

[Peter_J]

^^ The way I see it, it’s rather like when Catholics and Orthodox speaking of “assenting to what the Church teaches”.

Protestants almost invariably respond with “Well, how do you know such-and-such is really a Church teaching?”

In the same way, “I agree with Christ on everything” sounds nice, but then the question is, How do you know what Christ’s teachings are?

(Another area in which we are not really so different.)

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Simple:
I disagree on most of the vatican teachings !!
No any further explanation necessary !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), october 24, 2008

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jesus I know, Peter I know, and every unbroken successor of Peter’s apostolic authority from the first century, but I have never heard of an Eastern Anglican, you must be new to christianity? It is interesting how you use Catholic terminology and twist her apostolic teachings to your bias opinions. You have place alot on the plate here for yourself. Because now you have to show proof to your misinformed negative comments about my 2000 year old unchanged Christian faith, to which I can back up my faith with facts and recorded history. Does your Eastern Anglican faith date more than 500 years? Is King Henry the eight your founder? who wanted a divorce, and the Pope would not grant him a divorce? are you still sore over this historical fact? or are we to suspect another?

 

[GKC]

Jesus I know, Peter I know, and every unbroken successor of Peter’s apostolic authority from the first century, but I have never heard of an Eastern Anglican, you must be new to christianity? It is interesting how you use Catholic terminology and twist her apostolic teachings to your bias opinions. You have place alot on the plate here for yourself. Because now you have to show proof to your misinformed negative comments about my 2000 year old unchanged Christian faith, to which I can back up my faith with facts and recorded history. Does your Eastern Anglican faith date more than 500 years? Is King Henry the eight your founder? who wanted a divorce, and the Pope would not grant him a divorce? are you still sore over this historical fact? or are we to suspect another?

Hank wanted a decree of nullity. Very common at the time. As were political factors in such a decision. Very common indeed. This time, Hank was out-gunned.

GKC

 

[East_Anglican]

Right lets go through some of this shall we?

You say you are “East Anglican” – so what about the Apostolic Succession claimed by the bishops of the Anglican Communion? They certainly don’t think it is “meaningless.” In fact, after the publication of Apostolicae curae, Anglicans took considerable pains to infuse unquestioned Apostolic lines ito their Ordination ceremonies.

As for your OP, you didn’t think that stuff up all by yourself, did you? It’s an embarrassment to Anglicanism. Wait till GKC and Contarini get hold of you, you naughty thing.

Yes, some Anglicans believe in Apostolic succesion but some do not. I think it’s dogmatic waffle. Which Anglican Communion are you refering to?

Seriously, though, that this… well… viewpoint… is within the boundaries of ‘orthodox’ Anglicanism is one of the primary reasons I’m no longer Anglican.

You probably wasn’t Anglican in the first place.

I don’t disagree that Jesus is present spiritually when people gather to honor Him, however there is a real difference between this and those who actually consume Him and therefore mysteriously unify with Him physically and spiritually.

If you recognize that Jesus is present in the bread then why do you object to worshiping His Body? If we worship the Son of God as man, why not under the appearance of bread?

Lastly, as you are probably aware, Catholics believe the substance is transformed (hence transubstantiation) while the appearance (i.e. the matter) remains the same.

I’m Consub myself. As it is still bread you end up worshiping mere bread as well as Christ.

The Beatific Vision is the immediate intuitive knowledge of God that the Elect in heaven enjoy. It is often described in Scripture as seeing God face to face:

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”
Matthew 5:8

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”
1 Corinthians 13:12

“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.”
1 John 3:2

I’m not so sure he didn’t. Just to venture a guess, the practice may have grown as the number of martyrs grew and consequently, understanding that the Body of Christ is composed of living Christians on earth and living Christians in Heaven unified through Jesus.

Nice scripture but you have to stretch them a bit to get praying to saints in Heaven with them.

I see only one hint, and that not a clear one, that EA is Anglican in any meaningful sense. But I will not deny that I have met Anglicans way over on the reformed edge who might sound a little like this.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

Well as an Anglo/Catholic you probably disagree with a big chunk of the 39 Articles anyway. We the Charismatic/Evangelical Anglcans adhere to the 39 Articles.

I wonder if he is using the term to mean British and not member of the Church of England?

I am a member of The Church of England who lives in East Anglia. My handle is a pun.

 

[With_Questions]

Right lets go through some of this shall we?

I note with interest that you have not supplied any evidence to back up you “Godess Diana” assertion.

 

[sambos671]

Right lets go through some of this shall we?

Yes, some Anglicans believe in Apostolic succesion but some do not. I think it’s dogmatic waffle. Which Anglican Communion are you refering to?

You probably wasn’t Anglican in the first place.

I’m Consub myself. As it is still bread you end up worshiping mere bread as well as Christ.

Nice scripture but you have to stretch them a bit to get praying to saints in Heaven with them.

Well as an Anglo/Catholic you probably disagree with a big chunk of the 39 Articles anyway. We the Charismatic/Evangelical Anglcans adhere to the 39 Articles.

I am a member of The Church of England who lives in East Anglia. My handle is a pun.

I lived in East Anglia for 6 years just North of Huntingdon but before Peterborough. I have some fond memories there. However, I’m not a member of the Church of England.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal.**

Yes, they do.

 

[happilycatholic]

** As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal.**

Yes, they do.

Yes, you tell him bpbasilphix!

It’s kinda hard to do with a dead lamb. You kinda have to have a New Covenant with a living God who tells you, “Take this and eat it, it is my flesh”.

 

[TomaszA]

I’m Consub myself. As it is still bread you end up worshiping mere bread as well as Christ.

So does that mean people were wrong to worship Jesus? Since they would be worshiping mere flesh as well as God the Son?

Nice scripture but you have to stretch them a bit to get praying to saints in Heaven with them.

I posted that scripture because you wanted proof for the Beatific Vision, I did not intend to prove the veneration of Saints with it.

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[mercygate]

Right lets go through some of this shall we?

Yes, some Anglicans believe in Apostolic succesion but some do not. I think it’s dogmatic waffle. Which Anglican Communion are you refering to?

The Church of England and the Episcopal Church in the United States, and almost every ecclesial community in the “continuum.” When Graham Leonard, the Anglican Bishop of London, was ordained as a Catholic Priest it was sub conditione, since he was able to produce verification of his authentic Apostolic lines.

 

[GKC]

Well as an Anglo/Catholic you probably disagree with a big chunk of the 39 Articles anyway. We the Charismatic/Evangelical Anglcans adhere to the 39 Articles.

I am a member of The Church of England who lives in East Anglia. My handle is a pun.

Yep. A fair chunk of them. Since they are not normative for any save ordinands of the CoE (technically), that’s not all that unusual.

And you are approximately what I suspected you might be (if the name wasn’t the only connection). Approximately, I say.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[tassitus]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Wow.

Like a man on a hill shining a flashlight at the sun.

 

[Callin]

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

When Jesus sent the apostles to forgive sins, was that a trick to prevent people from confessing to God directly?

John 20:21-23: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
East Anglican:

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry.

Yes, it is. Good thing the Church does not teach that. They merely help focus our minds on who we are praying to, sort of like a church does nowadays.

Maybe you saw people praying near statues and assumed that the statues were the target of their prayers? :ehh: Never have I heard anyone say, “Statue of Mary, please pray for me.” Have you?

 

[Peter_J]

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

And let’s not forget “Confess your sins to one another.”

Maybe you saw people praying near statues and assumed that the statues were the target of their prayers? :ehh: Never have I heard anyone say, “Statue of Mary, please pray for me.” Have you?