Why I believe many Gays turn away from the Church.

[Armor_of_Light]

Who does Christ consider brothers and sisters?

Too many who try to “fraternally correct” another try to do so by rebuking them and do you know what the Bible says on rebuking?

We’re not all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Oh…my mistake! Baptism…duh.

I have been fraternally corrected.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

We’re not all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Oh…my mistake! Baptism…duh.

I have been fraternally corrected.

Indeed.

Fraternal correction does not work with those who are unwilling or unable to listen.

 

[Bill_7154]

We’re not all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Oh…my mistake! Baptism…duh.

I have been fraternally corrected.

Are we all not considered ‘children of God’? or is this a mistaken belief as well? If we are, what is the difference between this and being ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’?

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Are we all not considered ‘children of God’? or is this a mistaken belief as well? If we are, what is the difference between this and being ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’?

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

We are all children of God. The difference between the two rest on the difference between the words “of” and “in”.

 

[Ignatius]

They just believe that the Church is wrong on the issue and that God either does not exist, or does not hate homosexuality.

So, why would they even consider being Catholic (see OP) if they feel that Catholic Teachings are wrong or don’t believe in God. That doesn’t make any sense!

 

[Bill_7154]

We are all children of God. The difference between the two rest on the difference between the words “of” and “in”.

I think I understand but could you expand upon your answer please to help me understand? To help me make sure I have it clear? This is not a sarcastic post, I’ve just recently returned to the Catholic Faith after being away for many years so learning what many take for granted is part of my journey.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

So, why would they even consider being Catholic (see OP) if they feel that Catholic Teachings are wrong or don’t believe in God. That doesn’t make any sense!

Welcome to reality, right? How many things/beliefs in this world don’t make sense.

 

[markeverett49]

But it occured to me that you might find this site interesting.

From: Fr. Chad Ripperger, F.S.S.P, Ph.D.

sensustraditionis.org/texts_online.html

then choose: Pastoral Theology and the Philosophy of Man

*"Hence, in the last forty years, there has been many who
have drained their pastoral theology of theology itself and replaced it with psychology. While one must have mental health in order to advance spiritually, nevertheless, psychology cannot be substituted for pastoral theology for two reasons. The first is that most priests are not adequately trained in psychology, but the second, more important reason is that psychology does not, in itself, take into account the final end of man. As a science, it is not directed, nor can it direct man to something beyond himself since the science is concerned with man himself.

Connected to this is the view that spirituality consists in emotions. This came from Friedrich Schleiermacher who said that piety was an emotion rather than a filial love of God and love of neighbor because he is in God’s image.

Another dangerous philosophy of man is …" *

etc.

My apologies to the op for going off topic here.

Hey, I enjoyed that topic! That excerpt you posted struck a chord with me. That’s the way I see it too.

 

[codymack]

Ive actually come into the Catholic church because of my parishes open arms policy with gays. No, they do not support gay marriage, nor am I expecting them to… I for one am glad to find a church that the priest knows Im gay and doesn’t care.

My uncle who is a Protestant preacher no longer talks to me simply because Ive come out and other now know of my homosexual-ness. My own grandmother who is a devout Baptist will not allow me into her house because her Pastor knows that Im gay and has asked her not to accept my lifestyle. Im not bringing slamming gays around. 99% of my fellow gay friends seem to be straight at first encounter.

But we all have final judgement, and we all learn to love one another eventually. I forgive those who have turned me away, and will still embrace them the day they come around, even if it is not in this Earthly life!

Im alway open to discussion about homosexuality in Christianity, so if anyone has any questions or would just like to converse over the topic, shoot me a message!

Until then!!

-Cody Mack

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I think I understand but could you expand upon your answer please to help me understand? To help me make sure I have it clear? This is not a sarcastic post, I’ve just recently returned to the Catholic Faith after being away for many years so learning what many take for granted is part of my journey.

Thanks,
Bill

in: expressing inclusion or involvement
of: indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging

brothers and sisters in Christ I suppose is just another way of saying your fellow Christians, that’s why Armor of Light said “Oh…my mistake! Baptism…duh.”. Children of God is expressing well that we are his children (although not begotten).

Ive actually come into the Catholic church because of my parishes open arms policy with gays. No, they do not support gay marriage, nor am I expecting them to… I for one am glad to find a church that the priest knows Im gay and doesn’t care.

**My uncle who is a Protestant preacher no longer talks to me simply because Ive come out and other now know of my homosexual-ness. My own grandmother who is a devout Baptist will not allow me into her house because her Pastor knows that Im gay and has asked her not to accept my lifestyle. Im not bringing slamming gays around. ** 99% of my fellow gay friends seem to be straight at first encounter.

But we all have final judgement, and we all learn to love one another eventually. I forgive those who have turned me away, and will still embrace them the day they come around, even if it is not in this Earthly life!

Im alway open to discussion about homosexuality in Christianity, so if anyone has any questions or would just like to converse over the topic, shoot me a message!

Until then!!

-Cody Mack

That’s kind of what I was talking about by those who were pushed away, for those people the only treatment that works is loving them.

 

[epan]

Actually he didn’t say homosexuals *were *demons, but that they have a demon, which I understand as meaning that homosexuals are under the influence of Satan when they commit homosexual acts; in other words, homosexual activity is inherently evil. This is perfectly valid from the standpoint of moral theology. What does your church say about homosexual acts?

One hears the phrase, “demonizing” a person in speech. I was just wondering if that is what that statement was. So, to you that colloquialism would mean to state that another person is actually a demon? I was actually wondering if what people mean by that is to say that a person is under the influence.

 

[epan]

Here is the contradiction which many of us see repeatedly in discussions of this sort.

If one is an atheist (or a non-theist), why would you care about what Catholics believe? Second, why would you (anyone) be so persistent about arguing against beliefs which you find (variously) humorous, ridiculous, absurd, embarrassing, nonsensical, illogical, etc.? Third, why would you care about social positions held by various religious groups?

It seems that most Catholics are not threatened by the opinions of atheists and their demonstrated opposition to religion. As long as Catholics are not prevented from their Constitutional Free Exercise of Religion (individually and as an institution), most Catholics are unconcerned about “silencing” atheists, not to mention having no interest in interminably visiting atheists’ blogs and message boards in an effort to “convince” them how wrong they are.

I have a sense of quiet self-assurance about my religious beliefs. That is also true for people of many other faith traditions (Jews, Protestants of various sects, Muslims, etc.)

I do not observe that atheists on this discussion forum are quietly self-assured, however. If they were, they would not bother to visit, open threads, and argue endlessly about why Catholics have certain moral positions. Rather, they would find the Catholic opinion irrelevant.

Odd, that those who find Catholicism most irrelevant are the ones who most demand the approval of Catholics and their Church.

I think that most atheists are quietly self assured, as you describe. The ones that speak up are more motivated to spread their message, and are a minority. The same is true among most groups. The majority goes about their lives quietly. A minority is more politically active.

To find an atheist on a Catholic apologist site, implies to me that the atheist is engaged in the topic of religion (or non religion), and has something that he or she wants to say. Whereas, Catholics here, might have many other reasons for browsing about.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Is there any research showing that a significant percentage of gays have turned away from the Church? Further, how would it compare to the percentage of, say, divorced men, or libertines?

You don’t here about the ones that didn’t, mostly because they are rather disinclined as a group to talk about it.

One hears the phrase, “demonizing” a person in speech. I was just wondering if that is what that statement was. So, to you that colloquialism would mean to state that another person is actually a demon? I was actually wondering if what people mean by that is to say that a person is under the influence.

Demonising: verb; portray as wicked and threatening.

 

[markeverett49]

You don’t here about the ones that didn’t, mostly because they are rather disinclined as a group to talk about it…

I get that but I wonder a) how many have turned away, b) further, how many have joined the Episcopal Church, and c) whether the number of people leaving the Episcopal Church for the Catholic Church outnumbers the one leaving.

Here’s one reason I think about this. I was raised Protestant (-frankly, anti-Catholic) and am now Catholic. I’ve heard people in both realms talk about Paul’s “difficult verses” and how imoprotant it is to make women feel welcome in Church, and not only welcome but respected and encouraged to participate. Then I read a book that pointed out Christianity has always appealed to women more than men (-which was unusual for a religion in the ancient world) and that the Church really should do more outreach to adult men, because THAT was the group most likely to leave the Church. Since then, I’ve often thought it’s good to check one’s impressions against reliable data.

Given that, the question about gay men leaving the Church becomes more complicated than it at first seems. The emphasis is usually on “gay” (-we are making the gays feel unwelcome here) but if we factor in that adult men are the most likely people in a Christian Church to hate having to be there, then it is not so obvious that when a gay man leaves the Church it is because he is gay but a real possibility that it is because he is a man. (On a related matter, should one expect lesbians to leave the Church at the same rate as gay men do? If lesbians leave at a smaller rate, then Church teaching on homosexuality may not be the driving force…)

 

[BroomWagon]

We had a little bit of this “Rainbow Sash” movement in a Church here, the story better explains it:

Gay and lesbian Catholics and their supporters wearing the rainbow sash, were yesterday refused holy communion at Melbourne’s St Patrick’s Cathedral.

It is the first time the group has sought communion at St Patrick’s Cathedral since Archbishop George Pell left for Sydney.

cathnews.acu.edu.au/106/10.php

A sort of related story to this thread.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I get that but I wonder a) how many have turned away, b) further, how many have joined the Episcopal Church, and c) whether the number of people leaving the Episcopal Church for the Catholic Church outnumbers the one leaving.

Here’s one reason I think about this. I was raised Protestant (-frankly, anti-Catholic) and am now Catholic. I’ve heard people in both realms talk about Paul’s “difficult verses” and how imoprotant it is to make women feel welcome in Church, and not only welcome but respected and encouraged to participate. Then I read a book that pointed out Christianity has always appealed to women more than men (-which was unusual for a religion in the ancient world) and that the Church really should do more outreach to adult men, because THAT was the group most likely to leave the Church. Since then, I’ve often thought it’s good to check one’s impressions against reliable data.

Given that, the question about gay men leaving the Church becomes more complicated than it at first seems. The emphasis is usually on “gay” (-we are making the gays feel unwelcome here) but if we factor in that adult men are the most likely people in a Christian Church to hate having to be there, then it is not so obvious that when a gay man leaves the Church it is because he is gay but a real possibility that it is because he is a man. (On a related matter, should one expect lesbians to leave the Church at the same rate as gay men do? If lesbians leave at a smaller rate, then Church teaching on homosexuality may not be the driving force…)

You have asked for something which is almost impossible to quantify because you are dealing with a subset of a subset.

 

[markeverett49]

You have asked for something which is almost impossible to quantify because you are dealing with a subset of a subset.

Yeah, I know it’s not something I can look up online, but you know, since it ISN’T something we can readily check, why is the assumption that the Church’s teachings on homosexuality have caused many gay men to turn away from the Church?

 

[Faithdancer]

One hears the phrase, “demonizing” a person in speech. I was just wondering if that is what that statement was. So, to you that colloquialism would mean to state that another person is actually a demon? I was actually wondering if what people mean by that is to say that a person is under the influence.

People are people, and demons are demons, two completely different species so no, a person cannot be a demon. A person can be possessed by a demon, though, and I don’t think it matters in possession whether the possessed is heterosexual or homosexual. There is a big difference between being possessed by a demon and being under the influence of the prince of demons, Satan. I definitely think that any organized effort to subvert the Holy Sacrament of Marriage would be Satanic, if indeed there is such an organized effort.

As far as “demonizing” I think it’s used as a comparative, i.e. “person x is like a demon” and not to say that person x *is *a demon.

 

[djames99]

Hey, I enjoyed that topic! That excerpt you posted struck a chord with me. That’s the way I see it too.

Thanks Mark,

and it also reveals my Traditionalist leanings.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Yeah, I know it’s not something I can look up online, but you know, since it ISN’T something we can readily check, why is the assumption that the Church’s teachings on homosexuality have caused many gay men to turn away from the Church?

Most heterosexuals couldn’t bear what the Church asks of homosexuals so why would you expect larger portions of gays to be able to take it? The fundamentally both share the same human nature though concupiscence might be expressed in somewhat different ways.