Why I believe many Gays turn away from the Church.

[CopticChristian]

Most heterosexuals couldn’t bear what the Church asks of homosexuals so why would you expect larger portions of gays to be able to take it? The fundamentally both share the same human nature though concupiscence might be expressed in somewhat different ways.

Dakota,

I respect your opinions and your presence. I ask you not to kill the messenger and understand the message. Father Carapi once said that homosexuals and priests are called to the same life. Your calling is no different than any priest, any bishop, any Pope.

Your calling was the calling of Paul and of course his Master Christ himself…for this I honor and respect you as you are here with us honoring that call…all these men are heterosexual.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Dakota,

I respect your opinions and your presence. I ask you not to kill the messenger and understand the message. Father Carapi once said that homosexuals and priests are called to the same life. Your calling is no different than any priest, any bishop, any Pope.

Your calling was the calling of Paul and of course his Master Christ himself…for this I honor and respect you as you are here with us honoring that call…all these men are heterosexual.

You mean Father Corapi that one priest who was popular until it turned out he was violating addicted to drugs, unchaste, grossly violating his vow of poverty et cetera?

 

[Holly3278]

I think that part of the reason why so many in the GLBT community reject the Church is because they view all Christians, including Catholics, as extremists who hate them. I can definitely see why they might think this way. I have been somewhat hateful towards them in the past, especially when I am online. I regret this behavior of mine and I am trying to be more loving towards ALL people, including the GLBT community.

That said, I actually struggle with same sex temptations myself and I can understand why some people see the Church as being hateful. Most people would call me bisexual and I guess that would be accurate with the exception that I have never sinned against chastity with members of the same sex. I used to be a very liberal person and I “came out” to my family back when I was real liberal. Well, I was teased and tormented by a few family members and a few other people that my family members outed me to and that I outed myself to. I quite quickly went back in the “closet” and felt that all conservatives were hateful towards me and others who have same sex temptations.

I think it is true, to a certain extent, that there are people out there who can be quite hateful towards members of the GLBT community. I personally do not identify with that community (the GLBT community and the community of people who seem to hate the former) although I do struggle with temptations toward members of the same sex. So I can see why many people who do identify with that community (the GLBT community) would see Christians, including Catholics, and other conservatives as hateful toward them.

That said, I do understand the Church’s official teaching towards people who struggle with same sex temptation and I find it to be a very compassionate and Truthful teaching. I totally agree with what the Church has to say about the issue.

I think a lot of the reason why gays and others reject the Catholic Church is because they think we are the same as Fundamentalists and others. Some Fundamentalists do hate gays and that is very sad. The Catholic Church’s position, on the other hand, is a sort of middle way. The Church’s position calls us to be respectful and compassionate towards people who suffer from same sex temptation. The Church also teaches that unjust discrimination against people with same sex temptation is wrong. That does not mean that all forms of discrimination are wrong though. The Church also teaches that the homosexual orientation is objectively disordered. Again, I agree with this. And of course the Church teaches that all people must be chaste, including members of the GLBT community and heterosexuals.

So basically I think ignorance of what the Catholic Church really teaches is the main problem. If we can compassionately and respectfully teach the Truth that the Catholic Church teaches on this I think that a lot less people would reject the Catholic Church.

Once again I want to say that I do not reject what the Catholic Church teaches on any subject whatsoever. I do not understand completely everything that the Church teaches but I still assent to and believe all that the Catholic Church officially teaches. I live a life of celibacy and I try my best to always remain chaste. I have greatly improved on chastity in the past couple of years. I intend to continue improving on chastity. May God receive all the glory for any advancement in holiness that I make. I am a sinner and I am unworthy of the glory. I could not have made advances in holiness were it not for His grace and I still have a long way to go.

 

[CopticChristian]

You mean Father Corapi that one priest who was popular until it turned out he was violating addicted to drugs, unchaste, grossly violating his vow of poverty et cetera?

Dakota,

I asked you not to kill the messenger.

 

[markeverett49]

Most heterosexuals couldn’t bear what the Church asks of homosexuals so why would you expect larger portions of gays to be able to take it? The fundamentally both share the same human nature though concupiscence might be expressed in somewhat different ways.

All the priests and monks and nuns are asked to “bear” what the Church asks of homosexuals (-with the difference that giving up marriage is to give up a good while giving up homosexual acts is giving up something bad.) Single heterosexuals are asked to live chaste lives and many heterosexuals (-who are not in religious life) never marry.

I agree they share the same human nature but this doesn’t change the fact that homosexual acts are disordered. (There are disordered heterosexual desires too, and the Church asks all those heterosexuals to refrain from indulging them.)

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

All the priests and monks and nuns are asked to “bear” what the Church asks of homosexuals (-with the difference that giving up marriage is to give up a good while giving up homosexual acts is giving up something bad.) Single heterosexuals are asked to live chaste lives and many heterosexuals (-who are not in religious life) never marry.

I agree they share the same human nature but this doesn’t change the fact that homosexual acts are disordered. (There are disordered heterosexual desires too, and the Church asks all those heterosexuals to refrain from indulging them.)

The difference is that they chose vows of celibacy, no one made them join the priesthood or become a religious sister and they have plenty of support. Single heterosexuals had a chance to marry.

I never said it did.

 

[markeverett49]

The difference is that they chose vows of celibacy, no one made them join the priesthood or become a religious sister and they have plenty of support. Single heterosexuals had a chance to marry…

What is your point? Sex is reserved to the married. Homosexual couples cannot make a real marriage. This isn’t some wild idea the Church cooked up. The Church is bearing witness to the truth, tough as it may be for some to accept.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

What is your point? Sex is reserved to the married. Homosexual couples cannot make a real marriage. This isn’t some wild idea the Church cooked up. The Church is bearing witness to the truth, tough as it may be for some to accept.

It would be hard for most people to live with it and on top of that they get no support network.

 

[markeverett49]

It would be hard for most people to live with it and on top of that they get no support network.

I disagree about the ‘no support network.’ I think the number of gay men in America is about the same as the number of Native American men in America and I’m thinking the gay men get a LOT more social support.

 

[Bill_7154]

I think most gays turn away because they get the message (explicitly or implicitly) that homosexual is evil and they are uncomfortable being homosexual and being in a place where they feel they are thought of as evil.

I think it’s as simple as that.

One can argue “but they should recognize it’s a sin and work to be abstinant”, in today’s culture their own advocates are working in direct opposition to that (being abstinant, that it’s a sin).

A lot of people turn away from the church for a lot less I would guess.

 

[BroomWagon]

I think most gays turn away because they get the message (explicitly or implicitly) that homosexual is evil and they are uncomfortable being homosexual and being in a place where they feel they are thought of as evil.

I think it’s as simple as that.

One can argue “but they should recognize it’s a sin and work to be abstinant”, in today’s culture their own advocates are working in direct opposition to that (being abstinant, that it’s a sin).

A lot of people turn away from the church for a lot less I would guess.

Good observation, thank you.

Basically the point I was trying to make. It’s a difficult situation.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The difference is that they chose vows of celibacy, no one made them join the priesthood or become a religious sister and they have plenty of support.

If you believe that sexual abstinence is “easier” when it is vowed (chosen), then you are mistaken. There is a grace there which does accompany that commitment, but the struggles can remain fiery, furious, and tense. It is experienced as a sacrfice, regardless of the some of the joy accompanying that sacrifice. It is a state which combines pain with joy, deprivation with consecration. You seem to have a very dewy-eyed view of consecrated celibacy.

True, they have support. But so do non-consecrated singles (homosexual and heterosexual) who choose to take advantage of, or initiate, support groups. In fact, I will argue that the GLB gorups in parishes often have more support for celibacy, among themselves, than single heterosexuals do, who most often lack that unless there happens to be a singles group which also discusses such struggles. (The exception)

Single heterosexuals had a chance to marry.

Many never had a chance or will have a chance if they do not meet an appropriate mate. One can’t just “will” marriage or even a relationship. The pain of closed-off possibilities remains with them if they never meet someone.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

If you believe that sexual abstinence is “easier” when it is vowed (chosen), then you are mistaken. There is a grace there which does accompany that commitment, but the struggles can remain fiery, furious, and tense. It is experienced as a sacrfice, regardless of the some of the joy accompanying that sacrifice. It is a state which combines pain with joy, deprivation with consecration. You seem to have a very dewy-eyed view of consecrated celibacy.

True, they have support. But so do non-consecrated singles (homosexual and heterosexual) who choose to take advantage of, or initiate, support groups. In fact, I will argue that the GLB gorups in parishes often have more support for celibacy, among themselves, than single heterosexuals do, who most often lack that unless there happens to be a singles group which also discusses such struggles. (The exception)

Many never had a chance or will have a chance if they do not meet an appropriate mate. One can’t just “will” marriage or even a relationship. The pain of closed-off possibilities remains with them if they never meet someone.

You can at least have the fact that you freely chose it. When did I say it was easy?

I suppose for those lucky ones to live in a parish that has a group and it is accessible, but not everyone gets that luxury, even in populous places places there may not be an accessible (for example the closest group to me is over an hour away by car, three by mass transit and I’m talking one way).

You’re aware that marriages based on infatuation are a new thing right?

 

[Elizabeth502]

You’re aware that marriages based on infatuation are a new thing right?

I have no idea what you’re talking about, unless you’re trying unsuccessfully to be clever.

Someone else also asked you what your point was. Whatever it is, mine is this:

Sacrifice and deprivation are painful, whether willed or not, whether deliberate or accidental, whether homosexual or heterosexual, whether temporary or permanent. Comparing some as more difficult or more worthy of sympathy than someone else’s is a futile exercise. Suffering is not related to the object, but to the subject. It’s the person who suffers, and that suffering is differentiated by the subject’s personality, resources, and much else.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I have no idea what you’re talking about, unless you’re trying unsuccessfully to be clever.

Someone else also asked you what your point was. Whatever it is, mine is this:

Sacrifice and deprivation are painful, whether willed or not, whether deliberate or accidental, whether homosexual or heterosexual, whether temporary or permanent. Comparing some as more difficult or more worthy of sympathy than someone else’s is a futile exercise. Suffering is not related to the object, but to the subject. It’s the person who suffers, and that suffering is differentiated by the subject’s personality, resources, and much else.

That is not my point. I will type it up when I get a free hour.

 

[ivebeenshown]

If you think someone is causing the downfall of society, isn’t it only logical to hate them?

No. Maybe you don’t understand something here: perceiving that a person is doing something immoral does not logically result in hate towards that person.

Do you think parents hate their children when they fib? Or do they rebuke them in love?

 

[CopticChristian]

You know what, I do think a lot of Christians and Catholics hate gays. I don’t know how many times I have read that gays pushing for marriage are selfish and are going to be the cause of the downfall of society. **If you think someone is causing the downfall of society, isn’t it only logical to hate them? **
In some time the church will stop talking about gay marriage just as divorce is not talked about. I wonder how many people would leave the church if priests started preaching about how anyone that is divorced needs to stay abstinent or they are committing adultery. The church might not change their stance on gay marriage but they will certainly keep it hush hush in the future.

Interested,

This is a generalization. Is it one person? Of course not.

Is it many people? Yes. Is it people acting on their own or with the help of Lawyers? Well of course they don’t act on their own.

The logic is that things do things and the things people do ie the actions are eroding society and what can be hated is the result of the action. Next is to try to understand those that act and to do that takes time and to point out one individual or series of individuals is difficult.

So to hate groups or individuals is not the point…to hate that which is immoral is the point. If you don’t believe in morality then you are immune from seeing what those that believe in morality see and there is no common ground for discussion.

 

[michelleds]

Once again I want to say that I do not reject what the Catholic Church teaches on any subject whatsoever. I do not understand completely everything that the Church teaches but I still assent to and believe all that the Catholic Church officially teaches. I live a life of celibacy and I try my best to always remain chaste. I have greatly improved on chastity in the past couple of years. I intend to continue improving on chastity. May God receive all the glory for any advancement in holiness that I make. I am a sinner and I am unworthy of the glory. I could not have made advances in holiness were it not for His grace and I still have a long way to go.

Beautiful post, Holly! May God bless you and keep you.

 

[michelleds]

If you believe that sexual abstinence is “easier” when it is vowed (chosen), then you are mistaken. There is a grace there which does accompany that commitment, but the struggles can remain fiery, furious, and tense. It is experienced as a sacrifice, regardless of the some of the joy accompanying that sacrifice. It is a state which combines pain with joy, deprivation with consecration.

There can also be a grace for those who are non-consecrated but committed to living a life of holiness and chastity. I have found this to be true in my own life. But you are of course correct in saying that the grace does not diminish the struggle.

What I notice, however, is that some people continue to think of God’s call to chastity as a burden that is somehow unique or special to them or their group. This creates a situation where instead of seeing their attractions, concupiscence, or whatever as a sacrifice to be given up to and for God’s glory, they see themselves as a special victim.

Whether a priest or religious “chooses” or is “chosen”, I leave to another thread, but I challenge everyone else to think of their circumstances as offering the opportunity to CHOOSE to offer their suffering to Christ, rather that as something imposed on them.

Since I would gladly die a martyr’s death for my Lord, I think it is merely a preparatory act to sacrifice my disordered desires in obedience to his desire of holiness.

 

[Faithdancer]

Yes, agree with the posts emphasizing the universality of the requirement of chastity for all Catholics. For heterosexuals, chastity is either within marriage or within the single state of celibacy. For homosexuals, only the latter applies since there is no such thing as same sex “marriage.”