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babochka
Guest
Ecumenical councils.
Why I Cannot in Good Conscience be a Roman Catholic: The Papal Dogmas
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Emeraldlady
New member
I’m more wondering how contemporary moral and faith quandaries are resolved with an authoritative doctrine?Emeraldlady:
Ecumenical councils.
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Babaganoush
Guest
I think this is one of the few rational posts I have seen on the subject. I think that both sides of the discussion have an argument that has some validity. The bishop of Rome didn’t enjoy the same position he has now during the first millennium. The papacy developed over the past 1200 years into something it wasn’t. The intent of the development was partially to protect the church from secular rulers, and also partly to guarantee the truths of faith. But there is no doubt that it has developed.
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StAugustine
Guest
Why I in good conscience rejected Orthodoxy was that the Catholocity of the Church does not consist in the particularly local notion of “Romanity” as espoused by Romanides.
The Church is more than Greece and Russia. It is more than Byzantium. It is also not the Church of a single father or even a group of fathers, but above and beyond them and regulates how we relate to them.
The Church is more than Greece and Russia. It is more than Byzantium. It is also not the Church of a single father or even a group of fathers, but above and beyond them and regulates how we relate to them.
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rosejmj
Guest
Interesting. I have been curious about this. Maybe it is a little unexpected on a Catholic forum, but it can’t hurt to see another perspective
Emeraldlady
New member
But unless the Church and Peter’s Seat looked like it did in the aftermath of Pentecost then we can assume that development was the way forward and the way to continue.
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AlNg
Guest
" I Left Eastern Orthodoxy for the Church Led by Pope Francis"
Anyway, if the RC and the EO churches are SISTER Churches, why is conversion from one to another such a big deal?
Yes, but it goes both ways.
Anyway, if the RC and the EO churches are SISTER Churches, why is conversion from one to another such a big deal?
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Malka
Guest
I can not be a member of one of the Orthodox churches. For they are not in full communion with Rome.
A good article:
http://jameslikoudispage.com/Ecumenic/eocritic.htm
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The Ancients
Cyprian of Carthage (c. A.D. 253):
" . . . [the heretics] dare even to set sail . . . to the chair of Peter and the principal Church [Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source. . . whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors of faith [heresy] to have entrance” [Letters 59 (55), 14)].
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Ambrosiaster (c. A.D. 380-384):
“Whereas the whole world is God’s, yet is the Church said to be His house, of which [Pope] Damasus is at this day the ruler” (Ambrosiaster, Comment, in Epist. i. ad Tim. Inter. Op. S. Ambros.).
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Peter Chrysologus (c. A.D. 449):
“We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome” [Letters 25:2].
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Bishop of Patara [rebuking Justinian concerning the persecution of Pope Silverius] (c. A.D. 537):
“In this world there are many kings, not one, like that pope who is over the church of the whole world." [Liberatus in his Brevarium, c. 22].
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Columbanus (c. A.D. 600):
“[Rome] the principal See of the orthodox faith” [Columbanus, Epist. ad. Bonif. Pap. p, 353, Galland, tom. xii.].
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Maximus the Confessor (c. A.D. 650):
“. . . [the Apostolic See of Rome] from God the Incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman Pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him from the accusation. . . .” [Opuscula 12, Patrologia Graeca 91.141-146].
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Mar Abdisho of Soba (c. A.D. 1318):
“To the great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid in the grave there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs” [Memra; Risha 1].
“…And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the Church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema” [Memra 9; Risha 8].
A good article:
http://jameslikoudispage.com/Ecumenic/eocritic.htm
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The Ancients
Cyprian of Carthage (c. A.D. 253):
" . . . [the heretics] dare even to set sail . . . to the chair of Peter and the principal Church [Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source. . . whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors of faith [heresy] to have entrance” [Letters 59 (55), 14)].
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Ambrosiaster (c. A.D. 380-384):
“Whereas the whole world is God’s, yet is the Church said to be His house, of which [Pope] Damasus is at this day the ruler” (Ambrosiaster, Comment, in Epist. i. ad Tim. Inter. Op. S. Ambros.).
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Peter Chrysologus (c. A.D. 449):
“We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome” [Letters 25:2].
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Bishop of Patara [rebuking Justinian concerning the persecution of Pope Silverius] (c. A.D. 537):
“In this world there are many kings, not one, like that pope who is over the church of the whole world." [Liberatus in his Brevarium, c. 22].
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Columbanus (c. A.D. 600):
“[Rome] the principal See of the orthodox faith” [Columbanus, Epist. ad. Bonif. Pap. p, 353, Galland, tom. xii.].
__
Maximus the Confessor (c. A.D. 650):
“. . . [the Apostolic See of Rome] from God the Incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman Pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him from the accusation. . . .” [Opuscula 12, Patrologia Graeca 91.141-146].
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Mar Abdisho of Soba (c. A.D. 1318):
“To the great Rome [authority] was given because the two pillars are laid in the grave there, Peter, I say, the head of the Apostles, and Paul, the teacher of the nations. [Rome] is the first see and the head of the patriarchs” [Memra; Risha 1].
“…And as the patriarch has authority to do all he wishes in a fitting manner in such things as are beneath his authority, so the patriarch of Rome has authority over all patriarchs, like the blessed Peter over all the community, for he who is in Rome also keeps the office of Peter in all the Church. He who transgresses against these things the ecumenical synod places under anathema” [Memra 9; Risha 8].
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Emeraldlady
New member
A very astute observation. It’s really only in recent Christian history that everyone has access to the Scriptures. If one doesn’t have faith in the magisterium, they are kidding themselves if they don’t realise they’ve just transferred their faith to some other source of interpretation.
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ziapueblo
Guest
Bingo! Ravenna and Balamand documents.
Plus, there are zillions of people’s personal stories on “why I can’t be Roman Catholic” or “why I can’t be Orthodox.”
ZP
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vsedriver
Guest
please remember that we are the CATHOLIC church not the Latin (Roman) Catholic Church. The Latin rite is just one of many in the Catholic Church.
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Babaganoush
Guest
I don’t deny that there is or should be development. Every idea develops over time. Theology has developed over the last 2000 years in the face of controversy. The point though is that the Orthodox have a point, and it can’t be just dismissed. They have come to different conclusions than the west has, and those conclusions are based on a historical development that starts in the early Church.
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Babaganoush
Guest
The fact is that everyone must trust their own judgement, whether they conclude that they should trust the catholic magisterium or not. The Catholic Church claims that it has maintained the true faith, The Orthodox Church makes the same claim. Protestants make the claim that both the catholic and orthodox churches are wrong. You think that all Protestants and Orthodox should become catholic for the sake of their salvation. Consequently they are expected to go beyond what has been historically accessible. Unless we are to assume that all churches are true then it is pointless to argue that the objections take exceptional effort to prove or disprove.
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ReaderT
Guest
Greetings. What jurisdiction are you under?
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steve-b
Guest
It’s the only tradition that traces it’s origin back to Jesus alone, establishing His ONE Church on Peter and those in perfect union with Peter AND living by that.adamhovey1988:
Um, yes, your faith tradition stands alone on that claim,
That is the Catholic Church… West and East
Using Jesus own words HERE , And adding from a Bishop, who was one man away from an apostle, who said, “While The Catholic Church possesses the same faith throughout the whole world” Bp Irenaeus “Against Heresies” Bk 1, ch 10, v 3 written ~180 a.d. He was taught by Bp Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of St John the apostle.
speaking of other traditions
Are the Orthodox united to Peter? NOPE!
Are the Orthodox united to those united to Peter? NOPE!
then there are also plenty of traditions of heresy
The Eastern rites of the Catholic Church are rites of the Catholic Church because they are 100% Catholic. In full union with the pope and those in union with him.
The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (Canon 43) states it in these terms: “The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.”
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steve-b
Guest
An interesting passage. If one takes it out of context it almost looks like Jesus is saying He isn’t God.
example:
Jn 7:
Jesus went up into the temple and taught. 15 The Jews marveled at it, saying, “How is it that this man has learning,[d] when he has never studied?” 16 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; 17 if any man’s will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. 18 He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. 19 Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” 20 The people answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” 21 Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel at it. 22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man upon the sabbath. 23 If on the sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the sabbath I made a man’s whole body well? 24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
It’s Out of strict obedience to His Father, that Jesus describes Himself later in John, in what He does and says
Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
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Emeraldlady
New member
When trusting our own judgement on matters of faith and morals leads to loss of communion/schism, we are no longer the one family in Christ. I can’t think of any great human communion that has survived and thrived without an hierarchical structure under an authoritative head. And without submission to that authority, there is loss of that multi layered moral unity which is the only force that can overcome evil in the world. I know that there is no moral concensus on just about anything among non Catholic Christians. The each to his own approach is easy pickin’s for evil to be fed.
In an earlier post on the thread I asked of the Orthodox poster, how are contemporary faith and moral conundrums resolved for the Eastern Orthodox faithful? I haven’t had an answer but I suspect that without an authoritative representative of Christ on earth, that they also adopt the ‘each to his own’ system. That is one that I could not accept in good conscience because I know with complete certainty that the devil will exploit that deep wishy washy environment to spread evil ideologies and behaviours.
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steve-b
Guest
Re: clarification of terms, use and misuse, of
“sister Churches”
AND
“Mother Church”
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steve-b
Guest
Add to your list going back in time,
Bp Irenaeus “Against Heresies” Bk 1, ch 10, v 3 written ~180 a.d. He was taught by Bp Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Irenaeus writes "the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said."
AND
this is who and why, he says all are to follow the Catholic Church in Rome, on account of it’s preeminent authority which came down to his day by Peter and Paul in Rome, and 12 bishops he names down to his day as successors to Peter. in Rome
Bk 3 Ch3 paragraphs 1-3, “Against Heresies”
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AlNg
Guest
Here is part of the document you linked to:
" The expression has been used often by John Paul II in numerous addresses and documents; the principal ones, in chronological order, are the following.
In the Encyclical Slavorum Apostoli : «For us they [Cyril and Methodius] are the champions and also the patrons of the ecumenical endeavour of the sister Churches of East and West, for the rediscovery through prayer and dialogue of visible unity in perfect and total communion.»[4]
In a Letter from 1991 to the Bishops of Europe: «Hence, with these Churches [the Orthodox Churches] relations are to be fostered as between sister Churches, to use the expression of Pope Paul VI in his Brief to the Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras I.»[5]
In the Encyclical Ut unum sint, the theme is developed above all in number 56 which begins in this way: «Following the Second Vatican Council and in the light of earlier tradition, it has again become usual to refer to the particular or local Churches gathered around their Bishop as “sister Churches.” In addition, the lifting of the mutual excommunications, by eliminating a painful canonical and psychological obstacle, was a very significant step on the way toward full communion.» This section concludes by expressing the wish that the «traditional designation of “sister Churches” should ever accompany us along this path.» The topic is taken up again in number 60 of the Encyclical: «More recently, the joint international commission took a significant step forward with regard to the very sensitive question of the method to be followed in re-establishing full communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, an issue which has frequently embittered relations between Catholics and Orthodox. The commission has laid the doctrinal foundations for a positive solution to this problem on the basis of the doctrine of sister Churches.»[6]
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