Why I Can't be Protestant

[CopticChristian]

How do you reconcile Catholicism and Mormonism? They are by definition antithetical to one another?

This is not relevant to the question, however since you brought it up, Mormons spring from Protestant thought, not Catholic thought directly. My recollection was that Joe thought all Protestants were wrong and that is why he formed a new religion. In my opinion Protestants formed a new religion.

 

[CopticChristian]

Christians on both sides (Catholic and Protestant) forget that both sides share the core believes found in both the apostles creed and nicene creed.

For example:
The Nicene Creed states:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

All of these statements unify us as Christians, as brothers and sisters of Christ.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Protestant Church it’s awesome. I used to be Protestant and it has a very special place in my heart. It has its quirks and it certainly isn’t perfect but if a person for whatever reason doesn’t agree with the Catholic teaching it is a good place to go.

Be aware: because the Protestant Church is also Christian: most denominations especially the Evangelical ones are extremely: prolife, teach sex after marriage, the importance praying regularly, reading the bible, attending church regularly and more. The main difference is the belief in the Eucharist, the saints and a few other things that are best left for another discussion. BTW the Protestant Church has 5 or 6 less sacraments: for example most only recognize baptism and not the rest.

This was long and thoughtful however as I understand there are 4 basic differences.

Extrinsic vs Intrinsic justification
Authority of the Church
The Bible alone
Faith alone

From which all other beliefs flow. The notion of being legally declared to be Justified as opposed to being not only legally declared extrinsically but as a result being transformed is the difference from being just an acquitted criminal to being changed and transformed to a child of God. The authority is what leads us to 7 sacraments and the lack of authority to the consistently inconsistent view of the 2 remaing sacraments that differ by denomination. This leads me back to the original conclusion uncertain certainty.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can’t sing!

Neither can Benny Hinn. There is a definite joy of music like the gregorian chant or the Ave Maria and as I recall even our groans are turned into prayer.

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually I was baptized and confirmed Catholic. And very young attended some masses. But dad was a Mason and we stopped attending mass when I was about ten. And I had Catholic relatives. So I did have some contact with the church, not much, but enough to know some truths.

And I can understand why many turn off to Christianity when I also see so much confusion and hypocracy coming from so many Christians (both Protestant and Catholic).

I understand this and sometimes forget that the Church is the body of Christ Human/Divine. The Church is journeying as Christ did, suffering, and as long as there are humans in the Church there will be sin. Paul as you recall Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. If this is true our sufferings are part of the Church and our sins come with it. Hopefully in time the Church will be purified just as is expected in the Heavenly Kingdom.

If we look at the Moral teachings there is an incosistency with regards to Protestant thought when considered as a whole on abortion, contraception, slavery and homosexuality. Individuals may agree with the Church teachings however in time, the signposts of past experience is that Protestants have not had a steady course because of the uncertain certainty.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most of these people speak the words they have been taught. Most truly believe what they are saying to be true. I do not see it as “lies” in the sense that lies are told in order to deceive. These people are spreading what they believe to be truth. They think they are right and we are wrong. They think they are saving us from hell if we will listen to them.

You really have to wonder about James White and Matt Slick. They persist in misrepresenting what they are told to be misrepresentations. They do not change their view to even say it is their view, rather the view.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

This is not relevant to the question, however since you brought it up, Mormons spring from Protestant thought, not Catholic thought directly. My recollection was that Joe thought all Protestants were wrong and that is why he formed a new religion. In my opinion Protestants formed a new religion.

Well he revealed he was kidding.

At any rate, I’d contest that. I’d say Mormonism has been more influenced by Catholicism than anything else. They claim to have Apostolic Succession and be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ (rather, restored).

That’s more Catholic than anything.

But anyway, to the topic: I’m still a Protestant so I suppose it doesn’t work for me. However, I’ll never be an Evangelical again because I’ll never again be happy in one of those churches after experiencing a liturgy. I just miss participating in Communion.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well he revealed he was kidding.

At any rate, I’d contest that. I’d say Mormonism has been more influenced by Catholicism than anything else. They claim to have Apostolic Succession and be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ (rather, restored).

That’s more Catholic than anything.

But anyway, to the topic: I’m still a Protestant so I suppose it doesn’t work for me. However, I’ll never be an Evangelical again because I’ll never again be happy in one of those churches after experiencing a liturgy. I just miss participating in Communion.

It is my understanding that all Protestants are essentially restorationist trying to use the Bible as the blueprint. Protestants claim the Bible alone however use The Institutes of Religion, Westminster confession, Augsberg Confession all sorts of extrabiblical works. They translate the bible with uninspired footnotes, change verses to fit their theology like the NIV and the Mormons do as their ancestor Protestants do. They use a Bible, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants.

If for instance there had never been any Protestant would there have been a book of Mormon?

Catholics use the teachings of the Church based on Scripture and Tradition. Tradition does not contradict scripture.

 

[CopticChristian]

When I was a young Protestant I was involved in my church and attended every Sunday. Visited other churches, watched Christian tv, read books, donated to Christian tv and also donated to the 700 Clubs. Also went to conferences and a Billy Graham Crusade.

But things unravelled.
My degree is in history and I still study a lot of it. Much of what I was reading about the Catholic church in my churches were written by people who were not historians and far from factual.
I often heard people say something negative about Catholic teaching and about that time read something supporting it in scripture.
Scripture says that communion is the body of Christ and we take it every time we met. Yet my church took it occasionally and regarded it as symbolic.
One time I was with a mixed group of Protestants and they started talking about the Catholic church. They knew where it stood on many issues such as abortion. I asked where their churches stood on those subjects. Interesting that they all knew where the Catholic church stood but nobody knew their own.
Different chuches had different and opposing opinions. They would claim that at least they agree on the basics but that was not true. Infant or adult baptism? Can you lose your salvation? What is the meaning of the term “lord?” I saw too much confusion and God is not the author of confusion. When Jesus ascended into Heaven wouldn’t He want to leave His church in the hands of a competent infallible authority?
Over the years churches changed their teachings on such things as contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, baptism, salvation, gay marriage, etc. Was God changing His opinions?
I read Jimmy Swaggart’s “Letter to My Catholic Friends.” I had watched his tv show a number of times before. Following along in my bible I noticed he would skip a verse or stop a verse too soon changing the meaning of scripture. So I bought a Catholic Catechism and was not surprised at the distortions.
One time I was listening to a church sermon and the preacher was talking about Joanna. I thought “Thank God. One more sermon from our preacher or a tv minister about Mary Magdalene and I will run screaming from the room.” Then it hit me: speaking of people named Mary. There is a Mary in the bible who was at many important events and had a pivotal role but with all the sermons I heard about obscure people I never heard one about her except a brief reference to an unnamed virgin at Christmas. Oh sometimes there would be an insulting remark about the Mother of Jesus. Jesus obeyed the 10 Commandments and He honored His mother. How does Jesus like the way we treat His mother?
Then one Sunday morning there was the announcement that one of our pastors had his second divorce finalized on Friday and we were all invited to his third marriage that evening.
Later that day I learned that no Protestant denomination opposed abortion telling me there is no such thing as a bible believing church.
I already knew for some time that God was calling me to the Roman Catholic church.
I often heard that the Catholic church is the “Whore of Babylon” but could never see how they came to that claim. But I saw a strong similarity between the Tower of Babel and the Protestant Reformation.
Scripture tells us that all generations shall call Maqry “Blessed” so why do bible believing Christians throw a fit when one does?

Fallible teachings subject to change with certain uncertainty.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

It is my understanding that all Protestants are essentially restorationist trying to use the Bible as the blueprint. Protestants claim the Bible alone however use The Institutes of Religion, Westminster confession, Augsberg Confession all sorts of extrabiblical works. They translate the bible with uninspired footnotes, change verses to fit their theology like the NIV and the Mormons do as their ancestor Protestants do. They use a Bible, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants.

If for instance there had never been any Protestant would there have been a book of Mormon?

Catholics use the teachings of the Church based on Scripture and Tradition. Tradition does not contradict scripture.

I don’t think you’re being fair.

Protestants don’t look at those works as scripture. Mormons see those other works as on par with the Bible, and as divinely revealed as the Bible, because they believe in modern day prophets.

There were already other religious movements leaving the Catholic Church before Martin Luther (Hussites, Waldesians). What makes you think that Mormonism wouldn’t have arisen? Personally, I’m surprised it took so long for a movement like Mormonism to come up. We already had Montanism that claimed to have new prophets. Remember, Joseph Smith rejected Catholicism, too.

The Catholic Church recognizes Protestantism as “imperfectly united” and Protestants as “separated” brothers. But it does not even recognize the LDS as a Christian movement.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am a cradle Catholic and as Director of Catechetical Ministry, I hear the very same words by many recent converts or those willing to be initiated into the RCC. Protestanism sounds just to darn confusing and I can understand why many simply leave Christianity.

Fallible teaching with uncertain certainty creates confusion

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t think you’re being fair.

Protestants don’t look at those works as scripture. Mormons see those other works as on par with the Bible, and as divinely revealed as the Bible, because they believe in modern day prophets.

There were already other religious movements leaving the Catholic Church before Martin Luther (Hussites, Waldesians). What makes you think that Mormonism wouldn’t have arisen? Personally, I’m surprised it took so long for a movement like Mormonism to come up. We already had Montanism that claimed to have new prophets. Remember, Joseph Smith rejected Catholicism, too.

The Catholic Church recognizes Protestantism as “imperfectly united” and Protestants as “separated” brothers. But it does not even recognize the LDS as a Christian movement.

So you want me to believe that Protestants open a bible and come to the conclusion offered in the Westminster confession. I believe by experience that Bible Study, Church, music and all of the other modalities used in the Protestant experience teaches the new religion of Protestant thought. While they may not call these extrabiblical sources scripture they are basically Protestant Patristics to teach the theology.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

So you want me to believe that Protestants open a bible and come to the conclusion offered in the Westminster confession. I believe by experience that Bible Study, Church, music and all of the other modalities used in the Protestant experience teaches the new religion of Protestant thought. While they may not call these extrabiblical sources scripture they are basically Protestant Patristics to teach the theology.

Call it what you want, but it’s not based on extra scripture. If your argument is that Catholicism has the correct interpretation, that’s a valid point. But having a different view on Patristics or publishing a work that explains the theology of a certain Christian group is quite different from Mormonism, which claims that its work are all scripture, equal to the Bible (if not superior, as the Bible is only the word of God “so long as it is translated correctly”).

Would you rather sit through a Mormon service as a opposed to a Lutheran one, or an Evangelical one?

Personally if one day (God willing) I have a child, and he or she comes up to me and says they want to convert to Catholicism, I would accept it. I might have the dismay or a parent who wishes his child would have the same faith, but I wouldn’t be scandalized. However if he or she decided to convert to Mormonism, I think I’d probably break down right there. You simply cannot compare the two.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Call it what you want, but it’s not based on extra scripture. If your argument is that Catholicism has the correct interpretation, that’s a valid point. But having a different view on Patristics or publishing a work that explains the theology of a certain Christian group is quite different from Mormonism, which claims that its work are all scripture, equal to the Bible (if not superior, as the Bible is only the word of God “so long as it is translated correctly”).

Would you rather sit through a Mormon service as a opposed to a Lutheran one, or an Evangelical one?

Personally if one day (God willing) I have a child, and he or she comes up to me and says they want to convert to Catholicism, I would accept it. I might have the dismay or a parent who wishes his child would have the same faith, but I wouldn’t be scandalized. However if he or she decided to convert to Mormonism, I think I’d probably break down right there. You simply cannot compare the two.

So Calvinism/Arminianism, the rapture, once saved always saved and every conflicting protestant viewpoint come directly from scripture? If not, where do they come from?

I would definitely agree though that it is unfair to compare them to Mormons. What really grinds my gears is when non-Catholics compare Catholics to Mormons because of their employment of Tradition and Magisterium in addition to the scriptures.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

So Calvinism/Arminianism, the rapture, once saved always saved and every conflicting protestant viewpoint come directly from scripture? If not, where do they come from?

I would definitely agree though that it is unfair to compare them to Mormons. What really grinds my gears is when non-Catholics compare Catholics to Mormons because of their employment of Tradition and Magisterium in addition to the scriptures.

Well I’m not saying those viewpoints are correct, I’m just saying that their proponents get them from scripture, and in terms of Calvinism, loosely from St. Augustine. But they’re not revelations from God. Calvin, for as much as I vehemently disagree with his views (and honestly, I dislike them very much), would never claim to have gotten a divine revelation from God, and that he was a prophet.

I also agree that it’s unfair to compare Catholics to Mormons like that. It’s silly, anyway. It just means that Mormonism sees validity in Catholicism and therefore copies what it likes. But then again Baptists in the past have also tried to establish their historicity by claiming to be the long-lost Church of Jesus Christ that has valid Apostolic Succession but has long been suppressed. So it’s certainly attractive.

At any rate, I’d be very happy if a person left Mormonism for any Christian group, as long as it was a legitimate Christian group.

 

[exnihilo]

So Calvinism/Arminianism, the rapture, once saved always saved and every conflicting protestant viewpoint come directly from scripture? If not, where do they come from?

Yes, the come from Scripture. The differences come from finding different meaning in the same words, not fully considering context or other verses, and quite often from holding up one aspect of the Faith as being the most essential thing. You aren’t going to convince a Protestant that his beliefs dont come from Scripture because they do. It is how Scripture is used and interpreted that is the issue.

Think about how many different interpretations their are of the meaning of the amendments of the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution. There are lots of different theories that claim to fully explain those very few words.

 

[Rascalking]

This is interesting, thoughtful and not relevant to “why I can’t be Protestant”. Thank you for taking the time to read and post.

Well thank you. I am interesting and thoughtful-also a snazzy dresser and overall cool person too.

 

[Alix1912]

Dear OP

You seem to have a HUGE chip on your shoudler against protestants and Mormons. You have now started at least 3 threads on how you can’t be protestant, many with some very confussing and odd arguements.

You are also falling into the annoying habit of assuming that any non catholic religon is protestant, and that they are basically all the same. This is very far from the truth. As a Lutheran MS I am offended that you would imply that we think the Augsburg confession is on par with the Bible as sacred Scripture. It’s not, it is a statement of beliefs for our denomination, just as the Catholic Catischism is for you.

The Mormons hold all of their books as scripture, this is radically different from the concept of a catichism or a confession. Not to mention Mormons aren’t considered Christian as they do not believe in the Trinity. They are not a cult, but they are an enitrely different religon. To lump them in with any Christian denomination is wrong. So is assuming that because the Baptists believe one thing, all other protestants do as well.

You seem to just want to start trash and make fun of protestants threads, which just comes off as spiteful and rude. It’s also very offputting. It’s funny that most protestants I know, myself included have very little issues with the doctrine or practices of the Catholic Church in general. Often our biggest hurdle to ever wanting to explore being Catholic is the arogant and ****** attitude that so many of you exhibit.

You demand we respect your believes, but you cannot or willnot extend the same courtesy to us. You scream and kick and get angry when protestants misquote or misinterpret Catholic customs and teachings, but you do the exact same thing to us, and call us liars to boot. To paraphase your question…I cannot be catholic because of this exact attitude.

I have questions for you…Why do you hate Non Catholics so much? What do you hope to gain by posting threads bashing protestants?

 

[wondrousgnat]

Horrors I just discovered that I misspelled “Mary” and I can’t edit it.
I do lots of typos and don’t let it bother. But then there are those I definitely do not want to do.

 

[xzereus]

Dear OP

You seem to have a HUGE chip on your shoudler against protestants and Mormons. You have now started at least 3 threads on how you can’t be protestant, many with some very confussing and odd arguements.

You are also falling into the annoying habit of assuming that any non catholic religon is protestant, and that they are basically all the same. This is very far from the truth. As a Lutheran MS I am offended that you would imply that we think the Augsburg confession is on par with the Bible as sacred Scripture. It’s not, it is a statement of beliefs for our denomination, just as the Catholic Catischism is for you.

The Mormons hold all of their books as scripture, this is radically different from the concept of a catichism or a confession. Not to mention Mormons aren’t considered Christian as they do not believe in the Trinity. They are not a cult, but they are an enitrely different religon. To lump them in with any Christian denomination is wrong. So is assuming that because the Baptists believe one thing, all other protestants do as well.

You seem to just want to start trash and make fun of protestants threads, which just comes off as spiteful and rude. It’s also very offputting. It’s funny that most protestants I know, myself included have very little issues with the doctrine or practices of the Catholic Church in general. Often our biggest hurdle to ever wanting to explore being Catholic is the arogant and ****** attitude that so many of you exhibit.

You demand we respect your believes, but you cannot or willnot extend the same courtesy to us. You scream and kick and get angry when protestants misquote or misinterpret Catholic customs and teachings, but you do the exact same thing to us, and call us liars to boot. To paraphase your question…I cannot be catholic because of this exact attitude.

I have questions for you…Why do you hate Non Catholics so much? What do you hope to gain by posting threads bashing protestants?

I couldn’t agree with this more. Quite honestly, the reason that it took me so long to become Catholic is exactly because of threads like these and the unkindness I was shown by Catholics. All it took was one courteous Catholic speaking with me; after that, I was opened to a whole world of deep faith from the Catholic church which I could not get enough of. Since then, I seem to have met countless Catholics who are some of the kindest people I’ve met.

To be fair, Alix1912, you cannot group all Catholics as one. The percentages of “rude, intolerant and generally not courteous” people are probably the same in both Catholicism and Lutheranism, along with all of the other denominations. Simply because “most protestants I know” do not bash Catholics does not mean that Catholics hold the majority of the bashers - it only means that you have a good choice of friends, for which I applaud you. I do not have a single Catholic friend now who constantly bashes Protestantism, but nearly every single Protestant I am in contact with now does. This, again, only shows that I have a good choice of Catholic friends - and happen to know a lot of ex-Catholic Protestants.

In summary, threads like this are a disgrace to Catholicism, but that doesn’t mean that Catholics are the only ones who do things like this. Being misinformed in regards to other denominations is a fault of both Catholics and Protestants. If you’ve got your facts straight and want to have a civilized discussion, that’s fine. If you’d like to bash other people and make yourself feel good about your choices, I think they have room over at the Hypocritical and False Followers of Christ forums.

 

[wondrousgnat]

Now I do believe that Jesus founded His church on Peter and that God called me into the Catholic church. And Protestants can present good reasons for being members of the churches they are in. I also beleive that Protestants are good people and Christians too. I have a feeling that many of us will be surprised when we get to Heaven and see all those people from the wrong religion there.