Why I can't leave the family to be Protestant

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Extrinsic Justification. This is justification by grace alone the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the rejection of the Catholic view of faith formed by charity as “saving faith.” Extrinsic justification is the idea that justification occurs outside of man, rather than within him. The Reformers, like the Catholic Church, insisted that justification is by grace and therefore originates outside of man, with God. But they also insisted that when God justifies man, man is not changed but merely declared just or righteous. God treats man as if he were just or righteous, imputing to man the righteousness of Christ, rather than imparting it to him. Calvin tried to circumvent the biblical problems of the extrinsic justification theory by positing a systematic distinction between justification, which puts us in right relation to God but which, on the Protestant view, doesn’t involve a change in man; and sanctification, which transforms us. Yet this systematic distinction isn’t biblical.

Intrinsic Justification. Catholicism holds that justification is by grace alone. In that sense, it originates outside of man, with God’s grace. But, according to Catholic teaching, God justifies man by effecting a change within him, by making him just or righteous, not merely by saying he is just or righteous or treating him as if he were. Justification imparts the righteousness of Christ to man, transforming him by grace into a child of God. There is neither a logical nor a biblical reason why God cannot effect a change in man without undercutting justification by grace alone. Whatever righteousness comes to be in man as a result of justification is a gift, as much any other gift God bestows on man. Nor does the Bible’s treatment of “imputed” righteousness imply that justification is not imparted. On these points, the Reformers were simply wrong:

There is no doubt that grace, for St. Paul, however freely given, involves what he calls ‘the new creation’, the appearance in us of a ‘new man’, created in justice and holiness. So far from suppressing the efforts of man, or making them a matter of indifference, or at least irrelevant to salvation, he himself tells us to ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’, at the very moment when he affirms that ‘. . . knowing that it is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish.’ These two expressions say better than any other that all is grace in our salvation, but at the same time grace is not opposed to human acts and endeavor in order to attain salvation, but arouses them and exacts their performance."

In the Bible, justification and sanctification–as many modern Protestant exegetes admit–are two different terms for the same process. Both occur by grace through faith and both involve a faith “informed by charity” or completed by love. Faith in the Pauline sense, “supposes the total abandonment of man to the gift of God”–which amounts to love of God. He argues that it is absurd to think that the man justified by faith, who calls God “Abba, Father,” doesn’t love God or doesn’t have to love him in order to be justified.

So with this in mind if someone offered you the opportunity to be declared righteous or to become righteous which is most appealing. Put it another way. If you are a Catholic and accept being declared righteous, are righteous are a child of God really and truly to become Protestant means you have to give this notion up and become a creature declared innocent and not be truly righteous just be declared righteous. Both are on account of the righteousness of Christ.

I think I don’t want to leave the family, stop being a child of God and abandon the belief that Christ declares me to be righteous and in doing so I am righteous. Would you give this up to become Protestant?
 
shoot i agve up being protesant to be a Child of God 👍 and follow His way
 
shoot i agve up being protesant to be a Child of God 👍 and follow His way
Abraham left home, Abraham believed, Abraham was willing to offer his son. Aquinas says our spiritual life is like Adam-Abraham (childhood), Abraham-Moses (adolescence) and Moses-Christ(adulthood) and adds in resurrection glory and perfection all made possible by asking Jesus to be your personal Lord and savior daily after Baptism, by availing yourself of the grace, by coming to Christ and his family, The Body of Christ is the Church because there is one mediator Christ.
 
Extrinsic Justification. This is justification by grace alone the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the rejection of the Catholic view of faith formed by charity as “saving faith.” Extrinsic justification is the idea that justification occurs outside of man, rather than within him. The Reformers, like the Catholic Church, insisted that justification is by grace and therefore originates outside of man, with God. But they also insisted that when God justifies man, man is not changed but merely declared just or righteous. God treats man as if he were just or righteous, imputing to man the righteousness of Christ, rather than imparting it to him. Calvin tried to circumvent the biblical problems of the extrinsic justification theory by positing a systematic distinction between justification, which puts us in right relation to God but which, on the Protestant view, doesn’t involve a change in man; and sanctification, which transforms us. Yet this systematic distinction isn’t biblical.

Intrinsic Justification. Catholicism holds that justification is by grace alone. In that sense, it originates outside of man, with God’s grace. But, according to Catholic teaching, God justifies man by effecting a change within him, by making him just or righteous, not merely by saying he is just or righteous or treating him as if he were. Justification imparts the righteousness of Christ to man, transforming him by grace into a child of God. There is neither a logical nor a biblical reason why God cannot effect a change in man without undercutting justification by grace alone. Whatever righteousness comes to be in man as a result of justification is a gift, as much any other gift God bestows on man. Nor does the Bible’s treatment of “imputed” righteousness imply that justification is not imparted. On these points, the Reformers were simply wrong:

There is no doubt that grace, for St. Paul, however freely given, involves what he calls ‘the new creation’, the appearance in us of a ‘new man’, created in justice and holiness. So far from suppressing the efforts of man, or making them a matter of indifference, or at least irrelevant to salvation, he himself tells us to ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’, at the very moment when he affirms that ‘. . . knowing that it is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish.’ These two expressions say better than any other that all is grace in our salvation, but at the same time grace is not opposed to human acts and endeavor in order to attain salvation, but arouses them and exacts their performance."

In the Bible, justification and sanctification–as many modern Protestant exegetes admit–are two different terms for the same process. Both occur by grace through faith and both involve a faith “informed by charity” or completed by love. Faith in the Pauline sense, “supposes the total abandonment of man to the gift of God”–which amounts to love of God. He argues that it is absurd to think that the man justified by faith, who calls God “Abba, Father,” doesn’t love God or doesn’t have to love him in order to be justified.

So with this in mind if someone offered you the opportunity to be declared righteous or to become righteous which is most appealing. Put it another way. If you are a Catholic and accept being declared righteous, are righteous are a child of God really and truly to become Protestant means you have to give this notion up and become a creature declared innocent and not be truly righteous just be declared righteous. Both are on account of the righteousness of Christ.

I think I don’t want to leave the family, stop being a child of God and abandon the belief that Christ declares me to be righteous and in doing so I am righteous. Would you give this up to become Protestant?
Just by believe in Christ doesn’t make one righteous.The Devil believes in Christ.I think it would be better said that I have faith in Christ.in other words in believe in what Christ said and I believe He will do it.To become protestant is really just abandoning Catholism.You are only declared innocent through baptism.And you are declared righteous.If you quit Catholism you lose a source of grace(the Eucharist,and all the other sacraments)Why do protestant’s declare your innocent?Or righteous?One only becomes righteous by believing in Jesus and repenting of one’s sins.Then Jesus is faithful to forgive one’s sins through His faithfulness to His word.
 
Just by believe in Christ doesn’t make one righteous.The Devil believes in Christ.I think it would be better said that I have faith in Christ.in other words in believe in what Christ said and I believe He will do it.To become protestant is really just abandoning Catholism.You are only declared innocent through baptism.And you are declared righteous.If you quit Catholism you lose a source of grace(the Eucharist,and all the other sacraments)Why do protestant’s declare your innocent?Or righteous?One only becomes righteous by believing in Jesus and repenting of one’s sins.Then Jesus is faithful to forgive one’s sins through His faithfulness to His word.
I agree with you, many Catholics unkowingly give up what they do not know, being told that they are gaining something they do not have. I had a Protestant minister try to evangelize me after several social meetings and while I said no thank you, he said…I am offering you Jesus…to whit I said, you cannot offer what you do not have and left.
 
I agree with you, many Catholics unkowingly give up what they do not know, being told that they are gaining something they do not have. I had a Protestant minister try to evangelize me after several social meetings and while I said no thank you, he said…I am offering you Jesus…to whit I said, you cannot offer what you do not have and left.
Well you got sand if nothing else.
 
I agree with you, many Catholics unkowingly give up what they do not know, being told that they are gaining something they do not have. I had a Protestant minister try to evangelize me after several social meetings and while I said no thank you, he said…I am offering you Jesus…to whit I said, you cannot offer what you do not have and left.
I’ll bet you surprized him with that.
 
CopticChristian,

What would you say about a former Roman Catholic, who was essentially non-practicing yet “formally” Catholic, whose faith was revived because of an experience in an Evangelical or Protestant worship service? Assuming that person remains in that Evangelical setting, but continues to have faith in God, would you consider that “abandoning the family” or “imperfectly reuniting with the family”? 😃
 
CopticChristian,

What would you say about a former Roman Catholic, who was essentially non-practicing yet “formally” Catholic, whose faith was revived because of an experience in an Evangelical or Protestant worship service? Assuming that person remains in that Evangelical setting, but continues to have faith in God, would you consider that “abandoning the family” or “imperfectly reuniting with the family”? 😃
This is an interesting question. Leaving the family is the understanding that the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the Family of God. Justification in this Church is divine sonship actually transformed by grace to be declared and in fact be a child of God. To be a child of God actually and really and to be offered by a Protestant conversion equates to relinquishing that belief for Justification as a legal declaration as an acquited criminal.

Your example demonstrates the commencement of a journey whose destination is not yet realized. The family is waiting with open arms. When was the celebration for the Prodigal son, on the way or on arrival?
 
This is an interesting question. Leaving the family is the understanding that the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the Family of God. Justification in this Church is divine sonship actually transformed by grace to be declared and in fact be a child of God. To be a child of God actually and really and to be offered by a Protestant conversion equates to relinquishing that belief for Justification as a legal declaration as an acquited criminal.

Your example demonstrates the commencement of a journey whose destination is not yet realized. The family is waiting with open arms. When was the celebration for the Prodigal son, on the way or on arrival?
Yes but the journey might end with his death, before the “destination,” which, presumably, to you, would be returning to the Catholic Church. Would that person be better off instead as a lapsed, but formal Catholic?
 
Yes but the journey might end with his death, before the “destination,” which, presumably, to you, would be returning to the Catholic Church. Would that person be better off instead as a lapsed, but formal Catholic?
I know of no story in the bible or parable that satisfies that question. In consideration that hypotheticals make for poor argument and decision making I refer you to the site called “ask an Apologist”
 
CopticChristian,

What would you say about a former Roman Catholic, who was essentially non-practicing yet “formally” Catholic, whose faith was revived because of an experience in an Evangelical or Protestant worship service? Assuming that person remains in that Evangelical setting, but continues to have faith in God, would you consider that “abandoning the family” or “imperfectly reuniting with the family”? 😃
Couldn’t express more.
Even though I’m “formally” a catholic, but I believed in “FAITH IN JESUS ALONE”. I believe that Jesus died for our sin, once and for all. If the blood of the Son of God is not enough for our salvation, then what else? I don’t believed in good works to earn your salvation. Instead, good works is the result when you have faith in Him.
 
Extrinsic Justification. This is justification by grace alone the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the rejection of the Catholic view of faith formed by charity as “saving faith.” Extrinsic justification is the idea that justification occurs outside of man, rather than within him. The Reformers, like the Catholic Church, insisted that justification is by grace and therefore originates outside of man, with God. But they also insisted that when God justifies man, man is not changed but merely declared just or righteous. God treats man as if he were just or righteous, imputing to man the righteousness of Christ, rather than imparting it to him. Calvin tried to circumvent the biblical problems of the extrinsic justification theory by positing a systematic distinction between justification, which puts us in right relation to God but which, on the Protestant view, doesn’t involve a change in man; and sanctification, which transforms us. Yet this systematic distinction isn’t biblical.

Intrinsic Justification. Catholicism holds that justification is by grace alone. In that sense, it originates outside of man, with God’s grace. But, according to Catholic teaching, God justifies man by effecting a change within him, by making him just or righteous, not merely by saying he is just or righteous or treating him as if he were. Justification imparts the righteousness of Christ to man, transforming him by grace into a child of God. There is neither a logical nor a biblical reason why God cannot effect a change in man without undercutting justification by grace alone. Whatever righteousness comes to be in man as a result of justification is a gift, as much any other gift God bestows on man. Nor does the Bible’s treatment of “imputed” righteousness imply that justification is not imparted. On these points, the Reformers were simply wrong:

There is no doubt that grace, for St. Paul, however freely given, involves what he calls ‘the new creation’, the appearance in us of a ‘new man’, created in justice and holiness. So far from suppressing the efforts of man, or making them a matter of indifference, or at least irrelevant to salvation, he himself tells us to ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’, at the very moment when he affirms that ‘. . . knowing that it is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish.’ These two expressions say better than any other that all is grace in our salvation, but at the same time grace is not opposed to human acts and endeavor in order to attain salvation, but arouses them and exacts their performance."

In the Bible, justification and sanctification–as many modern Protestant exegetes admit–are two different terms for the same process. Both occur by grace through faith and both involve a faith “informed by charity” or completed by love. Faith in the Pauline sense, “supposes the total abandonment of man to the gift of God”–which amounts to love of God. He argues that it is absurd to think that the man justified by faith, who calls God “Abba, Father,” doesn’t love God or doesn’t have to love him in order to be justified.

So with this in mind if someone offered you the opportunity to be declared righteous or to become righteous which is most appealing. Put it another way. If you are a Catholic and accept being declared righteous, are righteous are a child of God really and truly to become Protestant means you have to give this notion up and become a creature declared innocent and not be truly righteous just be declared righteous. Both are on account of the righteousness of Christ.

I think I don’t want to leave the family, stop being a child of God and abandon the belief that Christ declares me to be righteous and in doing so I am righteous. Would you give this up to become Protestant?
Intrinsic justification is so much more biblical, and rooted so much more in tradition. I used to believe in extrinsic justification, but there are so many loose ends and it’s very hard to reconcile some Bible verses with it. You have to make an extremely sharp distinction between justification adn sanctification, and even then verses don’t match up.

But I do believe most Protestants believe in intrinsic justification even if they don’t realize it.
 
Yes but the journey might end with his death, before the “destination,” which, presumably, to you, would be returning to the Catholic Church. Would that person be better off instead as a lapsed, but formal Catholic?
Why wouldn’t you want to become Catholic?
 
Intrinsic justification is so much more biblical, and rooted so much more in tradition. I used to believe in extrinsic justification, but there are so many loose ends and it’s very hard to reconcile some Bible verses with it. You have to make an extremely sharp distinction between justification adn sanctification, and even then verses don’t match up.

But I do believe most Protestants believe in intrinsic justification even if they don’t realize it.
Sanctification as I understand it is a non doctrine. Justification is a process. If as you say Protestants believe in intrinsic justification, then the only 3 hurdles for unification are:
  1. Sola Fide
  2. Sola Scriptura
  3. Church Authority
If as you say Justification, the article on which the church stands or falls according to Calvin, then the wall of Protestant thought is crumbling. This is why I can’t be Protestant.
 
Couldn’t express more.
Even though I’m “formally” a catholic, but I believed in “FAITH IN JESUS ALONE”. I believe that Jesus died for our sin, once and for all. If the blood of the Son of God is not enough for our salvation, then what else? I don’t believed in good works to earn your salvation. Instead, good works is the result when you have faith in Him.
You may have not heard Paul correctly. Romans 2:14, the gentiles do the law Romans 4:1-6 about works and if you look at 4:9-12 the work is circumcision. You misunderstand works of law or ceremonial law to be works. Paul is saying being circumcised, a work of the law won’t justify the Judaizing Jew. He is saying that you must keep the Moral Law and you can only keep the Moral law by the righteousness of Christ, not on your own. Your suggestion that works are not important is in conflict with the Epistle of James. It indicates you have not seen that, have probably wrongly been taught that these works are works righteousness and instead are really works of the ceremonial jewish law. Not works as you say.

If as you say Faith is all you need, and if Salvation is the work of God from start to finish as I believe, then where and how did you get this Faith or is it a bargain that God is obligated to give you something becuause you did something?
 
Sanctification as I understand it is a non doctrine. Justification is a process. If as you say Protestants believe in intrinsic justification, then the only 3 hurdles for unification are:
  1. Sola Fide
  2. Sola Scriptura
  3. Church Authority
If as you say Justification, the article on which the church stands or falls according to Calvin, then the wall of Protestant thought is crumbling. This is why I can’t be Protestant.
Sanctification and Justification I always thought are the same thing just different words to express it. Protestantism made them 2 seperate things. Also, it was Luther who said that, not Calvin.
 
Why wouldn’t you want to become Catholic?
What I was stating was in response to CopticChristian saying that the Catholic Church is a family, and that leaving the Church is leaving a family. I posed the question: is a person who is formally a Catholic (been confirmed), and fell away, and then found faith in an Evangelical worship service - is that person a part of the family, albeit “imperfectly”? I’m not implying the person would have eventually returned to the Roman Catholic Church. He might never desire to do so. But technically wouldn’t it be better to have some faith, with Evangelicalism, then simply be a formal Catholic with no real attachment to Christ?

Or are you asking me why I personally “wouldn’t want to be Catholic”?
 
What I was stating was in response to CopticChristian saying that the Catholic Church is a family, and that leaving the Church is leaving a family. I posed the question: is a person who is formally a Catholic (been confirmed), and fell away, and then found faith in an Evangelical worship service - is that person a part of the family, albeit “imperfectly”? I’m not implying the person would have eventually returned to the Roman Catholic Church. He might never desire to do so. But technically wouldn’t it be better to have some faith, with Evangelicalism, then simply be a formal Catholic with no real attachment to Christ?

Or are you asking me why I personally “wouldn’t want to be Catholic”?
The latter. Sorry for the confusion 😊.
 
The latter. Sorry for the confusion 😊.
No problem.

I never stated I wouldn’t want to be Catholic. If the Lord wills that I become a Catholic, I shall convert. If he wills me to be an Orthodox, I’ll do that. And if he wants me to be a Lutheran, or return to Evangelicalism, I’ll do that, too. I don’t have any special prejudice against Catholicism. In fact, quite the opposite is true. I’m fond of it.

I am in the process of investigating Catholicism as well as Orthodoxy and Lutheranism, because those are the three that I think are the closest to the original Christian faith. And I’m taking it slowly, very meticulously, because I’m not going to take a decision lightly. I want to be convinced of the truth. Plus for the hell I’ll be paying with family I’d better be 1000% sure of what I’m doing.
 
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