Why I can't leave the family to be Protestant

[Swiss_Guy]

No problem.

I never stated I wouldn’t want to be Catholic. If the Lord wills that I become a Catholic, I shall convert. If he wills me to be an Orthodox, I’ll do that. And if he wants me to be a Lutheran, or return to Evangelicalism, I’ll do that, too. I don’t have any special prejudice against Catholicism. In fact, quite the opposite is true. I’m fond of it.

I am in the process of investigating Catholicism as well as Orthodoxy and Lutheranism, because those are the three that I think are the closest to the original Christian faith. And I’m taking it slowly, very meticulously, because I’m not going to take a decision lightly. I want to be convinced of the truth. Plus for the hell I’ll be paying with family I’d better be 1000% sure of what I’m doing.

I see. Well, I think you are 100% spot on for the 3 closest to original Christianity (I’ll give you a hint - Catholicism is the correct choice ). I’m not too knowledgable about Orthodoxy, but when I was searching it had minimal appeal to me compared to the CC, and it’s denial of original sin and some anti-western leanings didn’t help (I’m very pro-western so to speak - proud of my Germanic heritage)Lutheranism is good on the outside, but when you dig deeper (I mean deep) there are some holes (confessional Lutheranism. Liberal Lutheranism has holes on the top ).

good luck and God bless you on your faith journey .

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I see. Well, I think you are 100% spot on for the 3 closest to original Christianity (I’ll give you a hint - Catholicism is the correct choice ). I’m not too knowledgable about Orthodoxy, but when I was searching it had minimal appeal to me compared to the CC, and it’s denial of original sin and some anti-western leanings didn’t help (I’m very pro-western so to speak - proud of my Germanic heritage)Lutheranism is good on the outside, but when you dig deeper (I mean deep) there are some holes (confessional Lutheranism. Liberal Lutheranism has holes on the top ).

good luck and God bless you on your faith journey .

Yes I’ve had similar experiences. Catholicism feels good because it’s been the religion of my family for a good 2,000 years. After all, I’m Italian, Catholicism has always been a major part of our lives . We’re still more or less the only non-Catholic ones in the whole family. I adore the Latin Tridentine Mass and the Church’s insistence on reason and confirmation. Plus: Gregorian chants bring me to tears without fail each and every single time. Orthodoxy is beautiful, its liturgy awesome, and I love their conservative approach to the faith. They are very cautious about changing the faith. But I also have observed a resentment towards the West. And you know what? As a proud Westerner, that bothers me. Not even on a purely theological basis (although I do accept the filioque and original sin, so far), but just in terms of attitude.

Confessional Lutheranism reminds me a lot of Catholicism, and I find their theology as very logical and reasonable. Plus it kind of takes away the fear or over-emphasis on Mary. I can’t go for the hippy new stuff in the liberal denominations, though. That being said, I want the truth above all else, without any personal caveat of mine of what I want. It’s not about what I want, ultimately.

Glad to know I’m not the only one proud of his European heritage. I was beginning to think I was a freak in the crowd. God bless you too, brother , and thanks for the support.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sanctification and Justification I always thought are the same thing just different words to express it. Protestantism made them 2 seperate things. Also, it was Luther who said that, not Calvin.

Some Protestant said it, Scott Hahn said Calvin/Luther both said it, and yes I agree as Scott Hahn says and other say there is no such thing as sanctification.

 

[CopticChristian]

No problem.

I never stated I wouldn’t want to be Catholic. If the Lord wills that I become a Catholic, I shall convert. If he wills me to be an Orthodox, I’ll do that. And if he wants me to be a Lutheran, or return to Evangelicalism, I’ll do that, too. I don’t have any special prejudice against Catholicism. In fact, quite the opposite is true. I’m fond of it.

I am in the process of investigating Catholicism as well as Orthodoxy and Lutheranism, because those are the three that I think are the closest to the original Christian faith. And I’m taking it slowly, very meticulously, because I’m not going to take a decision lightly. I want to be convinced of the truth. Plus for the hell I’ll be paying with family I’d better be 1000% sure of what I’m doing.

Bravo for that heartfelt answer. It is difficult to change a belief you need only pray for consent to do so.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes I’ve had similar experiences. Catholicism feels good because it’s been the religion of my family for a good 2,000 years. After all, I’m Italian, Catholicism has always been a major part of our lives . We’re still more or less the only non-Catholic ones in the whole family. I adore the Latin Tridentine Mass and the Church’s insistence on reason and confirmation. Plus: Gregorian chants bring me to tears without fail each and every single time. Orthodoxy is beautiful, its liturgy awesome, and I love their conservative approach to the faith. They are very cautious about changing the faith. But I also have observed a resentment towards the West. And you know what? As a proud Westerner, that bothers me. Not even on a purely theological basis (although I do accept the filioque and original sin, so far), but just in terms of attitude.

Confessional Lutheranism reminds me a lot of Catholicism, and I find their theology as very logical and reasonable. Plus it kind of takes away the fear or over-emphasis on Mary. I can’t go for the hippy new stuff in the liberal denominations, though. That being said, I want the truth above all else, without any personal caveat of mine of what I want. It’s not about what I want, ultimately.

Glad to know I’m not the only one proud of his European heritage. I was beginning to think I was a freak in the crowd. God bless you too, brother , and thanks for the support.

If you find yourself to Lutheranism and you study Luther and how he and Calvin split. It is because he did not give up much of what he learned. The question is do you want to be accepted as an acquited criminal, just in the eyes of God, but not truly just, extrinsic justification or declared to be a child of God, infused with Christs righteousness and made righteous, intrinsic justification.

Ask how one gets the saving Faith in Protestant thought?

 

[CompSciGuy]

But I do believe most Protestants believe in intrinsic justification even if they don’t realize it.

I’m finding this more and more. They will say that good works must be present as evidence for saving faith. But they are very meticulous to emphasize that our works have no place in salvation… even though they admittedly have to be present in order for saving faith to be realized.

Many Protestants will ask, “if it is necessary to do good works to attain salvation, how many good works must one do?” This is an irrelevant question, because our works do not “get” us to heaven as if we were working our way there. The point is that our good works spring from and are empowered by divine grace, and are realized when the regenerated Christian cooperates with that grace.

At this point the protestant will usually admit to an agreement.

The real point of contention is whether our state of grace is something that can be lost or turned away from, as well as the importance of the sacrament of reconciliation for our repentance. The former can be very easily argued with scripture.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

If you find yourself to Lutheranism and you study Luther and how he and Calvin split. It is because he did not give up much of what he learned. The question is do you want to be accepted as an acquited criminal, just in the eyes of God, but not truly just, extrinsic justification or declared to be a child of God, infused with Christs righteousness and made righteous, intrinsic justification.

Ask how one gets the saving Faith in Protestant thought?

I want to study the integrity of what is being said. I’m not interested in the personal quips between Calvin and Luther. I do think the character might have some effect, but not much. Was Luther right? That’s all I need to know.

Many Protestants will ask, “if it is necessary to do good works to attain salvation, how many good works must one do?” This is an irrelevant question, because our works do not “get” us to heaven as if we were working our way there. The point is that our good works spring from and are empowered by divine grace, and are realized when the regenerated Christian cooperates with that grace.

You have essentially just described the Sola Fide position.

I think the real difference between the Catholic view on salvation the Protestant one is, on the whole, semantics. Catholics might see it one way, Protestants from a different angle, but essentially, it’s the same: works come from faith, and are a part of that faith. You cannot divide the two into neatly fitting boxes.

My feeling is that Sola Fide was a strong reaction against what was probably perceived as Catholics simply going through the motions. Given the widespread poverty and chaos that engulfed Europe in that time period, I wouldn’t be surprised. And given the severity of the indulgences scandal, and emphasis on faith was probably needed. I honestly believe that if Luther discussed the question with Benedict XVI today, there wouldn’t be much disagreement. I firmly believe that historical context is key in understanding what happened.

After all, the Catholic Church reformed practices according to the heresies that were widespread, too. I remember opening a thread concerning Holy Communion, and why Catholic practice gave the host, but not the wine. And essentially, the response that I got was due to a heresy that denied that both the body and blood were present in both species, and so the Catholic Church, to show that they really were, began authorizing Communion with the host only (for the laity).

What’s my point? My point is that historical circumstances can provide reactions that might seem to be more significant than they really are. No serious Protestant really believes that you can sit on your hands and have merely the conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord without doing anything.

It’s not fair to accuse Protestants of misrepresenting Catholicism and then implying that Protestants believe you only need a profession of faith to be a good Christian. We all need to take each other’s word for our doctrines.

 

[jadezz]

I’m finding this more and more. They will say that good works must be present as evidence for saving faith. But they are very meticulous to emphasize that our works have no place in salvation… even though they admittedly have to be present in order for saving faith to be realized.

Many Protestants will ask, “if it is necessary to do good works to attain salvation, how many good works must one do?” This is an irrelevant question, because our works do not “get” us to heaven as if we were working our way there. The point is that our good works spring from and are empowered by divine grace, and are realized when the regenerated Christian cooperates with that grace.

At this point the protestant will usually admit to an agreement.

The real point of contention is whether our state of grace is something that can be lost or turned away from, as well as the importance of the sacrament of reconciliation for our repentance. The former can be very easily argued with scripture.

Ever since I was a child, this has been my understanding: "You need to do/be good to go to heaven. If this is not what catholics believe then what? If you say, the point of catholics good works spring from and are empowered by divine grace…etc… then I agree with you.

I was in high school when I started to have this feeling. It was wednesday and we were required to attend a mass. During communion, the students are just too “lazy” that the priest was already at the front and no one yet was in the line to received communion. Our priest got mad at us. He mentioned about all this sins… we sin if we did not get to sunday mass. That you can’t do communion if you have skipped a sunday mass. And you need to confess before you can received communion again. That if you just lining because you got convince by your friend to received communion then DONT. I do believed in the last sentence though. We need to acknowledge its importance before doing so, not just because everybody is doing it. But then, saying you sin just because you miss sunday mass… It’s like a burden. Is it included in the moral law? I was so pressured, that when I went to college I started to have this belief that if I’m just not doing anything wrong to others then I’m okay. My parents can no longer pressured me to go to church, I was free from that obligation (I thought). You see, I saw it as an obligation not because I loved God.

Good works if done because you have to then I don’t believe it. It needs to come from you, that you wanted to not because you have to.

I’m not against catholic teaching, I AM a catholic.
When I attended this protestant church, it was like this burden was lifted out of me. I am free loving God. Without having to worry that “hey, I sin” because I wasn’t able to attend a sunday mass.

If I’m misunderstanding something, please let me know. Right now I just wanted to know God.

 

[rinnie]

Couldn’t express more.
Even though I’m “formally” a catholic, but I believed in “FAITH IN JESUS ALONE”. I believe that Jesus died for our sin, once and for all. If the blood of the Son of God is not enough for our salvation, then what else? I don’t believed in good works to earn your salvation. Instead, good works is the result when you have faith in Him.

This is where It think the problem begins. See when you say that you do good works because you have faith in Christ. We believe that you can’t even have FAITH in Christ without his saving Grace to even begin to have this faith.

That is why as Catholic we say the we believe it is by the Grace of God that we can even have faith, and by that faith and using the good Grace that was given to us, we can work out our Salvation with using his Grace to strenghten our Faith and to do his will by our works.

As Christ said you can tell the tree by the fruit it produces.

To say that Jesus died for our sin once and for all and then to believe that will get us into heaven is not enough.

Christ said faith without works are FRUITLESS.

So how can you have faith without the grace of God. See what I am saying, if you say you do not need the grace of God to gain faith, you are doing it on your own. You must have grace to even Acquire Faith, because all GOOD things come from CHRIST not us. Do you see my point? And if God gives you Grace and by that Grace you acquire faith, but then you have faith, which means you do believe, but you do not use his grace to do HIS works what did you do wth the grace given to you? Are you not fruitless?

 

[jadezz]

You may have not heard Paul correctly. Romans 2:14, the gentiles do the law Romans 4:1-6 about works and if you look at 4:9-12 the work is circumcision. You misunderstand works of law or ceremonial law to be works. Paul is saying being circumcised, a work of the law won’t justify the Judaizing Jew. He is saying that you must keep the Moral Law and you can only keep the Moral law by the righteousness of Christ, not on your own. Your suggestion that works are not important is in conflict with the Epistle of James. It indicates you have not seen that, have probably wrongly been taught that these works are works righteousness and instead are really works of the ceremonial jewish law. Not works as you say.

If as you say Faith is all you need, and if Salvation is the work of God from start to finish as I believe, then where and how did you get this Faith or is it a bargain that God is obligated to give you something becuause you did something?

I like this answer of PbloPicasso, and that’s what I meant, when I say by faith alone.

I used to make the argument against saved by faith and once saved always saved with a pretty negative remark. I said that if I wanted to be part of a group of people that believed in nothing I’d become Baptist. Now, I’ve learned many of my Baptist family do have such beliefs, but it doesn’t match the explanations of other Baptists I’ve spoken with on the subject. So, I’ve discovered that what they mean is only partly true and that even Protestants have luke warm believers too, like we constantly seem to be reminded about by everyone, including Protestants and Catholics.

The word “alone” should never show up anywhere, because it was never part of sacred scritpure dealing with faith.

We are saved by faith.
We are saved by grace.
We are saved by works.

Go read Ephisians 2
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-”

Let me recite from memory what I recall from a bible class through ACU.

“For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and not by works, so that no man can boast, it is the gift of God…”

I think this is a problem with memorizing scripture. Over time we tend to think we remember correctly but have to maintain that memory by frequently reciting it correctly. So many people blindly accept what they think they remember and rarely or never question it.

Faith is important and of course it is our faith, but if we have faith, we know that it is by grace that we have been saved. And if we have faith that we have been saved by Christ then we would logically do good works. But even if we do good works, even through our faith in God, it is the Grace, free gift of God, that saves us.

 

[rinnie]

Ever since I was a child, this has been my understanding: "You need to do/be good to go to heaven. If this is not what catholics believe then what? If you say, the point of catholics good works spring from and are empowered by divine grace…etc… then I agree with you.

I was in high school when I started to have this feeling. It was wednesday and we were required to attend a mass. During communion, the students are just too “lazy” that the priest was already at the front and no one yet was in the line to received communion. Our priest got mad at us. He mentioned about all this sins… we sin if we did not get to sunday mass. That you can’t do communion if you have skipped a sunday mass. And you need to confess before you can received communion again. That if you just lining because you got convince by your friend to received communion then DONT. I do believed in the last sentence though. We need to acknowledge its importance before doing so, not just because everybody is doing it. But then, saying you sin just because you miss sunday mass… It’s like a burden. Is it included in the moral law? I was so pressured, that when I went to college I started to have this belief that if I’m just not doing anything wrong to others then I’m okay. My parents can no longer pressured me to go to church, I was free from that obligation (I thought). You see, I saw it as an obligation not because I loved God.

Good works if done because you have to then I don’t believe it. It needs to come from you, that you wanted to not because you have to.

I’m not against catholic teaching, I AM a catholic.
When I attended this protestant church, it was like this burden was lifted out of me. I am free loving God. Without having to worry that “hey, I sin” because I wasn’t able to attend a sunday mass.

If I’m misunderstanding something, please let me know. Right now I just wanted to know God.

I think what you are saying is you can pretty much do as you want and not have to fest up to it in the Protestant Church like the RCC.

That the RCC has too many rules and obligations, and you are right. We do.

But here is what you have to remember, the Church does not make the rules GOD did? In the protestatant Church who makes up the rules

 

[CopticChristian]

I want to study the integrity of what is being said. I’m not interested in the personal quips between Calvin and Luther. I do think the character might have some effect, but not much. Was Luther right? That’s all I need to know.

You have essentially just described the Sola Fide position.

I think the real difference between the Catholic view on salvation the Protestant one is, on the whole, semantics. Catholics might see it one way, Protestants from a different angle, but essentially, it’s the same: works come from faith, and are a part of that faith. You cannot divide the two into neatly fitting boxes.

It’s not fair to accuse Protestants of misrepresenting Catholicism and then implying that Protestants believe you only need a profession of faith to be a good Christian. We all need to take each other’s word for our doctrines.

I do not agree that what we are speaking of is a semantic difference. In my mind semantics is not just a word play. If you do not understand, I am speaking of General Semantics, and the main tenet of General Semantics is this…“the map is not the territory”.

Everyone has a map in their head of what the universe is and as you can imagine we are constantly refining that map. Words cause us to relay to others what that map is. As we mature, educate, ponder…we change our internal map of the Universe however it is just a map and not necessarily accurate. The map dictates what we do based on our understanding.

Extrinsic Justification, a one time event, is an understanding of the map of what God is doing based on reading a book and someone teaching that thought. Romans 2 an impossibility, Romans 3 Christ does it, Romans 4 we take the righteousness of Christ. That becomes the internal map of the reality of what it is God it doing in the world. This Extrinsic justification having been done, denies that anything else is necessary. Sanctification is a hoax. You should show evidence of Justification, you always have a relationship with Christ however you are not always in fellowship because of sin. There is no need to belong to a Church, the Body of Christ and actions are very different.

Intrinsic Justification a one time event, infused into our soul where we are legally decalred acquitted however in the act of acquital we become infused and transformed by the grace of God so as to become children of God and capable of doing the works that are pleasing to God with Grace, Romans 2 at least 5 times Paul says “doing”. Our map is that Romans 2 is the plan, Romans 3/4 allow us to understand that with Christs grace we can fulfill Romans 2 and we need grace to do it. We avail ourselves through the Church the Body of Christ of the grace to fulfill Romans 2.

This is the Semantic difference. There are two very different internal maps. Those maps are created by two different understandings of what God wants us to know and one of them has to be wrong. I would rather be a child of God than an acquitted criminal.

The map of the New Covenant and the Protestant maps are different and that is why I cannot be Protestant.

 

[jadezz]

I think what you are saying is you can pretty much do as you want and not have to fest up to it in the Protestant Church like the RCC.

That the RCC has too many rules and obligations, and you are right. We do.

But here is what you have to remember, the Church does not make the rules GOD did? In the protestatant Church who makes up the rules

I think you misunderstand me. Yes, I know that we are saved by His grace through faith not by good works because good works is what the result by your faith. You see, before, I do not understand why we’re doing this and that. You need to go to church, you need to do this… etc. The only answer I got is that so I that I can go to heaven. It’s kinda contradicting with God loves us unconditionally. I was not convince with that reasoning so all it left me is that I have this “obligation” and emptiness inside even though Im following what the church wants me to.
I was exposed to this evangelical church(protestant) and it was like my burden has been lift up since I was able to understand (or thought I do) what God really “wants”.

 

[jadezz]

I think what you are saying is you can pretty much do as you want and not have to fest up to it in the Protestant Church like the RCC.

That the RCC has too many rules and obligations, and you are right. We do.

But here is what you have to remember, the Church does not make the rules GOD did? In the protestatant Church who makes up the rules

I believe(well as i observed from this church I went to), protestant Church also get its rules from God. They’re basing it on bible, the “Word of God”

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you misunderstand me. Yes, I know that we are saved by His grace through faith not by good works because good works is what the result by your faith. You see, before, I do not understand why we’re doing this and that. You need to go to church, you need to do this… etc. The only answer I got is that so I that I can go to heaven. It’s kinda contradicting with God loves us unconditionally. I was not convince with that reasoning so all it left me is that I have this “obligation” and emptiness inside even though Im following what the church wants me to.
I was exposed to this evangelical church(protestant) and it was like my burden has been lift up since I was able to understand (or thought I do) what God really “wants”.

There is no need to do anything. In reading the New Testament and Old Testament it appears that peoples that have the 10 commandments are following the 10 commandments and if you recognize that Melchezidek was a priest honoring God then people other than those in the Abrahamic covenant have some notion of honoring God.

God love us unconditionally. I have heard it stated that I love my children unconditionally and yet I continue to Father them and anticipate a response. I love my children as they are but too much to let them stay the way they are. I want them to grow up. I believe as stated that God loves us the way we are but too much to let us stay the way we are and sends us grace, the Spirit to cause us to do the things required. All the parables tell us that sitting and doing nothing is not what God wants us to do.

If you find that you have your burden lifted now and you understand now continue to investigate and ask questions. Your burden may be resolved, may return, or be who knows what. Know one knows but you. Pray for “repentance” that is for God to change your mind to be conformed to His Will as you continue to seek and search. There is nothing more anyone can ask of me or you.

In the context of this thread you will have to wrestle with the choice "acquitted criminal’ or “child of God”. Only you can make that choice.

 

[CopticChristian]

I believe(well as i observed from this church I went to), protestant Church also get its rules from God. They’re basing it on bible, the “Word of God”

The Old Covenant had rules and people complained, left, were dispersed. The New Covenant has rules, people complain, leave and some were dispersed. Rules are rules only if you see them as rules. Rules become guidelines and signposts when you open your mind and repent. Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand or Change your mind…All you have to do is change your mind to understand that the rules your parents taught you to prevent you from getting killed by motor vehicles while young were guidelines and signposts and because of them you are alive. Many children are dead because they did not follow the rules sadly.

 

[jadezz]

There is no need to do anything. In reading the New Testament and Old Testament it appears that peoples that have the 10 commandments are following the 10 commandments and if you recognize that Melchezidek was a priest honoring God then people other than those in the Abrahamic covenant have some notion of honoring God.

God love us unconditionally. I have heard it stated that I love my children unconditionally and yet I continue to Father them and anticipate a response. I love my children as they are but too much to let them stay the way they are. I want them to grow up. I believe as stated that God loves us the way we are but too much to let us stay the way we are and sends us grace, the Spirit to cause us to do the things required. All the parables tell us that sitting and doing nothing is not what God wants us to do.

If you find that you have your burden lifted now and you understand now continue to investigate and ask questions. Your burden may be resolved, may return, or be who knows what. Know one knows but you. Pray for “repentance” that is for God to change your mind to be conformed to His Will as you continue to seek and search. There is nothing more anyone can ask of me or you.

In the context of this thread you will have to wrestle with the choice "acquitted criminal’ or “child of God”. Only you can make that choice.

Thanks. Yes, sitting and doing nothing is what we called dead faith. I know, all I can do is trust God to help me see. And I think we all do need to continue seeking Him.

I found this site while i was searching about what is salvation for Catholic.

“All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 2, 14, p. 337).

 

[CopticChristian]

Thanks. Yes, sitting and doing nothing is what we called dead faith. I know, all I can do is trust God to help me see. And I think we all do need to continue seeking Him.

I found this site while i was searching about what is salvation for Catholic.

“All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 2, 14, p. 337).

We all should pray that we accept the grace to have our minds to be conformed to the mind of God so as to fulfill our purpose so as to be conformed to the image of His Son. You may be interested in EWTN, Journey Home, about many Protestants that make the journey to become Catholic.

ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp