Why I choose not to believe

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AquinasXVI:
Bishop Fulton Sheen said that God has all sorts of clues in creation…like a fingerprint left on glass, we see the print but we do not see the finger that placed it there. Some people casually call this the divine comedy—that he’s playing hide and seek with us. But seeing the pattern on the wings of a butterfly, the countless colors of a sunset, the laughter of children, a full moon; all of this begs the questions and yearnings: who are you, where are you, show yourself to me!!!
On my good days, I also marvel at the beauty of nature. The wild untame magical brilliance of it all.

After I left the church, for awhile I was a Wiccan (I don’t know if you know anything about Wicca, basically, they worship the power and beauty of the natural world. Some people think that it is a form of Satanism, it isn’t. It is the epitome of being a nature lover.) The only problem I had with it (besides some of the people I ran into), was that there was even less of a personal connection. There was a beauty to the world, sure, but there are no… hugs?

Thank-you for your response. You may have been able to tell, I’m a little down tonight. Well, a lot down tonight. I’m not sure that it has made me change my mind at all about God, but even thinking about the fact that there is still a lot of beauty out there is a lift.

Ever
 
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NotWorthy:
Think of it this way. A lot of people came to this thread, and have read it, maybe looking for an affirmation on why they believe. It’s good to examine our conscience from time to time, eh? So, in a way, you’ve helped others who either, a) got a load off their mind, or b) learned something new.

Does this help you? I don’t know. But personally, I’ve never been discouraged after finding out that I helped someone else with a problem.

Take care and keep struggling. You’ll find the surface only if you keep trying.

God Bless!

Notworthy
Hmm, that’s a good point. Okay, at least I can relax and stop feeling like I’ve wasted everyone’s time. Thanks.

Ever
 
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Everstruggling:
The *historical *reality, hmm, sure I guess.
I merely meant to ground Christ’s existence firmly in history before I proceeded to call him God. It’s good to establish that sort of thing before going for broke. 😉
I don’t accept that Jesus was God. To me the story of Jesus was of a man who loved the world.
But that’s rather pointless in the end, isn’t it? The world didn’t love him back. And Peter abandoned him.

Of course, it has much more meaning when viewing it in light of the Resurrection. But, since Jesus isn’t God, that didn’t happen. Right?
Hmm, that’s a part of the problem. If it is, or isn’t, it’s all the same to me.
I don’t think it is all the same, after all, it does make all the difference in the world. That is, if it is there.
You’ve pretty much nailed it. That’s what I’m looking for. Of course, it doesn’t have to be like that. I’d go for an experience like Thomas’ , or Paul’s or Isiah’s or Job’s (I’m fairly partial to Job’s and Thomas’ actually, they leave little to the imagination).
I think this borders on unreasonable. 😉
I think I’d be pretty open to that kind of thing myself. I’m really willing to work with God on this one, if he exists.
This sounds like you and God are business partners. You know, negotiate it with the big guy. Only we’re all quite a bit below his level.
I see. That’s the first problem again then. I don’t believe Jesus was God.
It’s my personal opinion that if anyone was God, it was Jesus, but… alas.
Thanks for taking the time to write, I appreciate the effort.
No prob.
 
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Everstruggling:
My problem is when people tell me that God is loving, or that God is involved in my life. I’ve never experienced God in my life at all. I’ve experienced countless **people **telling me that God is involved, but not God. If God is infinite, if God is all-powerful. Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here. That he knows what I’m going through? I mean he can right? Wouldn’t take any time at all, but he doesn’t. The idea that he exists, that he could do something like that, and that he won’t is so annoying, so hurtful, so blatently cruel, that I choose not to believe.
God can help your unbelief. You just need to ask him him to do so. You can’t even begin to believe on your own.

If you went to yankee stadium and an angel of the Lord showed up in center field and placed his sword on the ground causing the Earth to split with the sound of thunder all the way to home plate would you believe? I say no. You would go home and start finding ways to explain it away. CNN headline news would air a story called "The hoax of the century!!!” Nobody can believe without the spirits help.

As for seeing God as hurtful and cruel. He is love and we are hurtful and cruel to him. You can’t compare God to humans. He has none of our weakness and an immeasurable mind that we can’t even start to imagine. He’s not some big dumb meanie sitting in heaven snickering while he torments us. Just ask him to help you believe and say all of this to him.

-D
 
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Everstruggling:
… I actually entered the seminary. I prayed for decades … finally I decided to stop beating myself up, and just believe that God couldn’t answer. … Now I’m p***ed.
I am reminded of the following story of a Dominican friar:

An upright and fervent friar, who had served the Lord during many years in great purity of heart without experiencing any of those comforts and delights of which he had heard and read, as he stood one night before a great crucifix in the church began fretfully to complain thus to our Lord: ‘Lord, I have heard that thou excellest all creatures in pity and goodness: behold I have served thee these many years past, " keeping to the rough path because of the words of thy lips," giving myself entirely to thee, and striving with my whole heart to observe the rules of my Order. Still I feel convinced that if I had served the most exacting of task-masters but one-quarter of the time, he would have shown me some token of good-will, by a kindly word, or a favour bestowed, imparting some secret, or at least by an approving smile, while thou, Lord, hast not vouchsafed any heavenly sweetness, nor given me the slightest token of favour. Thou who art sweetness itself art bitter to me, and harder than the most callous of masters. What is the meaning of all this, and what can be the cause of it?’

As he repeated these and other presumptuous words, suddenly a great crash was heard as if the church were falling in, while overhead resounded the noise as of a pack of wolves trying to tear off the church roof. Sorely frightened and trembling in every limb, he looked round and saw a hideous monster standing close by, who with uplifted club smote him to the ground. All maimed and in an agony of pain he crawled to an altar hard by, where the stress of his pains forced him to lie, and there he was discovered next morning by the brethren, utterly helpless and suffering severely. Not knowing what had happened, they bore him off to the infirmary, where for three weeks he lay prostrate, his body meanwhile becoming so offensive that hardly anyone could go near him. At last he began to mend, and when cured of his distemper of body and arrogance of soul, he went back to the spot where he had merited wrath, in the hopes of there obtaining pardon of his sin. There he put up this prayer: ‘Lord, "I have sinned against heaven and before thee " (St Luke xv 18), and I own that I am not deserving of thy mercies or unwonted favours; thou hast smitten me in thy justice and mercifully healed me.’ Prone upon the pavement, thrice he most earnestly and suppliantly begged pardon for his previous foolish thoughts and words; then presently a voice sounded in his ears: ‘If you would enjoy comforts and spiritual sweetness, you must first become as vile in your own eyes as the worm and the dirt which you tread beneath your feet.’ He took heart from the words, got up, and after due thanks to God, lovingly and eagerly from that hour espoused holy humility. He himself told the whole affair to the Master of the Order, and lived afterwards to attain high perfection, and hold rank of office among his brethren.

Is that what you want?
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Everstruggling:
If you look at the old testament, there are cases of God coming down and meeting with people who weren’t so happy with him. I’m banking on that or no meeting at all.
Now I am reminded of this excerpt form Scripture:

Judith 7:23 Ozias rising up all in tears, said: Be of good courage, my brethren, and let us wait these five days for mercy from the Lord. 24 For perhaps he will put a stop to his indignation, and will give glory to his own name. 25 But if after five days be past there come no aid, we will do the things which you leave spoken.

Judith 8:10 And they came to her, and she said to them: What is this word, by which Ozias hath consented to give up the city to the Assyrians, if within five days there come no aid to us? 11 And who are you that tempt the Lord? 12 This is not a word that may draw down mercy, but rather that may stir up wrath, and enkindle indignation. 13 You have set a time for the mercy of the Lord, and you have appointed him a day, according to your pleasure. 14 But forasmuch as the Lord is patient, let us be penitent for this same thing, and with many tears let us beg his pardon: 15 For God will not threaten like man, nor be inflamed to anger like the son of man. 16 And therefore let us humble our souls before him, and continuing in an humble spirit, in his service: 17 Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us

Would you be willing to humble yourself forever?

hurst
 
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this struggle, Everstruggling. There’s some excellent advice here already. What you might have forgotten is that the point of our entire earthly existence is to see God, why should He give you your reward before your time? Faith is a necessity for salvation, if He shows Himself to you in such a way you no longer need faith, but have knowledge… then faith would be a cruel, needless joke to everyone else.
Also, faith is a precondition of experiencing God. Moses, Job, Saul of Tarsus… they all had faith before God revealed something to them. Saul had faith in God–he was just misinformed about Jesus Christ. The Apostle Thomas was a faithful Jew and disciple, but again, was unsure of Jesus’ resurrection (he may have been influenced by the Sadducees). We need to have at least *some *faith in God before He will confirm us in it. And don’t forget those immortal words of Jesus to Thomas: “blessed are those who believe, but have not seen.”

Also, what about Pascal’s Wager? What do you have to lose by believing in God? In truth… nothing. What do you have to lose by *not *believing in Him? Potentially… everything.
 
Many years ago I had some of the same struggles. I didn’t believe or disbelieve - a practicing agnostic. The question of whether God existed or not seems an interesting (intellectual) exercise, but not very relevant. But something changed in that I began to realise it was not irrelevant to my life. I realised that I was, in practice acting as though I believed God did not exist. So I decided to act as though I did believe in God (sounds odd but I can’t explain it properly). I based my faith on the wonderful good people I knew who did believe. Slowly a more solid faith did come.
Someone said we want to understand so that we can believe, but in reality we have to believe before we can understand.
I know people who have had wonderful experiences of God, to whom God is there present with them. I haven’t had those experiences, but I still hold on to my belief because I know God is there, I can see him at work, though sometimes he is very subtle, and I believe that he loves me.
The book of Job is about Job’s struggle to understand, but in the end he has to admit he doesn’t understand “I have been holding forth on matters I cannot understand, on marvels beyond me and my knowledge” (Job 42:3)
Read though chapter 28 and then chapters 38/39. Wonderful stuff.
God bless you.
 
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Everstruggling:
I’m not trying to thumb my nose at anyone…
Except at God, who you admit exists.
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Everstruggling:
Fine, God exists, big deal.
…,
Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here.
(Removed personal remark) Who are you to demand anything more from God than He has already done?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Everstruggling…

God wants to give you something…the true desire of your heart. I don’t know what that is…maybe you don’t either…I know that I didn’t know what it was until He gave it to me…Go before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament…just sit there. Even if you don’t believe. What do you have to lose? Your unhappiness? Talk to God the way you’ve been talking to us. Go as often as it takes…

I also recommend a Life in the Spirit Seminar. Find one in your area and go through it. I pray you will experience God the way you need Him.
 
Regardless of what we have done in the past (believed in God as a child, entered a seminary etc…) it makes no difference unless we recognise what God is. He is not some higher being, nor the top of all the beings in existence. He is reality itself, it is Him and Him alone that sustains the universe. He is infinitely vast, and his Mercy knows no bounds.

Did you know that some of the great saints talked about the spiritual dryness you speak of. It is common, but is used by God ONLY to strengthen your faith.

I often have times where God does not let me feel Him, or the devil plagues we with doubts. And often I would let the doubts get the better of me. However, what we have to realise is that we must trust wholly in the Lord. When we do, he is so kind and loving, and bestows grace upon us.

You are in that slump period when you have questions that dont have answers. I went through so many of these periods, I begged, i cried, why God WHY wont you just show yourself to me. It wont hurt you, and it will help me sooo much. Alas, to no immediate result. But of course NOW i realise that although I did not get an apparition, my faith in God now is so much stronger because I have no proof, I have no answer to some of my questions, but i have faith. And the more you trust in the Lord, the more he will show to you.

Blessed are those who believe, and have not seen.

These things take time. And im sure you went through periods in the seminary when things were great, and contact with God was present. However, we must remember that for our greater good, ive shown you how God leaving me with only trust in Him as an option helped me, it has led me to grow in faith
.

TRUST in the Lord. He knows your problems, he knows your worries. Just put faith in Him, even if you feel doubtful. Do not base your life on feelings. Christ said to one saint:

Do not be guided by feeling, because it is not always under control; but all merit lies in the will.

Will with all your heart to trust in the Lord. And he will come.

In Christ.

Andre.
 
You have free will as all of us were given. You have not been evangelized and it happened even to father John Corapi at one point in his life. Talk about someone getting the ultimate wake up call, if you do not know of his promenience within the Catholic Church as one of the best defenders and orators of the faith, then listen to him. He has many CD’s, video tapes, sometimes on EWTN tv and radio (Saturday nights 9 pm.-eststd.-www.ewtn.com). Also, you might be evangelized by Scott Hahn a conversion person and major doctorate of the Church, and Steven Ray another conversion, they also both have books, cd’s, tapes.

John Corapi’s reversion story is amazing, listen to “Personal Testimony” he had millions of dollars in the secular world and was living large, thought he probably did not need God in his life. His story after his fall by way of drugs from the Hollywood culture and much later after being total bankrupt as a person and in money, left him on the streets of L.A. as homeless person. The rest of the story you need to here from his tape, look for it and listen.

Satan and evil are in our face daily today and will get you mind body and soul (don’t think so, look at how our culture is changing to a culture of death and evil). The armor you are going to need is his, if you will only wear it (embrace it). Try it on after you get the alterations of evangelization!!!

No God, No Way…Know God, Know Way
(there is a way and the life)
 
(Matthew 7:7-8) “Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For the one who asks always receives; the one who searches always finds; the one who knocks will always have the door opened to him.”

It seems to me if someone is struggling to understand and is trying hard to get close and really have a relationship with God, they should keep knocking.

Personally I have had many times where Jesus has come to me in very real and personal ways. My wife has also had many encounters with God, but at times He comes to her much different than how He comes to me.

I personally believe until Jesus comes to a person, that person should just listen, and read the Word of God, live His Word to the best of their ability. When Jesus comes to them and gives them His Holy Spirit is when they will get to know Him and live His Word more fully.
Giver
 
Giver said:
(Matthew 7:7-8) “Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For the one who asks always receives; the one who searches always finds; the one who knocks will always have the door opened to him.”

Good point, Robert. Let us also look at yesterday’s Gospel where Jesus walks along the shore and tells John, Peter, Andrew, and another Apostle to Follow Him.

God will come to us in the most mundane of times, we just need to look for Him.

Notworthy
 
Go look for Him.
You have a guarantee that you will find.
But your guarantee is null and void if you give up before you start.
It is not seek for a while…
It is seek and you will…
 
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Everstruggling:
Hi,

My problem is when people tell me that God is loving, or that God is involved in my life. I’ve never experienced God in my life at all. I’ve experienced countless **people **telling me that God is involved, but not God. If God is infinite, if God is all-powerful. Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here. That he knows what I’m going through? I mean he can right? Wouldn’t take any time at all, but he doesn’t. The idea that he exists, that he could do something like that, and that he won’t is so annoying, so hurtful, so blatently cruel, that I choose not to believe.
Hello Eveerstruggling.
You sound a lot like I used to be. In reading through this threads it is obvious to me that you are a truth-seeker. I dabbled in protestant theology, wiccan philosphy, numerology, buddha, all sorts of stuff, but was never really fulfilled. I was always questioning why God just doesn’t tell me something.

When I was in my late 40’s, I think I had pretty much given up about the existence of God. Then one day, I came across the opening statements in Revelations, where it says something like “he who reads this aloud shall receive a blessing”. So I went into my study and read the whole book out loud. Hindsight is 20/20, I think this started a whole series of events for the next several years. Although during this time I still didn’t believe.

Then came the time for my children’s confirmation. Our Church made it mandatory that the child and the sponsor attend a retreat. Something I tried to wriggle out of. But I went because it was mandatory. Well sir, OUT OF THE CLEAR BLUE SKY, I met the Holy Spirit that weekend. It changed my life forever. It hit me like of ton of bricks. I didn’t deserve him, (I am a sinner), I wasn’t looking for him, and I had absolutely no expectations of him. A series of Miracles would follow that event, miracles that happen on occasion right up to a week ago.

They say hindsight is 20/20, well looking back on it I would say that God is always offering, it is up to us to accept. But I think my spirit was so far from God, that I had to be caught off guard, by his presence, in order to accept him. This event was so powerful, that I liken it to being blown off of a horse, or having a ton of bricks fall on you.

To sum it up, “Keep searching” (hang in there) maybe someday it will happen to you too, quite unexpectedly. Perhaps try some Catholic Retreats ( I recommend CRHP), where they expect the Holy Spirit to be.

Chipper
 
You seem like a bright fellow so I’ll throw this your way.

The one and only way to discern truth is to first act rigorously as if the thing you doubted were true. That’s not a religious bromide, it’s how all knowledge is obtained; it’s how science works.

Don’t believe it?

Take the law relating gas pressure to volume and temperature:

P = k VT

How do you find out if it is true?

You take two sets of measurements of pressure, volume, and temperature. The first set of measurements you use to solve k.

Then, you assume the attitude that the theory is true, and you take it for a test-drive. You plug in your solution for k, and you then compute a prediction for P by multiplying k VT. Then you see if P is close to what was predicted. You suspend your doubt, and give the theory a chance to prove itself by personally engaging in its viewpoint, its operations, and its rules.

This isn’t blowing smoke at you, it’s a fact. It is impossible, simply impossible to prove something to yourself by speculating on what might happen, or what some dude told you might or might not happen. That’s not discernment, it’s sloth.

You have to adopt the Catholic faith and live it 100% as if it were true, and then see how it fits. Millions and millions of us have found that if you abandon yourself and live it, you begin to see everything that Christ promised.

The operative word here is abandon. You have to loosen your grip on your control over things, and make yourself a servant to others, through Christ. Then you can come back later and tell us what happened.
 
Everlasting,

I can relate to your issue completely.

When contimplating this, casting evidence in the direction of the affirmative of a loving God, I often look at it the following way.

God, desires to lead us to holiness. The reason He does this is because Heaven, our ultimate and everlasting life (hopefully) will be one of holiness.

He doesn’t desire to accomplish this by simply creating us holy, against our free will. He prefers us to come to this holiness of our own free will. With the help His divine assistance and grace.

Part of this journey, Everlasting, is the struggle we share. The constant inner battle of faith, of our belief. It’s part of the plan for you and I. Our struggle leads us to investigation. Investigation of good vs. evil, of the power of love, of listeing, carefully, to the words of the Gospel.

If Jesus revealed Himself to you physically and you became a devout follower of His from that point in time forward, you’d never know for yourself how far you’d have journeyed to holiness without the revelation. You’d question yourself throughout eternity.

Having said this, I’d be dishonest if I were to say I don’t desire a revelation myself. A tangable piece of evidence that would satisfy my curiousities, my doubts and my logic.

I share your struggle. Hopefully my way of thinking makes some sense to you.
 
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Everstruggling:
Hi,

I’m not trying to thumb my nose at anyone, nor am I trying to convert others to my point of view. I’m much, much too unhappy a person to try and recruit a team of followers.

I’m starting this thread because:
  1. I haven’t come across a lot of people that feel/think the same way I do, and I’m interested if there are others that agree with my reasons
  2. I could be missing something. :bigyikes:
  3. In a way, it’s like a kind of prayer. A last ditch plea that God will show up and explain Himself. (Hmm, I know I’m going to catch flak for that comment)
I’ve had many great discussions about this with people on the site, and I’ve gained some great insights. But so far I’ve managed to cling tenuously to my doubt. Here’s why:

The question of whether or not God exists is totally irrelevant to me. I’m more than willing to concede that there is a first mover, that my moral compass in fact did come from somewhere, that I in fact do have a notion of perfection, that things exist. Fine, God exists, big deal. It’s as relevent to me as someone proving that “2” or “red” exist.

My problem is when people tell me that God is loving, or that God is involved in my life. I’ve never experienced God in my life at all. I’ve experienced countless **people **telling me that God is involved, but not God. If God is infinite, if God is all-powerful. Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here. That he knows what I’m going through? I mean he can right? Wouldn’t take any time at all, but he doesn’t. The idea that he exists, that he could do something like that, and that he won’t is so annoying, so hurtful, so blatently cruel, that I choose not to believe.
I personally think your struggling because God has called you. You’re unhappy because you haven’t answered His call.
Giver
 
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Everstruggling:
… I’ve never experienced God in my life at all. I’ve experienced countless **people **telling me that God is involved, but not God. If God is infinite, if God is all-powerful. Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here. That he knows what I’m going through? I mean he can right? Wouldn’t take any time at all, but he doesn’t. …
I‘m reminded of the story of the man who lived by the river.

A radio announcement comes on and says that a storm is coming and people living down by the river should evacuate because of flooding.

And the man says. “I’m a man of faith…God will save me.”

A few hours later as the water is lapping at his porch steps and the Sherif knocks on his door and says “Get in my car. You have to evacuate the river is flooding.”

And the man says. “I’m a man of faith…God will save me.”

A few hours later the man is sitting on the roof of his house, surrounded by water, and the Coast Guard Helicopter comes along. The pilot leans out the window and says. “Grab the rope. You have to evacuate the river is flooding.”

And the man says. “I’m a man of faith…God will save me.”

later the river rises further and drowns the man. He gets to Heaven and says “God, I’m a man of faith, why didn’t you save me?”

and God says “Look, I sent the radio warning, the Sherif, the helicopter…what more do you want?”

sure, it’s an old joke
but sometimes they are the best 😉
 
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Everstruggling:
Hi,

I’m not trying to thumb my nose at anyone, nor am I trying to convert others to my point of view. I’m much, much too unhappy a person to try and recruit a team of followers.

I’m starting this thread because:
  1. I haven’t come across a lot of people that feel/think the same way I do, and I’m interested if there are others that agree with my reasons
  2. I could be missing something. :bigyikes:
  3. In a way, it’s like a kind of prayer. A last ditch plea that God will show up and explain Himself. (Hmm, I know I’m going to catch flak for that comment)
I’ve had many great discussions about this with people on the site, and I’ve gained some great insights. But so far I’ve managed to cling tenuously to my doubt. Here’s why:

The question of whether or not God exists is totally irrelevant to me. I’m more than willing to concede that there is a first mover, that my moral compass in fact did come from somewhere, that I in fact do have a notion of perfection, that things exist. Fine, God exists, big deal. It’s as relevent to me as someone proving that “2” or “red” exist.

My problem is when people tell me that God is loving, or that God is involved in my life. I’ve never experienced God in my life at all. I’ve experienced countless **people **telling me that God is involved, but not God. If God is infinite, if God is all-powerful. Could he not once, just once, come down and tell me he’s here. That he knows what I’m going through? I mean he can right? Wouldn’t take any time at all, but he doesn’t. The idea that he exists, that he could do something like that, and that he won’t is so annoying, so hurtful, so blatently cruel, that I choose not to believe.
He left us here to do that empowered by his holy Spirit. To the degree that I have failed - and all others, who identify themselves as the body of Christ - have failed to help you see this, please understand that it is not God’s fault; its ours.

Phil
 
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