Why I choose not to believe

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

…but that story of the domincan friar, is that what you think God is like? He’ll smite you down if you point out his unkindness?

I provided that story because that friar, like you, had served God for years doing his best, and having heard of certain privileges others had received, finally demanded that he too should have them.

Josue 24:20 If you leave the Lord, and serve strange gods, he will turn, and will afflict you, and will destroy you after all the good he hath done you.

Everstruggling:

I thought most people believed in loving gods.

Yes, and we should learn of His meekness in Jesus

Matthew 11:29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.

Psalms 149:4 For the Lord is well pleased with his people: and he will exalt the meek unto salvation.

Isaias 29:19 And the meek shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Matthew 5:4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.

But God is not a wimp. He will ultimately defend the meek against the wicked.

Psalms 146:6 The Lord lifteth up the meek, and bringeth the wicked down even to the ground.

Isaias 11:4 But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: land he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

Ecclesiasticus 10:17 God hath overturned the thrones of proud princes, and hath set up the meek in their stead.

In the Old Testament, there are numerous cases where the Israelites aroused God to punish them by means of their neighboring enemies. Same here: that friar went too far in his arrogance and God allowed some monster to smite him.

If God really ignored us, then the enemy would have already overtaken us.

Everstruggling:

But yes, I would rather be smitten by a hateful God rather than believe that a loving God is just ignoring me.

Are you calling down punishment on yourself, just to see God pay attention to you?

I suppose those in Hell prefer their just punishment to simply being ignored. We are taught that their greatest pain is the loss of God’s favor. So the other pains are less than the pain of being ignored by God. You seem to verify this in your sentiments.

Everstruggling:

As for the second story, again, I don’t see anything wrong with demanding God come down. I’ve asked for answers fairly humbly for a long time, and got no response. I’m a little tired of it.

The problem relevant to the second story is that you gave Him a time limit. You had stopped waiting and have now allowed the enemy to occupy the city of your soul.

Everstruggling:

If I get wrath in response, better that than what I’m getting now.

Have you ever considered the following situation?

Exodus 20:19 Saying to Moses: Speak thou to us, and we will hear: let not the Lord speak to us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said to the people: Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that the dread of him might be in you, and you should not sin.

Everstruggling:

I’m not entirely sure that I understood the stories. Did I misinterpret them?

Only slightly, but I think I corrected that with this post.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

Do you want something really bad to happen in your life? Get me to pray for you. I’ve managed to kill people who were perfectly healthy, have people go blind, have marriages end, have people go insane, and have people people be completely isolated. And I’ve prayed for faith. Every prayer I prayed seemed to drive me farther away, as if God truly answered my prayers with “Take a hike, and quit bugging me.”

You have apparently been rejected. I think a serious possibility is demonic vexation and/or assault based primarily on a curse that has hit you, perhaps through no fault of your own.

Perhaps there is a curse active from your ancestors.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

I know of certain good Catholic ministries that help people with this affliction.

Certainly God does not give us more than we can handle. If God is allowing this it is because He is putting you in a position to exercise the virtue you have. God tests all of us in this manner, and we who overcome will be rewarded.

Everstruggling:

I think that faith is a choice. Faith in the scientific method, faith in philosophy, faith in God; I think it all comes down to faith.
…
I don’t think that there is going to be a response. I find it strange that none of you seem to think so either. …

The reason is perhaps in this verse:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

But you must persevere.

hurst

 

[Everstruggling]

Sherlock:

Taking the time to look at one’s life with gratitude is a start. This can be tough for affluent Americans: we take many things for granted. One practical suggestion for the OP is to volunteer at a soup kitchen or visit the sick----this might help him to see the gifts and love he has experienced without realizing it

Just for the record:

1. Not particularly affluent.
2. Not American
3. I volunteer with the homeless (not at a soup kitchen though)
   and with people who have mental health issues and people with drug addictions
4. My job is to provide advocacy and support to people with liver disease

Hmm, maybe that’s part of why I’m down. I’m not around a lot of happy people very often.

 

[allhers]

Everstruggling:

Hi hurst

I won’t quote the whole story here, anyone that wants to read it can find your last post, but that story of the domincan friar, is that what you think God is like? He’ll smite you down if you point out his unkindness? I thought most people believed in loving gods. But yes, I would rather be smitten by a hateful God rather than believe that a loving God is just ignoring me.

As for the second story, again, I don’t see anything wrong with demanding God come down. I’ve asked for answers fairly humbly for a long time, and got no response. I’m a little tired of it. If I get wrath in response, better that than what I’m getting now.

I’m not entirely sure that I understood the stories. Did I misinterpret them?

Ever

No, I’m not hurst, however, I did notice the above in your post and I would like to point out that it isn’t HIM who is ignoring YOU. I do believe more that likely that it is the other way around. Read the book of Job.

 

[batteddy]

I see. That’s the first problem again then. I don’t believe Jesus was God.

Thomas’ , or Paul’s or Isiah’s or Job’s

Why would you believe an experience like Thomas’s or Paul’s or Isaiah’s or Job’s any more than you believe Jesus?!

Jesus said he was God and he was in fact God. That was God telling us quite overtly that he existed and loved us.

But you say, basically, “Well, I don’t believe Jesus was God…he was a man, and could have been lying. Other people could declare themselves God and that would not make it so…”

Fine. My question is, why would you believe a flash of light, or a booming voice, or a big hand from the sky, or someone appearing out of nowhere anymore than you believe Jesus?

Couldn’t all those things be fake too? I could give you some drugs to make you hallucinate. You could see some of those things then. I could fake an elaborate act with loud speakers and people dressed like angels on tethers and burst into your house and say God exists. If He came in a dream, you could say it was all just an illusion made up by your mind. I could use elaborate special effects to do something really overt…but it wouldn’t be God.

If you don’t believe God when he comes down in the flesh and declares His truth, because you believe it might not have been God just because the lies of others have obscured the truth (“No, I’m Spartacus!” ) then nothing will convince you. Miracles can be faked, it could all be super-tecnology, or alien psi-powers…in the end, to one who doubts, an overt sign is no more convincing than God coming down and meekly stating the plain and simple truth…

And besides just Jesus, there have probably been many rather overt signs in your own life that you have put off as mere coincidence. To one who doubts, no overt sign is enough.

Try this from the First Book of Kings, Chapter 19:

11 Then the LORD said, “Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD; the LORD will be passing by.” A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the LORD–but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake–but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12 After the earthquake there was fire–but the LORD was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.
13 When he heard this, Elijah hid his face in his cloak and went and stood at the entrance of the cave. A voice said to him, “Elijah, why are you here?”

God is in the tiny whispering sound, not the overt signs. Because you can rationalize away overt signs, you can say it was all an illusion or an elaborate fake. But when you choose to respond to God’s grace, it is an experience you cannot deny.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

1. Look at (people, nature, other things) This is God showing his love to you.

Everstruggling:

Here’ s the problem. What would my life be like if there was no God.

You wouldn’t have a life - nothing would. That each of us lives, is itself a reason to believe in God​

Well, if there is a God, then there was

never a state where there was no God. So, we can not possiblely know what would happen if there was no God.## That is to think of God as though God were related to time in the same way as we are. God is the Being from Whose reality everything else takes its reality - Time/space is, because God is; not the other way about. Even if it is a purely mental construction, corresponding to nothing in the “real world” of human life, its being as a that mental construction is an echo of the “really real” Being of God. ##

If there is no God, presumably there never was a God, and we would have no way of knowing what that is like either. So, life with there being a God, or with there being no God, could look exactly the same.

Unless you can create a God-free-zone and a God-rich-zone, and compare the two, there is no way of proving how God effects things. ## God can’t be cordoned off from His own creations though. Your suggestion asks God to stop being Infinite, so that you can see how the world (which is impossible without Him) would get function if God were finite. The conditions for the experiment presuppose that God is not God; though that may not be evident. Which would mean you would get a false answer. The method is inadequate to the proposed test; & in any case, the test is for testing a state of things that is without meaning.

That does not mean that God-talk is meaningless; it does not mean that God is unknowable; God can be known - but the only terms on which this possible, are God’s. That is the basic valid method: God can be known in many ways: but which ones suit which persons and underwhat circumstances, we don’t get to choose. He’s in the driving seat - we aren’t.
Being God means…being God; not being something less. ##

People showing concern is either people showing concern or God showing concern through other people. How can you possiblely know which one it is.

As people have said, God works by means of His creations. Not always, but often. How do we know ? Because we know God just enough, to know a little about what He is like: not because we are wise - because He is.​

I could decide that it is God, but then I could decide you were all being controled by aliens as well. (Is anyone still reading this? My compliments if you have.)## Sure - Hope you don’t mind the comments, after all those other posts. ##

…continue…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

1. What right do I have to ask God to come to me on my terms?

Yes, I guess I am being rather arrogant. I want God to show up and appear to me in a way that I can understand. ## If we want God, having that want satisfied in a way that destroys us is no good. If He is to fulfil the desire for Him which He has given us, it has to be in a way that won’t destroy us.

God comes to us in our consciences; in other people; in our friendships; in all experiences - if only we are able recognise Him. There is no such thing as a “God-free zone”: there is God - or there is nothing. Only God can see God as God really is - for us to do so, here, would be like exposing a moth to the very heart of the sun. To have God “in a way [we] can understand”, we have to have a sufficiently watered-down taste of Him for us to appreciate it for what it is. A double whisky may be wonderful for a grown-up - but not for a one-year old child.

And while on earth, we are not grown up - we cannot endure the full light of God as it is in Heaven, far less enjoy it. It would kill us, not make us glad. See what a mere sun-burn does to us - the Light of God is far more terrible than that. A little water quenches thirst - a lot, drowns us. God is not a feeble little trickle, but an infinite ocean, not of water, but of Life in its fullness. “Man cannot bear very much reality” - & God is nothing but Reality: not too lacking in reality to be described, but far too Real. God is far too Real & Living, to be bearable to us at present. That is why Jesus is a “dumbed-down” edition of Him: He is God made bearable to man, by being God as man. Even God cannot do more than give God to man - and that exactly what He has done. He has nothing more to give. ##

I’m shouting at the heavens looking for a response. I wrote a friend of mine (I hope he doesn’t mind me applying the term friend. We’ve never actually met.) to tell him why I wrote this thread. I don’t think I can explain in much better than I did then.

The people in the Bible that God responded to were not always the most meek and mild. Jacob wasn’t exactly humble. Job accused God of being unjust. When it came to Jesus, people tugged at his robes, broke into his friend’s house and crowded around him.

I’m hoping that if I yell loud enough, rage long enough, stamp my foot, wave my fist, scream, and rant, and rave. That maybe I can shame God into at least posting on a message board. To make some sort of appearance.

I’ve tried praying till I was blue in the face, and I got bupkiss for it. Now I’m screaming. I don’t think that there is going to be a response. I find it strange that none of you seem to think so either.

I’ve been accused of being a lot of things, but never a person who loves by halves. If God exists, if he is worthy of my adoration, then I will quite happily dedicate my life to him. But I’m not going to work for a guy I’ve never met.## Maybe you’re making too much noise to be able to hear Him. ## [rest snipped]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle of Geer:

You wouldn’t have a life - nothing would. That each of us lives, is itself a reason to believe in God #### That is to think of God as though God were related to time in the same way as we are. God is the Being from Whose reality everything else takes its reality - Time/space is, because God is; not the other way about. Even if it is a purely mental construction, corresponding to nothing in the “real world” of human life, its being as a that mental construction is an echo of the “really real” Being of God. #### God can’t be cordoned off from His own creations though. Your suggestion asks God to stop being Infinite, so that you can see how the world (which is impossible without Him) would get function if God were finite. The conditions for the experiment presuppose that God is not God; though that may not be evident. Which would mean you would get a false answer. The method is inadequate to the proposed test; & in any case, the test is for testing a state of things that is without meaning.​

That does not mean that God-talk is meaningless; it does not mean that God is unknowable; God can be known - but the only terms on which this possible, are God’s. That is the basic valid method: God can be known in many ways: but which ones suit which persons and underwhat circumstances, we don’t get to choose. He’s in the driving seat - we aren’t.
Being God means…being God; not being something less. #### As people have said, God works by means of His creations. Not always, but often. How do we know ? Because we know God just enough, to know a little about what He is like: not because we are wise - because He is. ## ## Sure - Hope you don’t mind the comments, after all those other posts.“Fish swim - birds fly - men pray”: they have their environment - and we have our Environment.
We are nothing compared to many insects, trees, or fish or planets: we are fewer, weaker, more fragile, slower, smaller, shorter-lived, & so on. One thing we can do: & that is, be loved by God & love God in return.

The whole point of having that want in the first place, is so that it can be satisfied. So having that want and being aware of it is a healthy sign. What would be odd, is if there were God - & He were unwanted. He is wanted, precisely because we are so designed that we cannot be at peace within ourselves or with others unless we have Him. ##

…continue…]

 

[Chris_W]

Hey there, Ever,

I’ve read through all the posts so far. I hope you can appreciate the significance of the heart felt outpouring that has occurred here in response to your struggle. …kind of a hug of sorts I think from the loving people here.

Your struggle has occupied my mind and prayers, Ever. Like you, I contemplate “Why? What does this mean?” A thought occured to me tonight (that happens once in a while ) that I thought I’d share with you:

I consider the difference between you and a relative of mine who is a staunch atheist.

My relative is wealthy, very wealthy. He is handsome, well built. Married a beautiful woman (my sister) who loves him dearly and has born him two amazingly attractive children who are healthy, well behaved, and loving.

He’s never given to the poor (that I’m aware of). He never volunteers, even to help family members. He loves the world, and the world seems to love him. He lives by his own corrupt moral standards, and supports the things Christians despise.

Not only does he not believe in God, but he couldn’t possibly care less if He does or doesn’t exist.

Now, let’s compare that to what we know of you so far: You were raised Catholic, even entered the seminary, prayed for much of your life. Genuinely care about other people. Have put forth effort in trying to know God. Long to sense God in your life.

And you have had prayers go unanswered, ill people get worse, family and friends whose relationships fell apart, loved ones have lost their faith in despair, etc.

Quite a comparison really.

Okay, now to my point. Consider which person God has been more merciful to. What is mercy when backed by wisdom? Human wisdom might see things the way you have expressed them here. But there is another way to view things:

I would argue that God has not been so merciful to my brother-in-law. He’s been blessed by the world so to speak, so much so that he has no need whatsoever for God.

You on the other hand, have been shown mercy, Ever, believe it or not. For through your suffering God has allowed you to need Him, to long for Him with a broken heart, to seek to know Him.

Sometimes unanswered prayers are more merciful than requests granted.

I pray that God will show my family members the mercy he’s shown you, so that in tears they too may seek Him.

God loves you my friend. Keep praying. Keep asking for faith. And perhaps add some thanksgiving in the perspective I’ve offered you here.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

batteddy:

Why would you believe an experience like Thomas’s or Paul’s or Isaiah’s or Job’s any more than you believe Jesus?!

Jesus said he was God and he was in fact God. That was God telling us quite overtly that he existed and loved us.

But you say, basically, “Well, I don’t believe Jesus was God…he was a man, and could have been lying. Other people could declare themselves God and that would not make it so…”

Fine. My question is, why would you believe a flash of light, or a booming voice, or a big hand from the sky, or someone appearing out of nowhere anymore than you believe Jesus?

Couldn’t all those things be fake too? I could give you some drugs to make you hallucinate. You could see some of those things then. I could fake an elaborate act with loud speakers and people dressed like angels on tethers and burst into your house and say God exists. If He came in a dream, you could say it was all just an illusion made up by your mind. I could use elaborate special effects to do something really overt…but it wouldn’t be God.

If you don’t believe God when he comes down in the flesh and declares His truth, because you believe it might not have been God just because the lies of others have obscured the truth (“No, I’m Spartacus!” ) then nothing will convince you. Miracles can be faked, it could all be super-tecnology, or alien psi-powers…in the end, to one who doubts, an overt sign is no more convincing than God coming down and meekly stating the plain and simple truth…

And besides just Jesus, there have probably been many rather overt signs in your own life that you have put off as mere coincidence. To one who doubts, no overt sign is enough.

Try this from the First Book of Kings, Chapter 19:

11 Then the LORD said, “Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD; the LORD will be passing by.” A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the LORD–but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake–but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12 After the earthquake there was fire–but the LORD was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.
13 When he heard this, Elijah hid his face in his cloak and went and stood at the entrance of the cave. A voice said to him, “Elijah, why are you here?”

God is in the tiny whispering sound, not the overt signs. Because you can rationalize away overt signs, you can say it was all an illusion or an elaborate fake. But when you choose to respond to God’s grace, it is an experience you cannot deny.

A first-class post - 11/10 ​

 

[I_Leatherman]

"Take a hike, and quit bugging me. " - Ever.
Hey! why not, it worked for Elijah.
Find a mountain-top, and dont leave 'till you are answered.

 

[Philomena]

Ever,

In your work with the suffering and needy, you are with Jesus every day!!! He speaks to you through these people! You are truly blessed! The only thing you are lacking is JOY in helping all those little Christs. That is what you want. Pray for JOY so YOU can be Christ to THEM.

 

[RyanL]

Everstruggling:

There are four possibilities I see. They are all logical for some reason or another.

1. Jesus didn’t exist. He was a myth pure and simple, like Hercules.
2. Jesus was a man, nothing more.
3. Jesus was a prophet. He was in tune with a higher state of being and he managed to transcend death.
4. Jesus was the son of God, and was God.

#3 is the one that is least logical, but oddly enough, the one I like to believe. Kind of trying to have it both ways.

Everstruggling,

I like your humor. Despite your longing, you’re still funny!

While your break-down is not bad, I prefer C.S. Lewis’:

Liar, Lunitic, or Lord

This rejects your #1 and #3. I think the history is sufficient to debunk #1, but if you disagree I would recommend Lee Strobel’s The Case for Christ. It also rejects your #3, for the following reason:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is one thing that we must not say.

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who said he was a poached egg - or else He would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.

“You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

Just thought I’d offer this up for your consideration.

God Bless, and keep struggling.

RyanL

 

[RobNY]

1. Jesus was a prophet. He was in tune with a higher state of being and he managed to transcend death.

#3 is the one that is least logical, but oddly enough, the one I like to believe. Kind of trying to have it both ways.

I think the basis for three is sound. Jesus is a compelling teacher and a good man. He is incisive, compassionate and even creative. But I think the conclusion from that is wrong.

When you say that Jesus attained a ‘higher state of being,’ and ‘transcended death,’ he sounds more like a Hindu (well, Eastern) mystic than a Jewish prophet. The problem is that Jesus is essentially Jewish, not Eastern.

Tie this into what RyanL posted from C.S. Lewis. When Jesus claims to be God, he does so from the perspective of a man with deeply Jewish roots, who is a practicing Jew. When he claims to be God, he really and truly claims to be God. He does not mean the god of the various eastern religions, nor of the immanent god which is basically everything, but the monotheistic, personal creator of the Jews. Yahweh. And if Jesus is really Yahweh, well, that’s a whole different ballgame.

Good luck in your struggles,
Rob

 

[Everstruggling]

Hey everyone,

One thing I noticed seems to come up a lot is the idea that God is already as involved in my life as he ever is going to be. That I’m just not seeing it. So if I start looking around I will see God everywhere.
My friends can be showing me kindness because they are, in fact, kind. Or it can be God showing himself. So my question is: What isn’t a sign of God’s love? I mean, it seems that everything that happens to me is attributable to God. Isn’t this just the same as saying that God is no more than a metaphore? That “seeing God” just means “being optimistic” or “looking on the bright side”?

If all God is a metaphore for love and joy. And being connected to Him means nothing other than looking at every good thing that happens as a gift. Then why bother with all of the rest of it? Why build churches, and fight with people in forums? Why worry about whether gays marry, or don’t marry, or use the word “gay” or live in the same neighbourhood, or go to the same schools, or worry about whether your kids highschool teacher went home with a guy at the bar last night? Why the mitres, the croziers, the books, and books and books of rules? Why not have female priests? Why have priests? I mean if all God is is just a figment of your imaginations? If the only way he ever acts is a …

I’ve gone and got carried away. I shouldn’t do that. Someone is bound to read all of that and feel the need to defend all of the particulars of Catholic faith and doctrine. That’s not the point I was trying to make. It was just a train of thought I went off on. My point is actually just the first part: If God is all around me, in all the people around me, and all of the things that happen, how is that really different than saying it’s just pretend.

The other thing I find weird is, was I the only one holding out any hope that God was actually going to show? I mean in a real, tangible, intelligible way? hurst seemed to consider it a possibility that I would get a wrathful response, and I Leatherman may have considered it, but it could also have been a joke. I thought that maybe one person would have said, “I’ll pray he does show up for you.” or even “Give it a bit of time and he will.”

Don’t get me wrong, people said that God would reveal himself “On his terms” or “in a way (I) don’t suspect” , but then again how is this any different than saying, “You will come to accept the metaphore.”

I’m not critcizing. I didn’t hold out a whole lot of hope, but I did have a little. I was just a little surprised that I didn’t see anyone else on board with it.

 

[Everstruggling]

Oops, I forgot

Why do I think I would accept some sort of sign when I don’t accept Jesus? That God came to earth 2000 years ago, took human form, and we have an exact transcript of that event. Isn’t any less remote to me than the idea that God exists and loves me.

Is that really all that surprising?

According to the gospel of Luke, Thomas travelled all over the place with Jesus. He believed quite fervently. He was the apostle who said, “Let us go to Jeruselem and die with him.”

When the apostles were told that Jesus had risen from the grave, ten didn’t believe it at all, and only Peter went to go check. Then Jesus appeared to ten of them when Thomas wasn’t there, Thomas still didn’t believe it. (Which kind of makes me think that the other nine wouldn’t have either.) I mean all eleven that were still his followers doubted until they had some proof. Even John, the apostle Jesus loved. Jesus says throughout the gospels that most won’t believe. This was to the people who actually encountered him. That had first hand knowledge of his miracles.

My reaction is, quite frankly, normal. It’s certainly not out of line with what Jesus says to expect.

I’m sorry that I have no more faith than an apostle. (I’m sorry, that was facetious) I’d believe if he appeared. I’d believe if I could put my hand in his side.

Ever

 

[the_phoenix]

Dear Everstruggling,

Hail and Well Met!

I’ve been reading your thread for days, but have been utterly unable to post until now. Firstly, thank you for your thread. It’s been very helpful to me, but if I explain that right now it would take this thread off on a tangent. So instead I’ll do my best to help provide you the answers you deserve.

You say,

One thing I noticed seems to come up a lot is the idea that God is already as involved in my life as he ever is going to be.

It’s not necessarily so that God is already as involved in your life (from your perspective) as He is ever going to be. By that I mean, it’s possible that He indeed WILL show you more of Himself than he shows to someone else, possible that He indeed WILL grant you a greater awareness of His presence. Maybe you will see an actual miracle in your life … or maybe you won’t.

You say,

… it seems that everything that happens to me is attributable to God. Isn’t this just the same as saying that God is no more than a metaphore? That “seeing God” just means “being optimistic” or “looking on the bright side”?

God is the source of all that is good. That said, God is no pollyanna-ish cutesy fantasy. God is Real Love … and love, to be real, requires the one who loves to sacrifice for the one who is loved.

God hurts when we hurt … He hurts when people hurt each other, and when people hurt themselves. That’s why all the rules. When we live in thought, word, and deed in a right relationship with God and others whom we love as ourselves … and those who love God keep His commandments … that is the path to happiness.

You say,

The other thing I find weird is, was I the only one holding out any hope that God was actually going to show? I mean in a real, tangible, intelligible way? hurst seemed to consider it a possibility that I would get a wrathful response, and I Leatherman may have considered it, but it could also have been a joke. I thought that maybe one person would have said, “I’ll pray he does show up for you.” or even “Give it a bit of time and he will.”

Now here’s why I haven’t posted until now. In fact, I’ve already prayed for you, and based on the circumstances of the prayer, I feel STRONG hope for you! I haven’t posted about it because firstly, some people feel offended if you tell them you’ll pray for them. And secondly, … well, let me explain.

Earlier here on the forums, I promised someone that I would offer a Rosary for a special intention. (Canada, if you must know.) So I duly started saying the Rosary on behalf of the person requesting it. But right at the beginning of the prayer, I felt specially called to pray for you as well, which I take as being meaningful because I’m fussy about the Rosary in that I like to pray for only one intention at a time. I’d read your thread the night before and was very moved by it.

In any case, you are very special to God … He’s thinking about you and loves you. There’s definitely hope. Even if I hadn’t experienced the emotion of hope in prayer, there’s hope even in the words you post in this thread.

As for how I prayed for you, I simply prayed that God’s Will be done, trusting that He knows what’s best for you. Now that I know you would welcome people specifically praying that God shows up for you, be assured that I will do so.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Anne_G]

“My problem is when people tell me that God is loving, or that God is involved in my life”

The first thing I can tell you God did for you is (I am only assuming) put you in America? when you were born. You could have been in Africa or a war torn country. Have you got good family? Another blessing from God.

I’ve been through a lot over the years, a lot more than many people, sexual abuse as a teenager by two different people, loss of my Dad to suicide, my mother to cancer, a divorce, health problems and I’m only in my early 40’s. I always believed in God, not just because I was taught about him, but because it was just there in my heart. I did not follow him though, but I did pray for help and felt I never got it. It is only now that I do follow him that I can see that he did help me, not in the way I wanted but in the wisest way that he knew was best. He does love us, but as with human parents love includes chastisement, ie he lets something bad happen to you, more so you grow from it, rather than to punish you.
I was fortunate that God did reveal himself to me a few years ago, because my soul was in deep deep trouble, which turned me to God forever. I pray to him everyday to guide me in absolutely everything I do, and I sense him doing that, just in the way I feel in my heart with regards to my daily life.
One thing I feel God does like is to be continually thanked for what he has done for you, and he wants people to be humble, and acknowledge their failings and ask him to help you in those areas.

It says in the Bible “knock and the door shall be open”. It could be that he doesn’t show himself to you because you do doubt. The Bible also says “blessed are those who believe without seeing” (my quotes are just in my words not exactly how the Bible writes it). Reading the Bible every day and praying for Gods assistance to understand it also helps keep you close to God. On the odd occassion when I may miss a few days for what ever reason, I feel a little distant from God and immediately start reading it again.

I pray that you do find God’s presence in your life because it will change you as a person forever. It’s a wonderful and safe feeling knowing that he and Jesus are watching over you and guiding you.

 

[Everstruggling]

Hi,

I just realised when I posted this:

I thought that maybe one person would have said, “I’ll pray he does show up for you.”

I didn’t mean to belittle or ignore all of the kind prayers I was offered. I literally meant that specific prayer. If you did offer, and I just missed it, I truly apologise.
As Chris W wrote, there are many, many “hugs” here, and I appreciate them all. Even if I still disagree with peoples opinions.

the Pheonix, when you quoted this, it made me notice how what I said could be taken the wrong way. Thanks for your prayers. You have me very intrigued you know. One I’m dying to know why this thread helped you, and two, why you were praying for Canada. It’s none of my business, of course, I was just intrigued. It seems such an odd country to pray for. No wars going on there (at least not that I’m aware of).

 

[RobNY]

Everstruggling:

When the apostles were told that Jesus had risen from the grave, ten didn’t believe it at all, and only Peter went to go check. Then Jesus appeared to ten of them when Thomas wasn’t there, Thomas still didn’t believe it. (Which kind of makes me think that the other nine wouldn’t have either.) I mean all eleven that were still his followers doubted until they had some proof. Even John, the apostle Jesus loved. Jesus says throughout the gospels that most won’t believe. This was to the people who actually encountered him. That had first hand knowledge of his miracles.

And right after Jesus tells Thomas to touch him, he says (John 20:29):

29 18 Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

Jesus offers a beatitude to future Christians.

My reaction is, quite frankly, normal. It’s certainly not out of line with what Jesus says to expect.

I’m sorry that I have no more faith than an apostle. (I’m sorry, that was facetious) I’d believe if he appeared. I’d believe if I could put my hand in his side.

I think you’ve made a very interesting point, but here’s my train of thought.

The apostles didn’t really understand what Jesus was going on about. He more or less told them, but they still didn’t really get it. And quite frankly, until Jesus had risen and shown himself to be risen, believing is a very hard thing. But once Jesus rose and the apostles saw the proof, it became a whole different thing. We live in an age of post-resurrection Christ, and with the Gospels as the records of the witnesses of the resurrection.

It made sense for the apostles not to be sure until after Christ had risen, and for their knowledge to be less until he sent his Spirit into the world. But, afterwards, I think it’s a different situation. Doesn’t Paul say that if Christ is not resurrected that we believe in vain? That’s the one thing that our faith surely rests on, and I think it somewhat normal for the apostles to wait to see him risen. But we know he is risen.

I thought that maybe one person would have said, “I’ll pray he does show up for you.” or even “Give it a bit of time and he will.”

I’m sorry Ever. You’re absolutely right that we should pray. And if I remember, I will tonight. (I read this line over, and it sounds lame, I’m just very forgetful when I say I’ll pray for someone, and it makes me feel guilty. Do you have any particular saint or prayer that you have an affinity for?)

I think the reason most of us don’t expect God to do that is because from our frame of reference we don’t expect him to act the least in that way. We want you to find God, but we also don’t want to make you a promise that we can’t guarantee.

You’re looking for God to reveal himself, and I respect that, because the only way we can intimately know God is through his revelation. We are on such wildly different pages sometimes, I think, because Christians already think that God has revealed himself, both literally incarnating himself in time, Jesus being the fullest revelation of God on earth, and through Sacred Scripture.

We see God’s mode of revelation to be public, but public inasmuch as Jesus’ life, resurrection and death were public and recorded by the apostles. And then God acts on us individually in a more subtle way, through the grace of His Spirit.

So yes, in a sense, God did powerfully and overtly reveal himself to us. But we have to believe that he did powerfully and overtly reveal himself by believing in the accounts of Jesus’ apostles.

In love, hope, and faith,
Rob