Why I choose not to believe

[kev7]

Everstruggling:

Why am I pursuing this?

What do you do if you are dumped in a raft, out in the middle of the ocean? Hundreds of miles from any trace of land. No paddles, no compass, no way of knowing what way to go. Even if you guess right, even if you pick the most direct path, you will never make it. The tide is so much stronger than you are, there is no point in trying. What do you do?

What do I do? If I can’t beat the ocean, I pick a fight with the sky.

What you do exactly what peter did when he started to sink.

Peter walked on the water to be by jesus side he took his eyes off the lord and watched the rolling tide. he lost his faith in jesus and sinking down he shied, and then in a panic “Lord, save me,” peter cried.

Keep your feet on the word and your eyes on Jesus.

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

One thought…

Again it has come up that I’m the one who has to blink first as it were. That God won’t come to me unless I humble myself before him.

Interesting. Why?

If you do not humble yourself, you will exalt yourself. (Is there any in-between point?) If God came to you in that state, you would be punished, since He puts down the proud. So if you are not humble, then it is merciful that He does not come to you without first giving you some time to prepare. Don’t be caught off-guard: make proper use of the time.

1. We must be humble because He is holy

Psalms 98:9 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and adore at his holy mountain: for the Lord our God is holy.

Isaias 57:15 For thus saith the High and the Eminent that inhabiteth eternity: and his name is Holy, who dwelleth in the high and holy place, and with a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. …

1. He told us He prefers the humble in countless places of scripture

Luke 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.

James 4:6 … God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Psalms 33:19 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a contrite heart: and he will save the humble of spirit.

1. God hears the humble and comes to them that wait on Him

Ecclesiasticus 35:21 The prayer of him that humbleth himself, shall pierce the clouds: and till it come nigh he will not be comforted: and he will not depart till the most High behold.

1. Those who are humble welcome Him and are willing to exalt Him

Ecclesiasticus 43:33 Blessing the Lord, exalt him as much as you can: for he is above all praise. 34 When you exalt him put forth all your strength, and be not weary: for you can never go far enough.

1. After we humble ourselves and call upon God for help, and He hears us and helps us, we will then praise Him with joy.

Psalms 117:28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, and I will exalt thee. I will praise thee, because thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

Exodus 15:2 The Lord is my strength and my praise, and he is become salvation to me: he is my God and I will glorify him: the God of my father, and I will exalt him.

1 Samuel 2:1 My heart hath rejoiced in the Lord, and my horn is exalted in my God: my mouth is enlarged over my enemies: because I have joyed in thy salvation.

In your case, you decided to use strategem to get God’s attention, right? If it worked, then perhaps you would be able to brag that you got His attention according to your own device?

Deuteronomy 8:16 … And after he had afflicted and proved thee, at the last he had mercy on thee, 17 Lest thou shouldst say in thy heart: My own might, and the strength of my own hand have achieved all these things for me.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RobNY:

God doesn’t expect you to go to him. God always initiates.

I will put this statement in contrast with some others:

Deuteronomy 4:29 And when thou shalt seek there the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him: yet so, if thou seek him with all thy heart, and all the affliction of thy soul.

Ecclesiasticus 12:17 And if evils come upon thee, thou shalt find him there first.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek God, if happily they may feel after him or find him, although he be not far from every one of us:

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

Ecclesiasticus 17:7 He set his eye upon their hearts to shew them the greatness of his works: 8 That they might praise the name which he hath sanctified: and glory in his wondrous acts, that they might declare the glorious things of his works.

hurst

 

[RobNY]

Hurst: I think they’re good foils to what I said. Although God with his grace must initiate, we still have to search and respond. I suppose that’s what makes it a relationship?

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

We are talking about an entity that is all-knowing, all-loving, all-caring, and all-forgiving aren’t we?

He only forgives us if we forgive our neighbor.

Matthew 6:14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

Everstruggling:

But seriously, in the Bible, Jesus tells people to be demanding. He tells them “ask and it shall be given” If you don’t believe Jesus was right, then fine, tell me how I’m going to be punished, that is completely consistent.

We must ask with faith, believing we will receive (James)

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind. 7 Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

We must ask for salvation

Genesis 49:18 I will look for thy salvation, O Lord.

Luke 12:31 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Our punishment comes if we ask with bad faith, or tempt Him.

Matthew 4:6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Exodus 17:3 So the people were thirsty there for want of water, and murmured against Moses, saying: Why didst thou make us go forth out of Egypt, to kill us and our children, and our beasts with thirst? 4 And Moses cried to the Lord, saying: What shall I do to this people? Yet a little more and they will stone me. … 7 And he called the name of that place Temptation, because the chiding of the children of Israel, and for that they tempted the Lord, saying: Is the Lord amongst us or not?

Ps 94:9 As in the provocation, according to the day of temptation in the wilderness: where your fathers tempted me, they proved me, and saw my works. 10 Forty years long was I offended with that generation, and I said: These always err in heart.

Matthew 16:1 And there came to him the Pharisees and Sadduccees tempting: and they asked him to shew them a sign from heaven. 2 But he answered and said to them: … You know then how to discern the face of the sky: and can you not know the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. And he left them, and went away.

Everstruggling:

Is it just that I’m the dog, he’s the master, and he expects me to go to him? A little petty of him if it is.

I think He would expect you to act as you would wish the dog to act with you.

Malachias 1:6 The son honoureth the father, and the servant his master: if then I be a father, where is my honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of hosts. 7 To you, O priests, that despise my name, and have said: Wherein have we despised thy name? You offer polluted bread upon my altar, and you say: Wherein have we polluted thee? In that you say: The table of the Lord is contemptible. 8 If you offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and the sick, is it not evil? offer it to thy prince, if he will be pleased with it, or if he will regard thy face, saith the Lord of hosts.

We must consider if/how our actions are pleasing to God, too.

hurst

 

[StCsDavid]

Everstruggling:

Uhm, are you joking?

Well, apart from completely and totally changing my perception of the universe and my place in it; and other than the utter relief that could put aside the question that nagged at me ever since I first was able to ponder the idea; I am unable to add any specifics. After all, that would depend somewhat on what God was like, what image I had of him, it, her, or them. But I’m pretty sure it would have a somewhat life altering impact.

Well, my friend, you’re the one with the existential crisis.

Think of this. You’ll never be able to prove that God doesn’t exist. Oh, you can have your opinions and maybe even some very strong feelings. My experience is that folks who are really actively fighting against the belief in God are usually fighting facing the truth about something in themselves.

Here’s one other thing you probably won’t like. God won’t give up on you. He’s going to chase you until you catch Him. Where are you going to hide from Him? You can’t even hide in denial of Him! He’s still there. He’s got the better hand. You’re limited by the bounds of mere human intellect and logic. He has eternal knowledge.

Why are you here on this Earth? It’s not that hard. You’re here because God thought you up. Not only were you His idea, he loves you. He loved you so much He created you. And then He kicked it up notch and gave you the means for eternal life.

Finally, don’t expect God to pop up and tell you “I am.” Hard reality is you already know it.

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

… I don’t doubt that so many of you have felt the touch of God. But I can’t build my faith on the experience of others. It would be a false faith. I’ve been there, done that.

True. Don’t pretend you know something just because others do. But at the same time, don’t deny it is true just because you don’t have first-hand experience. But you can base your faith on the trust you have in the people you meet, conditionally.

Everstruggling:

…
What do you do if you are dumped in a raft, out in the middle of the ocean? Hundreds of miles from any trace of land. No paddles, no compass, no way of knowing what way to go. Even if you guess right, even if you pick the most direct path, you will never make it. The tide is so much stronger than you are, there is no point in trying. What do you do?

Pray? Entrust yourself to the Providence of God? Prepare to die in peace?

I am reminded of this verse:

Jonas 2:4 And thou hast cast me forth into the deep in the heart of the sea, and a flood hath compassed me: all thy billows, and thy waves have passed over me.

Everstruggling:

What do I do? If I can’t beat the ocean, I pick a fight with the sky.

What assumption in life have you made that makes you think you are supposed to be doing this? Normally, someone trying to beat something or someone is seeking a reward or prize. Who would give you a reward if you won? Or, would you exult to be ruler over it?

But let us humble ourselves and be pleasing to our Creator, being His servant.

Even Jonas humbled himself

Jonas 2:10 And the men were greatly afraid, and they said to him: Why hast thou done this? (for the men knew that he fled from the face of the Lord: because he had told them.) 11 And they said to him: What shall we do to thee, that the sea may be calm to us? for the sea flowed and swelled. 12 And he said to them: Take me up, and cast me into the sea, and the sea shall be calm to you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you. … 15 And they took Jonas, and cast him into the sea, and the sea ceased from raging.

Which seems to me to point to this one:

2 Paralipomenon 15:4 And when in their distress they shall return to the Lord the God of Israel, and shall seek him, they shall find him.

I find the following passages enlightening:

Wisdom 1:1 … Think of the Lord in goodness, and seek him in simplicity of heart. 2 For he is found by them that tempt him not: and he sheweth himself to them that have faith in him. 3 For perverse thoughts separate from God: and his power, when it is tried, reproveth the unwise: 4 For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.

1 Paralipomenon 28:9 … If thou seek him, thou shalt find him: but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Ecclesiastes 7:15 In the good day enjoy good things, and beware beforehand of the evil day: for God hath made both the one and the other, that man may not find against him any just complaint.

hurst

 

[Everstruggling]

StCsDavid:

Well, my friend, you’re the one with the existential crisis.

I was hoping you would post again. I was afraid my previous comments would seem to flippant, and you wouldn’t return.

Think of this. You’ll never be able to prove that God doesn’t exist.Oh, you can have your opinions and maybe even some very strong feelings.

I never claimed that God didn’t exist. I never set out to prove that he didn’t.

My claims were:

I have no proof that he has acted in my life.

If I am going to believe, I would like that proof.

The things that people have called proof, are not sufficient that I can believe.

God’s existence or non-existence is irrelevant to me in the absence of a tangible, recognisable experience.

My experience is that folks who are really actively fighting against the belief in God are usually fighting facing the truth about something in themselves.

Yes, I agree. I don’t think that anything I’ve said so far would suggest that this is merely an academic discussion on my part. If you look at some of my posts, I’m quite willing to admit the question has me troubled.

Here’s one other thing you probably won’t like.

Strange use of the word other. The only objections that I have to what you’ve written is to that you seem to be trying to convince me of things that I’ve already admitted.

God won’t give up on you. He’s going to chase you until you catch Him. Where are you going to hide from Him? You can’t even hide in denial of Him! He’s still there.

Where did you get the idea I was hiding? Going onto a public message board with a message like mine, inviting other people to comment on all aspects of my spiritual/anti-spiritual journey, and obliquely inviting others to pray that I might have some sort of experience of God doesn’t fit with my definition of hiding.

---

I’ve used words such as “yell”, “shout”, “fight”, and “pray” to describe what I’m trying to do, but “hide” confuses me.

 

[mattrue]

this is going back to the first question everstruggling wrote “why i choose not to believe”

if you do find it in your heart to pray… maybe you say “i dont know how to pray, what do i say?” pray to God “let your will be done” not mine but yours." its what Jesus said in the “Our Father.” this may open the floodgates and I hopefully pray that you may recognize someday that Jesus Christ is right next to you. As he said I will be with you untill the end of time. God Bless In Christ Matt

 

[Everstruggling]

hurst,

I really, really, admire your persistence. Have I mentioned that?
I swear that if I haven’t read the entire Bible already, I will have succeeded in doing it by the time you and I are finished posting.

hurst:

True. Don’t pretend you know something just because others do. But at the same time, don’t deny it is true just because you don’t have first-hand experience. But you can base your faith on the trust you have in the people you meet, conditionally.

Why? I’ve already told you that I spen a great long time believing. Years at a time. I didn’t start off not believing. It was my faith that brought to a state of non-faith to begin with.
I know that’s rather circular logic, but it seems true to me.

Normally, someone trying to beat something or someone is seeking a reward or prize. Who would give you a reward if you won? Or, would you exult to be ruler over it?
But let us humble ourselves and be pleasing to our Creator, being His servant.

You seem to have a fondness for quotes. Here’s the one that springs to mind, “To your own self be true.”
I would rather fight honestly, than humble myself just to fit in. You can quote the bible to me forever, but I’ve yet to have any experience that would tell me that God is either pleased or displeased by my attitude. My worship didn’t seem to be the slightest bit pleasing, and I find it impossible to put the whole God debate out of my head and ignore it. So, I’m holding out for some experience that He exists, and I refuse to play along until I get one.

You know, I’m really starting to wish I could just drop the idea.
To believe or be apathetic would both be fine at this point. The whole in-between thing just sucks.

 

[mattrue]

actually you already believe in him. you know of him. if you didnt think he existed you wouldnt talk about him at all. do you believe in heaven?

 

[Chris_W]

Hey Ever,

I hope you know that when we post, perhaps even seemingly rebutting something you’ve said, it is motivated by one purpose…to be of help…to try to give new perspective.

Okay, that being said, now I’ll comment on some things you’ve said:

Everstruggling:

You can quote the bible to me forever, but I’ve yet to have any experience that would tell me that God is either pleased or displeased by my attitude. My worship didn’t seem to be the slightest bit pleasing, and I find it impossible to put the whole God debate out of my head and ignore it. So, I’m holding out for some experience that He exists, and I refuse to play along until I get one.

Okay, so you’ve said God’s existence seems to be irrelevent. You’ve not experienced God. You don’t see the point. And you refuse to play along under the current conditions of your exitence.

But.

You have also said, the question is troubling to you, impossible to get out of your head or ignore it.

But.

You said you don’t know what it is you are deep down seeking in this pursuit.

One thing it seems we can identify that appears lacking in your life it is…

…Peace.

Wouldn’t it feel nice to just take a deep breath, exhale your thoughts and just be still in your mind and heart…relax…sleep comfortably and wake up refreshed? To contemplate the person you are, how you live your life, life after death, and just think “ya know…I’m doin’ alright…I’m far from perfect, but I’m doin’ alright…I know what I believe and I’m living by those beliefs.”.

There is only One source for true and lasting peace.

Is God really irrelevent in your life…even at this stage? You see no consequence or no potential benefit? What about Peace?

Is God really so distant that He does not touch your life in a real way that you can recognize? Have you considered the reason this issue is "impossible to get out of [your] head and ignore it? Do you have any other thoery (outside of God calling you) as to why this troubles you so?

Would God showing Himself to you in a miraculous way really change the situation you are in right now? In your heart you already seem to know He does exist. Why would a demonstration of what your heart already knows change anything (once the shock wore off)?

Do you really not know what you are seeking or have you hid that thing behind this intellectual pursuit? Is it possible your demand merly serves as a reason your intellect can use to give you permission not to lead the life you feel called to lead?

When you are trying to decide what if any changes to make in your life, I just want to ask “well, how’s** that** workin’ for ya?”

I’m just probing here, Ever, trying to say something that will snap your intellect out of defense lawyer mode and allow your heart to be of stronger guidance.

Good night,
Chris W

 

[hurst]

hurst:

Ecclesiasticus 12:17 And if evils come upon thee, thou shalt find him there first.

I should remark that this verse was out of context, but I was thinking of it in the following sense:

2 Paralipomenon 15:4 And when in their distress they shall return to the Lord the God of Israel, and shall seek him, they shall find him.

hurst

 

[StCsDavid]

Everstruggling:

I was hoping you would post again. I was afraid my previous comments would seem to flippant, and you wouldn’t return.

No, I’ve just been busy and haven’t had much keyboard time as of late.

I have no proof that he has acted in my life.
If I am going to believe, I would like that proof.
The things that people have called proof, are not sufficient that I can believe.

I would posit that our dialogue is one way that God is acting in your life. I am called to respond to you. I have no logical reason to do so. We’ll likely never meet. Whether you live, die, go to Heaven or wind up in Hell is completely beyond my human capacity to impact. If you convert, I gain nothing. Yet, I feel compelled to reach out to you on this matter. Why? It’s not ego. I don’t feel I’ll be rewarded if you suddenly believe God acts in your life. Your salvation is not my responsibility. I’m nothing to you, but a few sentences keyed into a forum on an Internet chat room. Still, I have to engage you on this. There’s something bigger than me or you at work here. I care. I shouldn’t, but I do. That love is evidence of God working in your life.

Everstruggling:

Where did you get the idea I was hiding? Going onto a public message board with a message like mine, inviting other people to comment on all aspects of my spiritual/anti-spiritual journey, and obliquely inviting others to pray that I might have some sort of experience of God doesn’t fit with my definition of hiding.

There is such a thing as hiding in plain sight. It’s a defensive mechanism. I see more rage against your inability to logically see God working in your life in your writing than anything else. I haven’t even touched on scripture, and frankly for this discussion, I won’t. My own knowledge (proof if you prefer) of God working in my own life isn’t found in sacred scripture. The Bible is just one way God talks to us. It’s a very important way and I by no means deminish its infinite value. However, His non-verbal communication is far more profound. That takes listening with the ears of your heart…not your head…seeing with the eyes of the soul…not the intellect. You can’t think your way out of this problem…but you can let it happen to you.

One more question I have for you…let’s say, again, God revealed Himself to you in a physical manifestation that you could believe…what would be the number one thing you ask His forgiveness for? You don’t have to answer me or post that in this forum, but give it some very careful thought.

 

[kev7]

Everstruggling:

I have no proof that he has acted in my life.

If I am going to believe, I would like that proof.

The things that people have called proof, are not sufficient that I can believe.

You cannot believe in something that you have proof of. That is like saying you can believe and have faith in the moon because you have proof (with your eyes) that it exists. No you can’t belive in something that is a fact.

In order to believe in God you must have faith not proof.

All you need for that is an open heart not an open mind.

I can honestly say that I am very happy that I cannot prove that God exists. If I knew for a fact that he did exist then I wouldn’t be able to make any true choices. I would always know for a fact that God was watching me and I would never have to the choice to come to him on my own terms.

We are all blessed to be blind from the truth because when God cures our blindness it is a miracle.

Imagine how happy we will be when the truth of God is known and we can feel his love forever. With proof of Gods existance this revelation and joy would not occur for us.

You are infact blessed because you can choose not to believe. If you had proof you would not be able to make that choice.

You would not be able to come to God on your own terms.

With the knowledge of Good and evil we must come to God on our terms and accept him.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Everstruggling, what your looking for is proof through the supernatural. your views are now athiestic so the first step would be to try and make yourself believe that there is a higher power out there. I did this by researching what are the chances it would take for this world to create itself out of nothing. when u see these astonishing numbers i believe it will spark somthing in your mind that will make u believe that there is a god. a man once said atheism was stupid, and he wasnt just an ordinary man, he was arguably the greatest scientist in the world, sir isaac newton. remember if theres a chance that jesus is real, it says if u dont believe in him then u will burn FOREVER. think about how long forever is, u only live a measly little 100 yrs on earth.

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

…
“To your own self be true.”
I would rather fight honestly, than humble myself just to fit in.

To even use this forum, we have to humble ourselves to fit in, since the posts are moderated. So for the sake of sharing in this forum community, you have been willing to do that. So how hard could it be for you to humble yourself before God in the same way?

You say how could it be hard for God to meet your demands, but He also has demands, and I remind you that He could point out the same thing to you about ability to meet demands. And who deserves to be heeded first? Also, He could point out that He has already shown His power first, by creating us, and that the evidence is all around you.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

So now, it is your turn. What is the objection to being humble?

Perhaps one issue is that you are confused about what true humility is, or how to be humble.

The proper way to fit in is to be converted.

Isaias 45:22 Be converted to me, and you shall be saved, all ye ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is no other.

Ezechiel 18:30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.

We should try to fit in with the heavenly citizens, and be converted from the iniquity in our hearts. The iniquity in our hearts - do you know what that is? Have you considered what it might be?

It is not until we depart from iniquity in our hearts that we will truly be able to humble ourselves before God. Both of these are tied to the fear of the Lord, to believing in His Justice, that He will punish our wickedness, that He will punish those who have been wicked to us, that He will reward those who have done rightly in His sight - from our hearts. A rotten tree cannot bear good fruit. We must be healed from within for any of our exterior actions to be genuine.

It is a matter of fitting in with God and the calling He has on our life, which is to be holy and part of His Kingdom.

Micheas 6:8 I will shew thee, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requireth of thee: Verily, to do judgment, and to love mercy, and to walk solicitous with thy God.

Genesis 17:1 And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect.

Again, it starts with the thoughts and attitudes in our hearts. It requires prayer to deal with ourselves on this level. We have to ask God to convert us.

You prefer to fight honestly. That reminds me of the fact that we are called to overcome.

1 John 2:13 … I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.

Apocalypse 21:7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things, and I will be his God; and he shall be my son.

But I suppose your answer is that you refuse to fight for God’s benefit until He shows Himself to you…

I am reminded of the following passage

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

If your prayers are resulting in curses, and you admit you are in the red morally speaking, and you are calling for God’s action in your life, then I can hope that you are trying to come into the light, and are crying out for help. But let me suggest that you will need more than just personal knowledge of God’s existence. You need His healing. And you can obtain that because there are some genuine Catholic healing and deliverance ministries that I know of where God is doing miracle after miracle in people’s lives, both physically and spiritually - mostly spiritually. But it will be through one of God’s ministers. Still, through them, you may receive the needed experience and healing that you long and crave for. But you must be willing to humble yourself before them. As for the prayers turning into curses, that is a strong indication of a generational curse (which I stated before). And you must go to confession - or at least try to make a perfect act of contrition in your heart.

Leviticus 26:40 Until they confess their iniquities and the iniquities of their ancestors, whereby they have transgressed me, and walked contrary unto me.

You can obtain healing from these also.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Everstruggling:

You can quote the bible to me forever, but I’ve yet to have any experience that would tell me that God is either pleased or displeased by my attitude.

The fact is, I’ve shared with you enough information for you to know that God is pleased with anyone who is humble, and that he is displeased and punishes the proud who oppose Him. So you have had an experience that told you whether God is pleased or displeased by your attitude. I realize it is not a supernatural and special experience direct from God; it seems like an everyday kind of thing… But if you prayed for God to save you from flooding, would you refuse help from a helicopter hovering over your house, because it is not God?

How you interact naturally with others is how you will act with God! God does not destroy our nature.

Matthew 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

If He gives you grace, it will not somehow force you to be good. It will elevate your nature and give infinite value to what you naturally do. But if you refuse to do these things on the natural level, then you will not suddenly do them on the higher level.

John 3:12 If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not; how will you believe, if I shall speak to you heavenly things?

And you are refusing to do justice to God on the simple natural level. Thus, your experience will be terrifying. I advise you to practice natural virtue while you can, and not bury your talent for spite of the Master.

Matthew 25:14 For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey… 18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. … 24 But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25 And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine. 26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those with grace, shall abound with the merit of good works and the honor thereof. But those without grace, even the honor they seem to have from natural good works will be taken away.

Everstruggling:

… So, I’m holding out for some experience that He exists, and I refuse to play along until I get one.

That is your free choice. I advise you to reinvestigate your motives. To please God, you must be in His grace. If you are not in His grace and favor, then anything you do will displease Him. The only prayer He will not spurn is one that comes from a contrite heart. But you refuse to humble yourself, so your offense remains. With your disposition, how can you benefit even if He did send you the grace you demand? Instead, He lovingly sends you preparatory graces to lead you to a happy meeting with Him. It appears that you are responding somewhat, otherwise you would not continue to discuss these things with us. So perhaps this can be like a trickle of interest that would prove you are indeed cooperating with God’s grace to some extent, and render you worthy of more grace. I think there is room to hope here, though it may take some time.

hurst

 

[Philomena]

“Praying God will knock me off my stinkin horse…Be careful what you ask for… God bless you.”

I just found that so confusing I had to quote it twice. You are praying that God punish and bless me in 50 words or less.

I just don’t have a response to that.

Ever, I assumed you knew what I meant. It wasn’t meant as a curse. I was referring to the story of St Paul, who persecuted Christians, then was 'knocked off his horse" as a result of his conversion. I am simply praying that God reveal himself to you in such a powerful, obvious way, like St Paul. That’s all.

You said that you expected us to offer prayers for you, but no one said so. I think it is a given that we are…sorry for what you may have taken as a cybersmite

God Bless You. I am on my way to Mass. I will offer my communion for you and your struggles.

 

[adnauseum]

Everstruggling:

What do you do if you are dumped in a raft, out in the middle of the ocean? Hundreds of miles from any trace of land. No paddles, no compass, no way of knowing what way to go.

You cling to driftwood - shaped in the form of a cross. And you don’t let go.

It’s a perfect image. Just you and the cross on a great sea of being, completely one with nature, terrified for sure, but strangely at peace.