Why I could never follow Luther.

[benedictus2]

Hi, Benedictus2,

Nice to have you on this thread. Great post!

God bless

Hi Tom,

Thanks. Great to be back. Someone said I am a ‘serial poster’.

Good to see you still active here.

Peace and Joy of Christ!

 

[vulcano37214]

Hi, Vuclano,

What an interesting set of questions. Let me try my hand at answering them…

And they were here an even longer time than any of the proponents of the Reformation. By the way, what does longevity have to do with anything? Do you want to join the Jewish faith because they were here longer? The whole of idea of the NEW Covenant is that Christ completed everything that was necessary - and guess what, the Pharsiees are not needed in this New Creation of the Church (and that would be the Catholic Church) by Christ.

Strictly as a matter of information and correct usage, proper nouns are capitalized. The way you wrote Roman Catholic Church could be considered as insulting. I am sure you did not mean it that way.

God bless

Romans 4:1-5
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather (A)according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but (B)not before God.

3For what does the Scripture say? “(C)ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

4Now to the one who (D)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but (E)believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[gracelife]

Benedictus2, how does one become a member of the Body of Christ?

Fully Christian???
Can somone be half-full or a part Christian. That’s kinda like saying someone is just a little pregnant. Someone is or is not.

Is it our doing that makes us Christian or God’s doing?

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2, how does one become a member of the Body of Christ?

How about you tell me how?

Fully Christian???
Can someone be half-full or a part Christian. That’s kinda like saying someone is just a little pregnant. Someone is or is not.

This comparison is terribly flawed. One is a physical state (you are right one is either pregnant or one is not). The other is a spiritual state (you can have one foot in and one foot out).

One can follow only some of Christ’s teaching, or one can follow all of Christ’s teaching.

Let me give you an example: Many people claim to be Christians but they follow Eastern religious practices as well which do not quite jell with Christian precepts.

Many people call themselves Christian but advocate abortion.

So yes, with regards being Christian - one can be half “pregnant”.

What defines a true Christian is whether one follows Christ’s will, no ifs or buts.The Lutheran way has ifs and buts.

Now if you say that if you only follow part of Christ’s will then you cannot be called Christian (since there are no half measures according to you) then Lutherans are not Christians.

So maybe you should re-think your analogy.

Is it our doing that makes us Christian or God’s doing?

What incorporates us is into the Body of Christ is God’s doing but with our cooperation. God will not force you against your will to be Christian. You have to say yes. It is our choice whether we remain so and to what extent we follow Christ’s will. When we follow His will selectively, then it means we follow our own will – the primacy of the self. We pay lip service to Christ but it is till our will that reigns.

 

[benedictus2]

Romans 4:1-5
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather (A)according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but (B)not before God.

3For what does the Scripture say? “(C)ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

4Now to the one who (D)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but (E)believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

How does quoting all these verses answer what Tom Qualey wrote?

 

[benedictus2]

I think there’s a reason God has allowed all these different schools of thought to form within Christianity. We balance each other out - often helping each other to avoid extremes.

Hmmm, a relativist.

How can sticking to the will of Christ be called 'extreme"?
If this is so then thank God the Catholic Church is “extreme”.

That is, we do this when we communicate respectfully. If we’re just trying to prove why the other person is wrong, we’re not doing anything but widening the divide between denominations.

What is wrong in proving that the other belief is wrong if it is wrong?

Should we not aim to prove that a belief is wrong if it is so?

Example: Should we say to a murderer, no that is okay if you think it is okay?

And, oh yeah, we’re shaming the name of Christ. “By this the world will know you are My disciples, if you love one another.”

And how showing that someone’s belief is not in accord with what Christ willed be “not loving one another”. Is it loving to leave someone in ignorance?

I’m a hardcore Lutheran. I love it. But if someone else really feels they can’t be Lutheran, that is totally fine with me. I don’t even care what the reasons are. If you confess the Creed, if you live it with your life, we don’t really have anything worth arguing about.

Well it seems that to our Lord it does matter or else He would not have established only 1 Church.

 

[gracelife]

benedictus2:

The question is can a person be said to be fully Christian without following the fullness of Christ’s will?

YES YES YES!
We do this every day. We sin. Even in the little things. In sin we are out of Christ’s will, still we are fully Christian. That’s the beauty of it!
Sin is ugly, yes. But God’s mercy is beautiful!

With contrition and faith we rest in forgiveness through Christ’s death and resurrection.

God forgives; for Jesus sake, so that his death is not in vain.
Otherwise, what is the point of the cross?

Still we are Christians. We are Christians by virtue of our baptism and faith. Both of which are gifts of God, not our own doing.

What incorporates us is into the Body of Christ is God’s doing but with our cooperation.

How does an infant cooperate in his own baptism?

In faith we remain Christians. Where does faith come from?
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Benedictus2, how does one become a member of the Body of Christ?

Fully Christian???
Can somone be half-full or a part Christian. That’s kinda like saying someone is just a little pregnant. Someone is or is not.

Is it our doing that makes us Christian or God’s doing?

I would suggest looking up what Pope Benedict had to say about there is only one Church. That would better answer your Question.

 

[vulcano37214]

How does quoting all these verses answer what Tom Qualey wrote?

He wrote.
" But, where in the Scriptures does it say that the Scriptures contain everything we need for salvation? And, please 2Tim 3:16 does not say this…! "

I just gave him one verse of many.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Gracelife,

I will quickly put my two cents in before Benedictus2 comes in … But, your view of the Catholic Church is really quite different from the reality of the Catholic Church. Let me explain.

Ooops, unintended can of worms!!!

Agreed, the historical significance of the RCC cannot be denied. That was not my contention; it’s a given. By God’s grace, He preserved His Gospel despite sinful man.

Let me clarify what I meant.
A person can be a Christian without being a member of the Roman Catholic Church, but not a Christian without Christ.

Amen, amen. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

We sound like the Corinthians (chapter 1)…

What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Benedict”, or “I follow Luther,” or “I follow Peter,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Benedict crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Luther? … but we preach Christ crucified…And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption… [considering 1 Corinthians Chapters 1 and 2]

The big difference here, as you paraphrase Paul’s Epistle, is that all of these men were in fact preaching Christ crucified - but, these guys in Corinth were so hung-up on personalities and image and other physical trappings that they lost sight of the reality that had been given to them. And, that reality is that Christ came to earth as an infant, founded His Church on Peter, suffered, died and was burried and then rose from the dead for our salvation, promised the Holy Spirit who came on the First Pentecost - the birthday of the Catholic Church, and has been with the Catholic Church ever since. And I know this because the Church has never taught error.
Not because the Catholic Church is composed of ‘sinless’ men.

Contrast this with Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Wesley, etc - all of them were preaching THEIR vision of Christ and claiming this is what Christ wanted. This implies that for at least 1,500 years Christ had gotten it wrong by selecting Peter to lead the Church, that the teaching of the Church were in error (e.g., seven sacraments, not two) and that this entire mass of people who believed what Christ had said were obviously confused and now were free thanks to the personal interpretations of the ‘Reformers’. God knows what happened to those other confused people who for 1,500 years lived and died and believed what Christ said through His Church!

So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. 1 Corinthian 3:21-22

Not to put too fine a point on it, Gracelife, but, how much more boastful can you get than saying, "I know more than all the others who came before me, and I will establish my view of religion as the correct view and all others - especially the one I came from - are false teachings?

My “poke” then is that Catholic apologetics so easily takes it’s focus off of Christ and puts it on other things … the Church, etc.

Christ’s focus, Gracelife, is His Bride - the Catholic Church… you know, the one He founded on Peter. To focus on Christ is to focus on His Church and to focus on His Church is to focus on Christ - the two are joined… forever! Unfortunately, there have been some who have tried to tear this bond asunder.

Lutheranism…striving to keep the main thing the main thing; Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do not question your sincerity, Gracelife, when you tell us about the goal of the Lutheran Church. But, do not go along with the inventions of others when describing the goal of the Catholic Church. The one developed by the ‘Reformers’ totally missed the point. The challenge before all is not to confuse the use of something with its abuse. Again, I ask you to look at the example set by St. Catherine of Siena - see how she addressed the evils in the Catholic Church at the time and see the good that she brought about in her cooperation with the Grace of God.

This is the focus - a Catholic Church faithfully fulfilling her role as Bride of Christ.

God bless

 

[gracelife]

I would suggest looking up what Pope Benedict had to say about there is only one Church. That would better answer your Question.

Yet God’s Word is clear. The CCC says the same regarding membership in the Body of Christ.

12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.** 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body**— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 ESV

Through our baptism we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ cannot be separated from His church. Thus, the baptized are members of Christ’s church; regardless of their affilation or lack thereof with the RCC.

 

[gracelife]

Hi, Gracelife,

I will quickly put my two cents in before Benedictus2 comes in … But, your view of the Catholic Church is really quite different from the reality of the Catholic Church. Let me explain.

What do you understand my view to be?

But, do not go along with the inventions of others when describing the goal of the Catholic Church. The one developed by the ‘Reformers’ totally missed the point.

What do you mean by inventions of others when describing the goal of the Catholic church?

What then do you say the point is, if it is not Christ crucified?

The challenge before all is not to confuse the use of something with its abuse.
Who is confusing the use of something with its abuse, I’m not following. Abuse of what? I do recognize there are sinful men within Christ’s church and despite that the Christian faith continues.

Again, I ask you to look at the example set by St. Catherine of Siena - see how she addressed the evils in the Catholic Church at the time and see the good that she brought about in her cooperation with the Grace of God.
She indeed was a humble servant.

This is the focus - a Catholic Church faithfully fulfilling her role as Bride of Christ.
As my focus would be sinful mans need of the Gospel; Christ crucified.

God bless
You too!

I agree. Much work is needed throughout Christendom. There are varying degrees of orthodoxy (some things folks got right, other things not so much).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Vulcano,

Actually, you did not answer anything. I really think this involves comprehension not just reading. I specifically told you this quote did not fit. Maybe it is you do not understand why it doesn’;t fit. Let me help…

He wrote.
" But, where in the Scriptures does it say that the Scriptures contain everything we need for salvation? And, please 2Tim 3:16 does not say this…! "

I just gave him one verse of many.

Let’s take a look at the verse and see what it says - and doesn’t say!

All scripture is inspired by God (yes, it is inspired - or God breathed words)

and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(of course it is useful - God would not be giving us anything useless! And, how can it be used? Well, Paul gives us four items that he wants us to take to heart: teaching is first, refuting error, correcting those that stray from the path to Christ and finally for training others. That is what is says. Now, it does not say it ALL YOU NEED. If you will note Matt 16:18 - Christ established His Church on Peter, promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail, that the Holy Spirit would guide it and sends the Holy Spirit on that First Pentecost - the birthday of the Catholic Church. )

so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
(we have established that we belong to God and that we need to know what God expects of us - and that is following Christ in the manner He designated. Following Christ is done by cooperating with the Grace of God and He will equip us to do His Will.

Note that at the time Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy was in about 63-64AD. John would not write Revelations until about the 100AD. This means that the only complete document Paul could have been referring to was the Old Testament. The earliest writing was that of James which was completed before 58AD So, it really is unclear if Paul knew of the other writings or that they would form what we call the New Testament.

Paul’s words are accurate as far as they go - but, the take home message is that at no time in his letter to Timothy (or to any other person) does Paul say that you only need Scripture. And, it would be almost another 300 years after John wrote the last book in New Testament before the Catholic Church would canonize the writings that we identified as inspired.

Luther took it on his own (he never claimed to be inspired by God, and there is no report about God appearing to Luther and telling him that He changed His Mind and Peter’s Successors were no longer in charge of Christ’s Church) to ultimately make his own church.

One of the most intriguing aspects of the ‘Reformation’ era is that there was about 1.500 years of history beginning with the death of the Apostle John until Luther nailed his 95 Thesis to the church door. This history can not simply be ignored - and to pick up in the 16th Century as though Jesus just left the earth. Ignoring history is folly.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Gracelife,

We need to really clear about this - for eternity is more than just a very long time!

Yet God’s Word is clear. The CCC says the same regarding membership in the Body of Christ.

12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.** 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body**— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 ESV

Through our baptism we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ cannot be separated from His church. Thus, the baptized are members of Christ’s church; regardless of their affilation or lack thereof with the RCC.

Ultimately, it goes down like this: if you sincerely believe that what you are doing is what God wants you to be doing - and that you are in the Church founded by Christ to lead me to salvation - then great! Fail in any of these aspects, and you are on your own. And, that is the name of that tune!

May I suggest you look at this site: catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp for a much clearer and referenced explanation.

As best as I can tell you, Luther ultimately threw out the Baby with the bath water. The bath water was indeed dirty - but his response was to form his won church. This effectively lead others (e.g., Calvin, Henry VIII, Wesley, etc.) to follow him in leaving the Church founded by Christ on Peter. Now, as I see it, this is strictly a matter of history - involving no faith at all - but, the message of Christ did not originate in the 16th Century. And, if it didn’t … then I suggest to look at where it did originate.

God bless

 

[Janet1983]

I would suggest looking up what Pope Benedict had to say about there is only one Church. That would better answer your Question.

Well what does he say?
One is either a Christian or one is not a Christian… there is no in-between…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Janet1983,

Actually, Janet, there are soooooooooo many shades (about 20,000+) come immediately to mind - that must be considered. In reality, there are also ‘Cafeteria Catholics’ and they are all over the place… don’t know the number… but, they exist.

So, in response to you statement, this is not like a light switch - either ‘On’ or ‘Off’. You go from those who simply claim to be ‘Christian’ …to those that believe some but not all that the Catholic Church teaches… to those who add doctrines (e.g., Solo Scriptura, Altar Calls, etc.) and all kinds of varieties into between sub groups.

While the Bureau of Census may get away with asking people what religion they are and accepting ‘Christian’ written in the little box - it really is more complex than this. What I have said is just a mere description of reality - not the outcome of Chrit’s prayer for unity.

God bless

Well what does he say?
One is either a Christian or one is not a Christian… there is no in-between…

 

[benedictus2]

YES YES YES!
We do this every day. We sin. Even in the little things. In sin we are out of Christ’s will, still we are fully Christian. That’s the beauty of it!
Sin is ugly, yes. But God’s mercy is beautiful!

Excellent answer. Christians are sinners.

But… you can say that Christians who follow Christ’s will more closely is more fully Christian. A “Christian” who says “Jesus is Lord” and proceeds to break every single commandment can hardly be called fully Christian because he is not really “following” Christ.

And here is another problem with your answer. Following your line of reasoning, you are in effect saying that Lutheran’s are in a perpetual state of sin because they are in constant defiance Christ’s will as regards His Church. And the major problem is that they cannot even repent of it. So perhaps you need to rethink that one.

You can liken this to someone saying, yes to 8 of the 10 commandments but insisting that the other two are dispensable.

And here’s another thing about Christians being sinners; when say someone commits adultery knowing that adultery is wrong and tries hard not to do it again, you can say that that is a Christian who is sinning and God’s forgiveness is available when he repents.

But what can one say about someone who says “Lord you may be right about murder but adultery? I can’t accept that.” This second scenario is what it is like to say I follow some of Jesus’s teachings but I will not follow His Church. Hmm, that sounds very much like following Christ on one’s own terms… really like declaring that " I am Lord, not Jesus Christ."

With contrition and faith we rest in forgiveness through Christ’s death and resurrection. God forgives; for Jesus sake, so that his death is not in vain.
Otherwise, what is the point of the cross?

Well how can God forgive one of a sin that one is not repentant of? Are you sorry for not following Jesus’s will as regards His Church? Well, if you are, that is easily remedied. So have you taken the steps towards putting that right? That one insists on having opne’s own way means that one is not one bit sorry as regards this particular disobedience to His will. So where does that leave one with regards His forgiveness.

Still we are Christians. We are Christians by virtue of our baptism and faith. Both of which are gifts of God, not our own doing.

Agree to an extent. But as it is said, to be a real Christian is to respond to this grace. Like Mary, we have to say yes. And our yes is evident in our actions.

How does an infant cooperate in his own baptism?

I think I need to re-phrase. We get incorporated into the Body of Christ by God but how we remain there needs our cooperation.
The infant is baptized through God’s grace but whether he remains faithful to that depends on him as well. This is the way that God willed it. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said “Come follow me”. He would simply died on the cross, rose again end of story. No need for the apostles and everything else.

In faith we remain Christians. Where does faith come from?
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10

That is true. Faith comes from hearing. But what has that got to do with what we are discussing here? We are not discussing here evangelization.

 

[benedictus2]

He wrote.
"** But, where in the Scriptures does it say that the Scriptures contain everything we need for salvation? And, please 2Tim 3:16 does not say this…! "

I just gave him one verse of man y**.

These are the verses you quoted:

vulcano37214:

Romans 4:1-5
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather (A)according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but (B)not before God.

3For what does the Scripture say? “(C)ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

4Now to the one who (D)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but (E)believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Where in these verses does it say that “Scripture contains everything we need for salvation”?

 

[benedictus2]

Yet God’s Word is clear. The CCC says the same regarding membership in the Body of Christ.

12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.** 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body**— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 ESV

Through our baptism we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ cannot be separated from His church. Thus, the baptized are members of Christ’s church; regardless of their affilation or lack thereof with the RCC.

Did Christ establish many Churches or just one?

 

[benedictus2]

Well what does he say?
One is either a Christian or one is not a Christian… there is no in-between…

First you have to define what a Christian is. You might find out to your chagrin that you actually don’t qualify if you put it that black and white …

Mother Theresa is a Christian and I consider myself to be one as well. But between her and me, she is much more fully a Christian than I ever could be because she truly followed the Lord.

Being Christian does not consist in merely saying that Jesus is Lord. You have to embody in your life that statement : that Jesus is indeed Lord.

And if Jesus is Lord - then I will follow His will - including the one regarding His Church.