Why I could never follow Luther.

[JonNC]

I think JPII has admitted that both sides were to blame. JPII has stressed the first step to reconciliation is holiness. Catholics must lead holy lives. .

Indeed, and so does the Catholic Catechism:
817*…But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.*

We are most to blame when we disfigure the face of Christ

I would dispute the claim that Catholics hold greater blame than the Reformers, or their descendents.

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

Methinks the words “imperfect communion” or “imperfect union” address a numbe of points here.

I bristle at the notion, not that anyone here has made it but it certainly crops up on the CAF from time to time, that those who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not “in Christ”. Might as well say that these folks are not Christians, which for most if not all, is hogwash.

Gotta wonder about the WBC and other such people who call themselves Christians…I’d call their theology very questionable at best, but only the Almighty can tell if they’re “True Christians” or not.

 

[JonNC]

Methinks the words “imperfect communion” or “imperfect union” address a numbe of points here.

I bristle at the notion, not that anyone here has made it but it certainly crops up on the CAF from time to time, that those who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not “in Christ”. Might as well say that these folks are not Christians, which for most if not all, is hogwash.

And I bristle at the claim that those who* are *in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not Christian, which comes up at places like CARM occasionally. It, too, is hogwash.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

And I bristle at the claim that those who* are *in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not Christian, which comes up at places like CARM occasionally. It, too, is hogwash.

Jon

I agree. Anyone who is Christian is in communion with Christ I believe that.

But I do believe that you are not in full communion with Christ outside of the CC simply because IMHO you cannot be fully united with him without all of the Sacraments.

 

[JonNC]

I agree. Anyone who is Christian is in communion with Christ I believe that.

But I do believe that you are not in full communion with Christ outside of the CC simply because IMHO you cannot be fully united with him without all of the Sacraments.

Hi rinnie, while I disagree about the sacraments in terms of your implication that we don’t have them, I have to ask, then, is it being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, or simply being in apostolic succession that determines " full communion with Christ"?

Jon

 

[rinnie]

.
Not sure what you mean, rinnie, Luther came AFTER the Church, but every Lutheran would agree that the Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

We would dispute that he separated himself from Christ’s Church, but if we were to accept your contention, we would say he certainly had help from Rome.

We would dispute that he walked away, rather he was pushed, but were we to accept your contention, would you say the same about Orthodoxy?

Should I accept this as a claim that any Christian not in communion with the Bishop of Rome have walked away from Christ?

So did Luther.

We all become one with Christ and part of His Church through Baptism. No?

This is not the case.

This is a good question,considering the schism.

With the exception of the implication that those not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not with Christ, no offense taken, rinnie. I have never found you to be intentionall disrespectful.

Jon

Sorry Jon, never meant to imply that at all. Thanks for giving me the benefit of doubt. You are always very kind.

But my point is Luther left the Church or like it was stated was tossed out for many reasons. But I guess what my point is Luther kind of blamed God for what the Priests that fell from grace did. Do you see what I am saying?

Like today it still happens. Like with the bad things that happend in the RCC today. No one denys them, no one defends it. But it does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is still the RCC.

But how many People will, and have left the RCC for what the Priests that fell from Grace did? Its kind of like history repeating itself sometimes.

But the facts still remain. Jesus warned us that the devil is the master of disquise and will dress in his clothing. But he always promised us that the devil would never take down the Church and never has.

But he also warned us that with the scandel many will turn away from their faith. Thats what I am getting at. No matter what anyone in the Church could do, I still could never turn away from Jesus and his Church.

But here is my point. Okay lets go with Luther being tossed out. He could have repented and become back into full communion with Christ in the RCC again. But he choose not to. He put the blame on Christ the Church for the leaders who fell from grace.

What I am saying is 2 wrongs did not make a right. And look at the example he led when he left. I mean while I will never defend evil, Luther could be a pot meet kettle, you see what I mean.

But what if he would have done things differently. What if he would have found a way to rid the sin in the Church instead of condemning it and then turning around and being just as bad as the people he accused or maybe even worse.

He had so much Grace given to him from God when he was in the Church, but he also fell from Grace just like the Priests he exposed.

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie, while I disagree about the sacraments in terms of your implication that we don’t have them, I have to ask, then, is it being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, or simply being in apostolic succession that determines " full communion with Christ"?

Jon

No thats not what I mean at all. In order for us to be in full communion with Christ in his Church, we have to be in full communion with eachother to have the Church once again the ONE HCAC.

But I do believe that you have to be in apostolic succession to have full communion with Christ, that I believe for sure. But we also have to have full communion with eachother now to become ONE.

What I am saying is I wish People could see that the SINS of Man have nothing to do with the Church. There is still ONE CHURCH. If One Man Luther to turn many away, why can’t One Man today bring us back together.

Why can’t People see that there is always going to be Humans in the RCC and any Church for that fact are going to try to bring us down. And instead of saying I could never be Catholic because of what the Pope did or this Priest or that Bishop today or a thousand years ago, see the big picture. That we are letting them turn us away from the True Church of God.

Then if we became ONE in Christ again, we could be back the way it started.

Like Jon how many in your Church are also like Luther, a Pastor sins, and they will actually leave their faith. I know many don’t but do you see my point. How many Do??

 

[KathleenGee]

After coming home from overseas working with Latin Catholics, I went through a bit of culture shock back home in the Church.

I told my Welsh Irish grandmother I am not this American Catholic, but Roman Catholic and wanted to leave…I was young…and she told me to not look at the priests but keep my eyes on God and the Sacraments, that she had to with the changes going on in regards to Vatican II.

I wondered what would happen if I did leave…I don’t think I would stay in any church…either I am Catholic or nothing.

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;7192784]Sorry Jon, never meant to imply that at all. Thanks for giving me the benefit of doubt. You are always very kind.

Well, it is easy to give the benefit of the doubt, based on your reputation here.

But my point is Luther left the Church or like it was stated was tossed out for many reasons. But I guess what my point is Luther kind of blamed God for what the Priests that fell from grace did. Do you see what I am saying?

I see no evidence that he blamed God. I think he blamed the hierachy of the Church. And, no, I don’t view it as the same thing, nor do I believe it carries over to subsequent leaders of the CC, which is why I in honesty cannot, will not claim the current papacy is anti-Christ, as the confessions claimed regarding the papacy of that time.

Like today it still happens. Like with the bad things that happend in the RCC today. No one denys them, no one defends it. But it does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is still the RCC.

Agreed. Though Christ’s Church includes the institution of the CC, I believe it is more than just those in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

But the facts still remain. Jesus warned us that the devil is the master of disquise and will dress in his clothing. But he always promised us that the devil would never take down the Church and never has.

And the evidence of this is the Church Triumphant.

But he also warned us that with the scandel many will turn away from their faith. Thats what I am getting at. No matter what anyone in the Church could do, I still could never turn away from Jesus and his Church.

Me, neither, rinnie.

But here is my point. Okay lets go with Luther being tossed out. He could have repented and become back into full communion with Christ in the RCC again. But he choose not to. He put the blame on Christ the Church for the leaders who fell from grace.

He was given the chance to recant, but was required to recant of even the things he was later absolved of. Again, I dispute the idea that he couldn’t distinguish between the Church and those who sinned.

What I am saying is 2 wrongs did not make a right. And look at the example he led when he left. I mean while I will never defend evil, Luther could be a pot meet kettle, you see what I mean.

Yes, and I agree. As the CCC says, there was blame enough to go around. I would never dispute that there was sin on both sides.

But what if he would have done things differently. What if he would have found a way to rid the sin in the Church instead of condemning it and then turning around and being just as bad as the people he accused or maybe even worse.

What if both sides had met with the intent of reconciling? We have to view the events in the atmosphere in which they occurred, which was nothing like what we are experiencing today post Vatican II.

He had so much Grace given to him from God when he was in the Church, but he also fell from Grace just like the Priests he exposed.

We don’t know that either Pope Leo X or Luther fell from Grace. Sinned, yes, but the confessions of either has not been revealed, nor should they be.

Jon

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Newbie2, you are quite correct about my list not being exhaustive. I did not plan on writing the life of Luther. There have been so many who have already done that better than I could ever hope to. My idea was to suggest that Catholics walk a mile in Luther’s shoes. And watch out for thunderstorms. ( 500 years and Lutherans still tell the same old jokes)

Going back to the name of the thread, we Lutherans do not follow Luther, though we are influenced by his thought. We do just like Catholics and follow Christ.

 

[The_Sentry]

Newbie2, you are quite correct about my list not being exhaustive. I did not plan on writing the life of Luther. There have been so many who have already done that better than I could ever hope to. My idea was to suggest that Catholics walk a mile in Luther’s shoes. **And watch out for thunderstorms. ** ( 500 years and Lutherans still tell the same old jokes)

Going back to the name of the thread, we Lutherans do not follow Luther, though we are influenced by his thought. We do just like Catholics and follow Christ.

Very good! That one brought a smile haha

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

For what it is worth here is my take on Luther and the whole sorted mess of the reformation.

Luther was right, as any of us would be in pointing and bring to light abuses in the church. there were many men seeking power that I believe gave him very bad advise and used him as a pawn for pwoer against the Emporer and the Church. Aslo there were those on the side of the Church that saw him as a treat to their power, of which they more than likly were abuseing and they advised Rome in a very ill manner on the subject. That Lead to Luthers excommunication. Once that happened, Luther was as in the right on a great many things, no longer had the guidance of the church and was being advised by those with an agenda for power.

the whole thing would have been avoided if Trent had been call 20 some years earlier. Many of the things Luther had orginally ojected to were dealt with at the council.

 

[JonNC]

Going back to the name of the thread, we Lutherans do not follow Luther, though we are influenced by his thought. We do just like Catholics and follow Christ.

Boy. am I happy you said this!!!

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

Now only if y’all would start following him the way WE do…

 

[JonNC]

Now only if y’all would start following him the way WE do…

In many, many ways, we do.

Jon

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Love back atcha, Newbie2.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Newbie2, you are quite correct about my list not being exhaustive. I did not plan on writing the life of Luther. There have been so many who have already done that better than I could ever hope to. My idea was to suggest that Catholics walk a mile in Luther’s shoes. And watch out for thunderstorms. ( 500 years and Lutherans still tell the same old jokes)

Going back to the name of the thread, we Lutherans do not follow Luther, though we are influenced by his thought. We do just like Catholics and follow Christ.

This was my thought when I read the top of the thread. To say that Lutherans are followers of Luther would be something like accusing Roman Catholics of being followers of St. Thomas Aquinas.

One interesting thing that I learned by studying parts of the Carmina Burana last spring was the extent of corruption in the continental Church already in the 12th and 13th centuries. No wonder people were pretty frustrated by the time Luther rolled along.

 

[dogknox]

Love back atcha, Newbie2.

I add scripture Prophesy to the mix. This PROPHESY can only work in one direction…
Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest… he was AMONG the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was NOT, the Catholic Church could not be; AMONG Martin Luther!

2 peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

Oldtimer_7 Because this PROPHESY can only work in one direction, it proves Martin Luther to be a False Teacher!
It PROVES: The Catholic Church must be the** “Way Of Truth**”!

The Catholic Church was NOT AMONG Martin Luther… so the Prophesy tells you; The Catholic Church must be the; Way Of truth!

Until Martin Luther, there was only the Catholic Church! To be Protestant you are forced to reject this Prophesy, as a lie.

Dogknox

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Dogknox, posting 95 theses on the door if the church is not exactly introducing secret heresies. Luther was not a totally original thinker. Many of the theses were matters of common concern in the Catholic academic world.

In answer to your comment about Luther being among the church, rather than the reverse, would not the same pertain to my fellow Bavarian, Pope Benedict XV!? In fact, the comparison is more apt than meets the eye. Luther was a professor at one of the leading Catholic universities in Germany, and so was the Pope.

Now as for your assertion that there was only one church until the Reformation, I will point to two things. First, Paul and the Apostles’ meeting in Jerusalem in which there was Apostolic approval for two churches, one of which held that to be Christian, one had to follow Jewish law and practice, and the other not held to these practices. Second, the existence of the Orthodox church, That split occurred 500 years before Luther. If we are to consider that you have spoken prophetically, how are we to view you?

Now, I have not been posting scripture, since among this elect group, an allusion is all that is needed in most cases, but here is one from Saint Paul.

DRC: Philippians Chapter 1

[14] And many of the brethren in the Lord, growing confident by my bands, are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear.
[15] Some indeed, even out of envy and contention; but some also for good will preach Christ.
[16] Some out of charity, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
[17] And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely: supposing that they raise affliction to my bands.
[18] But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

As an outworking of this verse, I rejoice in my Catholic brethren, my Evangelical Protestant brethren, my Orthodox brethren, and anyone else who preaches the good news of Christ. risen.

Brother Dogknox, God knows where we are even when we feel we are lost. That you have found a good home in the Catholic Church is a reason for me to rejoice. Our differences are real, but the overarching reality is that we follow Christ and are claimed by Him. This why I felt the love when Newbie2 made his comment and why I feel it in your spirited debate.

Dave, I love Carmina Burana. It is one of the pieces that I have to listen to with headphones, because it is so rich in texture. You must be really into the music to be reading church history to get a feel for the the background of the work.

 

[KathleenGee]

David Noonan,

Did you ever read about the great saints and their followers Christ called to overcome corruption?

St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Dominic, St. Simon Stock, and the beginnings of their monastic orders–the Franciscans, Dominicans, and Carmelites as well as the many saints Christ gave the Church to remedy it???