Why I could never follow Luther.

[rinnie]

By the way Jon sorry about the comparison with Joseph Smith he was the first one who came off the top of my head.

But I guess what my point was he had different views of scripture also, thats all.

Whenever I say that you cannot be saved by faith alone I always get being accused of saying that Jesus dying on the cross wasn’t enough then I never understood how that could come about because as you and I agree without Jesus dying on the Cross eternal life would not be possible for any of us.

But just because Jesus made it possible it is up for us to kinda take the ball and run with it, or take the penalty

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Thank you, Campeador. We are in the same boat, really. Those folk who rail against Catholics are not so hot on Lutherans, either.
God’s blessings.

 

[dogknox]

JonNC
Your words…

The good works we are required (note I said required) by Christ’s call to do, do not merit us in any way salvation. It is Christ’s merit alone that saves (Grace). But if we have a living, active, saving faith, and not a dead faith, we respond with love and charity toward our neighbors. This is the love that must come with faith. Those in need are the recipients of that love, love which is is evidence of the grace we have received through faith.

You twist the scriptures… If they are REQUIRED then they are a “MUST DO!”
Faith PLUS Good works… Not Faith ALONE!
Jesus is clear… “What MUST you DO” to gain eternal life?
Luke 10:25 **
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied.** “Do this and you will live.”

QUESTION: “What MUST you do to have eternal life”?
A person with Faith ALONE is action-less! Love less!

To be Lutheran you are forced to believe the Scriptures lie. Because YOU MUST LOVE!
Wait… Jesus does NOT stop there…
Jesus continues.. with an example of a person with LOVE ALONE and “Faith ALONE”!
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

JonNC Then Jesus tells the “Good Samaritan” story.
The Priest and the Levite had “faith ALONE” they pass by!
The Samaritan… a person who is looked down on as “Godless” had LOVE ALONE!
The Story ends with…
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him,** “Go and do likewise.”**

JonNC The Samaritan will “Have eternal LIFE!” The Faith ALONE Priest and Levite will NOT!

Fact to have Eternal LIFE you MUST…You HAVE to LOVE! (Good works)!

Your words…

Now, what if someone chooses not to act out his faith in love? By not doing Christ’s commands, it is sin, and repeated and unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith and grace.

I reply: If someone chooses not to act out his faith in love, then he does NOT go to heaven… because then he has “Faith ALONE”!

FACT: A man with Faith ALONE is without LOVE or hope!
There are just the three…“Faith, hope & Love”! If you have Faith ALONE then you are without Hope & LOVE! If you have LOVE alone then you are without Hope and Faith! If you are with HOPE alone, then you are without Love or faith! Just three, only the three!
A person can’t be saved by Faith ALONE… the person with faith ALONE is without God…Scriptures are clear.“God IS LOVE!”

You MUST LOVE! God COMMANDS IT!
The Good Samaritan had LOVE… “You MUST have good words to have eternal life!”

Well, he said in John 3:16 …*For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. *

FACT: John 3:16 is saying… "To have eternal LIFE… you MUST believe the words of “The WORD”! To believe in Jesus you must believe the scriptures… he wrote them!
**Question **how can you have faith in Jesus if you have faith ALONE in Martin Luther… a man who rejected Jesus!

Dogknox

 

[JonNC]

JonNC
Your words…
You twist the scriptures… If they are REQUIRED then they are a “MUST DO!”
Faith PLUS Good works… Not Faith ALONE!
Jesus is clear… “What MUST you DO” to gain eternal life?
Luke 10:25 **
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied.** “Do this and you will live.”

QUESTION: “What MUST you do to have eternal life”?
A person with Faith ALONE is action-less! Love less!

To be Lutheran you are forced to believe the Scriptures lie. Because YOU MUST LOVE!
Wait… Jesus does NOT stop there…
Jesus continues.. with an example of a person with LOVE ALONE and “Faith ALONE”!
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

JonNC Then Jesus tells the “Good Samaritan” story.
The Priest and the Levite had “faith ALONE” they pass by!
The Samaritan… a person who is looked down on as “Godless” had LOVE ALONE!
The Story ends with…
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him,** “Go and do likewise.”**

JonNC The Samaritan will “Have eternal LIFE!” The Faith ALONE Priest and Levite will NOT!

Fact to have Eternal LIFE you MUST…You HAVE to LOVE! (Good works)!

Your words…
I reply: If someone chooses not to act out his faith in love, then he does NOT go to heaven… because then he has “Faith ALONE”!

FACT: A man with Faith ALONE is without LOVE or hope!
There are just the three…“Faith, hope & Love”! If you have Faith ALONE then you are without Hope & LOVE! If you have LOVE alone then you are without Hope and Faith! If you are with HOPE alone, then you are without Love or faith! Just three, only the three!
A person can’t be saved by Faith ALONE… the person with faith ALONE is without God…Scriptures are clear.“God IS LOVE!”

You MUST LOVE! God COMMANDS IT!
The Good Samaritan had LOVE… “You MUST have good words to have eternal life!”

FACT: John 3:16 is saying… "To have eternal LIFE… you MUST believe the words of “The WORD”! To believe in Jesus you must believe the scriptures… he wrote them!
**Question **how can you have faith in Jesus if you have faith ALONE in Martin Luther… a man who rejected Jesus!

Dogknox

Dear friend,
Again you have revealed two things:

1. you do not understand what sola fide means
2. this makes it difficult to dialogue with you, particularly when you make unfounded, judgemental statements such as Luther was a man who rejected Jesus.

Your polemic approach adds nothing to positive dialogue, and I will not allow myself to be drawn into your argument, as your distortion of faith alone is a simplistic strawman not based in fact.

Jon

 

[dogknox]

Dear friend,
Again you have revealed two things:

1. you do not understand what sola fide means
2. this makes it difficult to dialogue with you, particularly when you make** unfounded, judgemental **statements ****such as Luther was a man who rejected Jesus.
   Your polemic approach adds nothing to positive dialogue, and I will not allow myself to be drawn into your argument, as your distortion of faith alone is a simplistic strawman not based in fact.
   Jon

I reply first with scripture…
Jesus warns… “man CONDEMNS himself if he rejects the scriptures!”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

**JonNC **Do you see it?
**A person REJECTS Jesus **if they do NOT accept his words.
**A Person REJECTS Jesus if **they do NOT accept the scriptures!

**JonNC ** IF… Martin Luther does NOT accept the scriptures he CONDEMNS himself. It is just this simple.

Martin Luther wanted to remove the whole Epistle of James from the bible… accept he was talked out of it.
Martin Luther ADDED the word “Alone” to the book of Romans. Both are historical FACTS!
I understand the scriptures…
They are very clear… “A person is JUSTIFIED BY>>What he Does<< Not by Faith Alone”!
These words (above) of Jesus, Martin Luther rejected!
Luther said the opposite to Jesus…“A person is Justified by Faith Alone”!

JonNC NO…unfounded, judgmental statements on my part, all my statements are historical documented FACT!

Jesus said… His words. “Listen to the Church”!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
FACT: Martin Luther REJECTED Jesus… he thus condemned himself!

Jesus said.. His words; “I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”!
Luther said… “Jesus left the Church… That Satan is the head of the Church!”
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
You also are forced to think, Jesus lied… That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his Church!

Jesus said… “The Church is the Pillar and the foundation of truth”!
Luther said… “The Scriptures are all I need”! He rejected the Truth of the Church"!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”

JonNC Three Question (above) You can’t answer truthfully or you will have to admit “Martin Luther CONDEMNED Himself!” It is your pride that keeps you from the truth!

Dogknox

 

[JonNC]

I reply first with scripture…
Jesus warns… “man CONDEMNS himself if he rejects the scriptures!”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

**JonNC **Do you see it?
**A person REJECTS Jesus **if they do NOT accept his words.
**A Person REJECTS Jesus if **they do NOT accept the scriptures!

**JonNC ** IF… Martin Luther does NOT accept the scriptures he CONDEMNS himself. It is just this simple.

Martin Luther wanted to remove the whole Epistle of James from the bible… accept he was talked out of it.
Martin Luther ADDED the word “Alone” to the book of Romans. Both are historical FACTS!
I understand the scriptures…
They are very clear… “A person is JUSTIFIED BY>>What he Does<< Not by Faith Alone”!
These words (above) of Jesus, Martin Luther rejected!
Luther said the opposite to Jesus…“A person is Justified by Faith Alone”!

JonNC NO…unfounded, judgmental statements on my part, all my statements are historical documented FACT!

Jesus said… His words. “Listen to the Church”!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
FACT: Martin Luther REJECTED Jesus… he thus condemned himself!

Jesus said.. His words; “I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”!
Luther said… “Jesus left the Church… That Satan is the head of the Church!”
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
You also are forced to think, Jesus lied… That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his Church!

Jesus said… “The Church is the Pillar and the foundation of truth”!
Luther said… “The Scriptures are all I need”! He rejected the Truth of the Church"!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”

JonNC Three Question (above) You can’t answer truthfully or you will have to admit “Martin Luther CONDEMNED Himself!” **It is your pride that keeps you from the truth!**Dogknox

Peace,
Jon

 

[campeador]

Thank you, Campeador. We are in the same boat, really. Those folk who rail against Catholics are not so hot on Lutherans, either.
God’s blessings.

You’re welcome, my friend. When reading the posts of Lutherans here I am so many times filled with joy knowing there is so little separating us. I pray that by God’s Grace some day we can truly call ourselves One Church.

 

[rinnie]

I reply first with scripture…
Jesus warns… “man CONDEMNS himself if he rejects the scriptures!”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

**JonNC **Do you see it?
**A person REJECTS Jesus **if they do NOT accept his words.
**A Person REJECTS Jesus if **they do NOT accept the scriptures!

**JonNC ** IF… Martin Luther does NOT accept the scriptures he CONDEMNS himself. It is just this simple.

Martin Luther wanted to remove the whole Epistle of James from the bible… accept he was talked out of it.
Martin Luther ADDED the word “Alone” to the book of Romans. Both are historical FACTS!
I understand the scriptures…
They are very clear… “A person is JUSTIFIED BY>>What he Does<< Not by Faith Alone”!
These words (above) of Jesus, Martin Luther rejected!
Luther said the opposite to Jesus…“A person is Justified by Faith Alone”!

JonNC NO…unfounded, judgmental statements on my part, all my statements are historical documented FACT!

Jesus said… His words. “Listen to the Church”!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
FACT: Martin Luther REJECTED Jesus… he thus condemned himself!

Jesus said.. His words; “I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”!
Luther said… “Jesus left the Church… That Satan is the head of the Church!”
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”
You also are forced to think, Jesus lied… That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his Church!

Jesus said… “The Church is the Pillar and the foundation of truth”!
Luther said… “The Scriptures are all I need”! He rejected the Truth of the Church"!
Question “Did Martin Luther accept these words of Jesus or REJECT them!??”

JonNC Three Question (above) You can’t answer truthfully or you will have to admit “Martin Luther CONDEMNED Himself!” It is your pride that keeps you from the truth!

Dogknox

Dogknox I am sorry I must agree with Jon on this one. I can never agree with you that Luther rejected the scriptures. If so which ones? I have never read or saw that Luther rejected Jesus or scriptures. The only thing I can see Luther guilty of is trying to teach them and interpret them in his own way. The bible does not say that scripture cannot be interpreted by Humans, It just says that in order to teach it that person must be LED by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Because the Pope and Bishops have to understand it, and are able to interpret it by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Luther never rejected scripture, he was only guilty of claiming he had the power of the Holy Spirit to do so. Where he failed is the Holy Spirit will not turn you from the truth that was already told by previous Apostles. He was trying to do that. He was not teaching what was already revealed by the Holy Spirit by previous Apostles. ( I hope I said this right)

But my point is Luther turned away from the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church, but he never denied Jesus, He just misinterpreted scripture is all.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you, Campeador. We are in the same boat, really. Those folk who rail against Catholics are not so hot on Lutherans, either.
God’s blessings.

See thats what bonds us together. That and SO SO many other things. We really are in the same boat because we are united together One in Christ by our Baptism. We just are not perfecting united in communion yet is all! But like all things we will be in time, but not OUR time GOD’S Time. As as we can all agree on, God takes his time!!

 

[dogknox]

Dogknox I am sorry I must agree with Jon on this one. I can never agree with you that Luther rejected the scriptures. If so which ones? I have never read or saw that Luther rejected Jesus or scriptures. The only thing I can see Luther guilty of is trying to teach them and interpret them in his own way. The bible does not say that scripture cannot be interpreted by Humans, It just says that in order to teach it that person must be LED by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Because the Pope and Bishops have to understand it, and are able to interpret it by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Luther never rejected scripture, he was only guilty of claiming he had the power of the Holy Spirit to do so. Where he failed is the Holy Spirit will not turn you from the truth that was already told by previous Apostles. He was trying to do that. He was not teaching what was already revealed by the Holy Spirit by previous Apostles. ( I hope I said this right)

But my point is Luther turned away from the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church, but he never denied Jesus, He just misinterpreted scripture is all.

Hello rinnie it is good to hear from you…
Word for word…from the mouth of** Martin Luther**…“Satan is the head of the Catholic Church”!
Jesus said…from his mouth, word for word… “I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”!

rinnie What can a logical thinking person conclude from the two above statements.
Only this: One must be the truth and one statement must be a lie!

Martin Luther wanted to think Jesus lied.
He wanted to think that; Satan Somehow, Overpowered God… That Satan TOOK the Body of Jesus away from Jesus!
He wanted to think; Jesus said the word, “ALWAYS” knowing that he was going to leave his body in the future!

The Protestant in general wants to think that Jesus would leave his “Bride” for the “thousands of man formed Protestant bodies”! Otherwise…
Otherwise there would be NO Protest. They are forced to believe; “Jesus left his Bride”!!

rinnie The Protestant wants to believe Jesus would commit Adultery with the thousands of man formed Protestant bodies!

rinnie For Martin Luther to have said…“Satan is the head of the Catholic Church”, he had to reject the words of Jesus! He had to reject the scriptures!

Jesus said… “Listen to the Church or be treated as Pagan”!
Martin Luther refused to believe these words of Jesus, words also found in the scriptures!

Jesus said… “The CHURCH is the Pillar and the foundation, Of Truth”!
Martin Luther also refused to believe these words of Jesus. He had to rejected these words, this scripture, to continue his Protest.

Jesus said… “A person is JUSTIFIED by what he does, NOT by Faith Alone”!
Martin Luther also refused to believe these words of Jesus. He had to twist the words of Jesus to say…“A person is Justified by Faith ALONE”! He was going to remove the whole epistle, how can you think he did not reject the scriptures!!!

These scriptures Luther rejected (above) and there are many others that the Protestant in General, is forced to reject, to stay in Protestantism.
How can you say “they” never denied Jesus.

Scripture… From the mouth of Jesus…
John 12:48
There is a judge** for the one who rejects me** and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

rinnie What does Jesus tell you in the above verse… He warns…
He warns, "You do not accept his words.…THEN you are REJECTING HIM!"

rinnie Am I making this up?
Do I twist the words of Jesus?
NO… I post the scriptures!! Period!

 

[dogknox]

See thats what bonds us together. That and SO SO many other things. We really are in the same boat because we are united together *One in Christ by our Baptism. *We just are not perfecting united in communion yet is all! But like all things we will be in time, but not OUR time GOD’S Time. As as we can all agree on, God takes his time!!

rinnie … The Protestant does NOT believe Baptism saves.
They believe Baptism is SYMBOLIC! It shows others they have chosen Christ!

Your words.. *One in Christ by our Baptism. *
They are laughing at you…

Dogknox

 

[JonNC]

rinnie … The Protestant does NOT believe Baptism saves.
They believe Baptism is SYMBOLIC! It shows others they have chosen Christ!

Your words.. *One in Christ by our Baptism. *
They are laughing at you…

Dogknox

From the Augsburg Confession

Article IX: Of Baptism.

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

3] They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

You see, my Christian friend, this is what I mean when I say you do not have a reasonable knowledge of Luther or Lutheranism.
Now, maybe I am misunderstanding you, and you are of the opinion that Lutherans are not Protestant. If so, carry on.

Jon

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I have a Question.

I remember in the movie “Luther” that Martin did go before some sort of tribunal( which as a catholic I can say was a very good movie even with it heavy slant toward Luther). Question I have did he ever Go to Rome and Meet with Pope Leo X or was everything always dealth with by go between men?

This to me is an important question as from all that I have read up to the end were Luther was given the choice to recant or excummioncated. He was pretty dead on about the abuses, And that is what he had the problem with not so much the teachings but the way inwhich those teaching were being applied and abused.

 

[JonNC]

I have a Question.

I remember in the movie “Luther” that Martin did go before some sort of tribunal( which as a catholic I can say was a very good movie even with it heavy slant toward Luther). Question I have did he ever Go to Rome and Meet with Pope Leo X or was everything always dealth with by go between men?

This to me is an important question as from all that I have read up to the end were Luther was given the choice to recant or excummioncated. He was pretty dead on about the abuses, And that is what he had the problem with not so much the teachings but the way inwhich those teaching were being applied and abused.

To my knowledge, he made his pilgrimage to Rome prior to 1517. So, the answer would be no, Scott. One can only wonder how that would have gone.

Jon

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

To my knowledge, he made his pilgrimage to Rome prior to 1517. So, the answer would be no, Scott. One can only wonder how that would have gone.

Jon

Thank you Jon. That is sad, I really believe that if he had that at least the Luthern protion of the reformation would not have happen. As I see both Luther and Pope Leo X getting very bad advise on the situtation.

The thing is now we have to deal this what we have now, not what happened then. Docturinally there is very little that seperate the Catholic and Lutheran. On the other hand disicpline and (t)radititions are blocks to reunion as well as there seems to be at times when we use the same words and do’t understand each other. the Biggest block IMHO is that there is this need to keep rehashing the past.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I have a Question.

I remember in the movie “Luther” that Martin did go before some sort of tribunal( which as a catholic I can say was a very good movie even with it heavy slant toward Luther). Question I have did he ever Go to Rome and Meet with Pope Leo X or was everything always dealth with by go between men?

This to me is an important question as from all that I have read up to the end were Luther was given the choice to recant or excummioncated. He was pretty dead on about the abuses, And that is what he had the problem with not so much the teachings but the way inwhich those teaching were being applied and abused.

Luther went to Rome in 1510. He went as part of a mission for the Augustinians. I think it could be said that the seeds of the reformation were probably planted on that trip. Luther saw corruption and excess in the Curia.

I think even if Luther and Leo X had met in person, there would have not been any reconciliation. Being part of the Medici machine, I think Leo X was at the heart of many of the issues.

If I am not mistaken, Leo had summoned Luther to Rome after a charge of heresy was made. Frederick the Wise asked Leo to have Luther examined at Augsburg where Luther could be protected and not subjected to the fate of Jan Hus.

 

[rinnie]

Hello rinnie it is good to hear from you…
Word for word…from the mouth of** Martin Luther**…“Satan is the head of the Catholic Church”!
Jesus said…from his mouth, word for word… “I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”!

rinnie What can a logical thinking person conclude from the two above statements.
Only this: One must be the truth and one statement must be a lie!

Martin Luther wanted to think Jesus lied.
He wanted to think that; Satan Somehow, Overpowered God… That Satan TOOK the Body of Jesus away from Jesus!
He wanted to think; Jesus said the word, “ALWAYS” knowing that he was going to leave his body in the future!

The Protestant in general wants to think that Jesus would leave his “Bride” for the “thousands of man formed Protestant bodies”! Otherwise…
Otherwise there would be NO Protest. They are forced to believe; “Jesus left his Bride”!!

rinnie The Protestant wants to believe Jesus would commit Adultery with the thousands of man formed Protestant bodies!

rinnie For Martin Luther to have said…“Satan is the head of the Catholic Church”, he had to reject the words of Jesus! He had to reject the scriptures!

Jesus said… “Listen to the Church or be treated as Pagan”!
Martin Luther refused to believe these words of Jesus, words also found in the scriptures!

Jesus said… “The CHURCH is the Pillar and the foundation, Of Truth”!
Martin Luther also refused to believe these words of Jesus. He had to rejected these words, this scripture, to continue his Protest.

Jesus said… “A person is JUSTIFIED by what he does, NOT by Faith Alone”!
Martin Luther also refused to believe these words of Jesus. He had to twist the words of Jesus to say…“A person is Justified by Faith ALONE”! He was going to remove the whole epistle, how can you think he did not reject the scriptures!!!

These scriptures Luther rejected (above) and there are many others that the Protestant in General, is forced to reject, to stay in Protestantism.
How can you say “they” never denied Jesus.

Scripture… From the mouth of Jesus…
John 12:48
There is a judge** for the one who rejects me** and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

rinnie What does Jesus tell you in the above verse… He warns…
He warns, "You do not accept his words.…THEN you are REJECTING HIM!"

rinnie Am I making this up?
Do I twist the words of Jesus?
NO… I post the scriptures!! Period!

Hi dogknox, let me show you what our faith teaches. I get alot of my teachings and understanding from Bishop Wuerl, you may know who he is, actually he has just became a Cardinal in our faith.

He tells us that the Church ALONE possesses the means to understand and interpret Scripture infallibly.

He tells us that it is evident that Gods word was entrusted to the whole Body of Christ the CHURCH. Members of that body look to its VISIBLE head, the Pope and the Bishops and their teaching office for authentic rendering of Gods word as understood and applied to todays world.

Now he also made a excellent point we all have to realize and I believe even Jon will agree with us on,

To interpret that word God left it up to the magisterium or teaching office of the Church. Without them we would not even know what was the true word or not.

Now that says alot. Because if it were up to us alone, how could we even agree on the word of God. He had to pick certain people to have this power. Or there would not even be any true authentic word to even argue about.

Now if God trusted certain people to distinguish what writings were to constitute the bible, then we have to believe trusts certain people to teach that in the true understanding of God.

We are urged to read the bible, but do in in the full context of the Churchs centuries of reflecting on its meaning under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Now it is impossible for any of us to do that without the Church.

Now let me again explain to you where I disagee with you 100%. I have never seen Luther rejecting Jesus. Now this shows you how the Good Lord works in mysterious ways, I AM DEFENDING LUTHER, and I AM THE ONE who showed why I could never follow him

But because I do not agree with alot of what he taught, I can honestly say I agree with MORE or what he DID teach then didn’t. But the problem is the few things that he did teach as in which I pointed above that goes totally against the word of God.

But you can never accuse anyone of rejecting Christ for not totally understanding his words. If that were the fact we are all doomed, do you see what I mean?

 

[rinnie]

From the Augsburg Confession

You see, my Christian friend, this is what I mean when I say you do not have a reasonable knowledge of Luther or Lutheranism.
Now, maybe I am misunderstanding you, and you are of the opinion that Lutherans are not Protestant. If so, carry on.

Jon

Now see here is a perfect example of a Protestant acting more like a Catholic then a Catholic. Jon is a perfect example of the Catholic faith. He is kind, compassionate and understands that our faith is just as important to us as his it to him.

I have never heard Jon in a negative way insult any person or any religion for any reason. That is proof that God’s grace lives in all faiths.

Now before this goes elsewhere who is getting accused of not being the good Catholic (at times) Me

 

[rinnie]

Luther went to Rome in 1510. He went as part of a mission for the Augustinians. I think it could be said that the seeds of the reformation were probably planted on that trip. Luther saw corruption and excess in the Curia.

I think even if Luther and Leo X had met in person, there would have not been any reconciliation. Being part of the Medici machine, I think Leo X was at the heart of many of the issues.

If I am not mistaken, Leo had summoned Luther to Rome after a charge of heresy was made. Frederick the Wise asked Leo to have Luther examined at Augsburg where Luther could be protected and not subjected to the fate of Jan Hus.

And this is something that we as Catholic’s must admit. Luther did see corruption in our Church. There were very bad examples from People who should have been doing better.

But what Luther did was not right either. He took the sins of Man, and turned around and tried to bring down the Church of Christ, IMHO.

Now what he should have done was continue to bring forth the wrong doing by men, but he should have never left the True Church. He should have stayed and fought for HIS CHURCH and HIS GOD. Because what people need to remember the RCC is not the Popes Church, or the Bishop or Priests Church. IT is OUR CHURCH. IT is OUR GOD.

When we walk in there we worship GOD not the Pope etc. But we do have respect Love for our Pope and respect his authority to teach Gods word. ANd we know that no matter how he can sin in his own personal life, he cannot teach us ONE WRONG WORD when he teaches us the word of God. Because simply Jesus told his Apostles I WILL GIVE YOU THE WORDS.

No matter how he lives his personal life (which may I add, I believe that John Paul 11 and the present Pope are great example for us today) it cannot take away that power from the Holy Spriit to teach in God’s name. That Promise came from the Boss. Our dear Lord and Savior himself!!

Luther gave the impression that if a Man is a Pope or Bishop (more or less Apostle of Jesus) he is to be without sin. That is not possible. Our original Apostles had sin.

So Luther in turn started HIS own Church and what example did he show? Something to think about.

 

[dogknox]

Hello** rinnie**… thank you for your reply… You said…

Hi dogknox, let me show you what our faith teaches. I get alot of my teachings and understanding from Bishop Wuerl, you may know who he is, actually he has just became a Cardinal in our faith.

He tells us that the Church ALONE possesses the means to understand and interpret Scripture infallibly.

He tells us that it is evident that Gods word was entrusted to the whole Body of Christ the CHURCH. Members of that body look to its VISIBLE head, the Pope and the Bishops and their teaching office for authentic rendering of Gods word as understood and applied to todays world.

Now he also made a excellent point we all have to realize and I believe even Jon will agree with us on,

To interpret that word God left it up to the magisterium or teaching office of the Church. Without them we would not even know what was the true word or not.

Now that says alot. Because if it were up to us alone, how could we even agree on the word of God. He had to pick certain people to have this power. Or there would not even be any true authentic word to even argue about.

Now if God trusted certain people to distinguish what writings were to constitute the bible, then we have to believe trusts certain people to teach that in the true understanding of God.
We are urged to read the bible, but do in in the full context of the Churchs centuries of reflecting on its meaning under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Now it is impossible for any of us to do that without the Church.
Now let me again explain to you where I disagee with you 100%. I have never seen Luther rejecting Jesus. Now this shows you how the Good Lord works in mysterious ways, I AM DEFENDING LUTHER, and I AM THE ONE who showed why I could never follow him
But because I do not agree with alot of what he taught, I can honestly say I agree with MORE or what he DID teach then didn’t. But the problem is the few things that he did teach as in which I pointed above that goes totally against the word of God.
But you can never accuse anyone of rejecting Christ for not totally understanding his words. If that were the fact we are all doomed, do you see what I mean?

I reply: Scripture tells you…
If you reject the words of Jesus then you are rejecting Jesus.
If you reject the words of Jesus then you are rejecting the scriptures!

** rinnie** Let me point this out to you…
Jesus gave his warning… In John 12 “He who does NOT accept my words REJECTS ME, (the scriptures) MY WORDS will Condemn him!”… THEN…
Then he said this next… John 13…“This IS my body” (as he held up bread)
Then we read this…
**John 13:27 **As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

rinnie Judas REJECTED Jesus… Because he did NOT accept the words of Jesus!
Satan claimed what was his… “All who reject Jesus are the Children of Satan!”
All who do NOT accept the words of Jesus are rejecting Jesus!
All who do NOT accept the scriptures are rejecting Jesus!
All who reject the “WARNING” (the words of Jesus) are rejecting Jesus!

Question… How can you say Martin Luther did NOT reject Jesus?
Jesus said… “A person is JUSTIFIED BY WHAT HE DOES… Not by Faith Alone”!
Luther was going to remove the whole epistle from the bible because it said…
“A person is JUSTIFIED BY WHAT HE DOES… Not by Faith Alone”!

rinnie It is a HISTORICAL FACT: Martin Luther was willing to remove the book from the bible!
If this is NOT rejecting the words of Jesus (Rejecting Jesus) then what is!!?

Dogknox