Why I could never follow Luther.

[Mikeoffaith]

I was thinking of this all day and wonder how others feel about it.

Luther came AFTER the Church. Now scriptures said the Church is One, Holy, Catholic,and Apostolic.

Now on a common sense level Luther separated himself from the ONE Church. Now we come into the battle who has the ONE Church. It has to be the Church that was started by Peter.

Now here is where the problem with Luther comes in my mind. Luther was at one time a part of the Church started by Peter. Simply because, he walked away from the Church that History proves was connected to Peter. Here is where common sense comes to play, Peter and the CC were here long before Luther, Luther was not here long before the CC.

Now in my eyes it shows how Luther walked away from Jesus because Jesus said the Church and I are ONE. and there is ONE HCAC,

Now rather there was sin going by humans in the RCC at that time or not has nothing to do with the OHCAC.

I mean do People really think that Peter did not have Sin, that John didn’t, Etc. We know they did because of the repentance that they continued to do all of their lives.

Now the RCC is considered the Church that is led by the Pope. (the present Peter). Now the Catholic Church is universal. Which mean one, all are welcome, all can become one in Christ through Christ with Christ who is the Church.

Now I have heard that there is no such thing as the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! Now that is not true. Now granted the Church is not Roman but it is called the Roman Catholic Church, has been forever.

Now Luther was at one time part of the RCC. Now if the Church is one, and was here long before Luther how could there possibly be more than One Church?

Please no disrespect anyone, just trying to figure out their line of reasoning on this?

Hi Rinnie-

Just to go back to this point about the OHCAC, what of the Orthodox? Only two of the five in the Pentarchy, claim Peter as their founder so then does that mean that Antioch has as much claim to the papacy as Rome?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hello oneGODoneCHURCH it is good to meet you…
You said…

I point to the scriptures…
First Jesus teaches… In John 6…from verse # 45…“They will be TAUGHT by God” down to verse # 59…“he said this while TEACHING” all in between these verses is God TEACHING… The Jews don’t believe the TEACHING because they don’t believe Jesus is God… they call Jesus “A MAN” in verse # 52! The Disciples reject the TEACHING and** leave Jesus**… they say…“WHO can believe this TEACHING”!
The Apostles STAY they do not leave Jesus…
Peter announces “We BELIEVE you are God and we believe your TEACHING!”
oneGODoneCHURCH Judas did NOT leave with the others who rejected the teaching… He stayed as a believer…
oneGODoneCHURCH Judas was a “HYPOCRITE” … LOOK what Jesus said in reply to Peters declaration about Jesus.
Peter… 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? **You have the words **of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Jesus… 70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

NEXT…
Second… Jesus warns the Apostles in John 12 The person who does NOT accept his words; REJECTS him! Then is John 13 Jesus holds up bread and declared…“This IS my body”!

oneGODoneCHURCH As soon as Judas ate… Satan took him, all who REJECT Jesus are the children of Satan!

NEXT…
Third
1 Corinthians 11:27 **
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.**
oneGODoneCHURCH Do you see it… “You can’t sin against a SYMBOL!” Judas sinned by eating the bread!

28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
oneGODoneCHURCH Do you see it… “Judas CONDEMNED himself”!
Judas rejected the WARNING of Jesus and ate even after Jesus said… “This IS my body”!

Dogknox

Hello Dogknox,

I gree with you on everything you have written here, but I still have to ask If was not his failing truely his inability to seek and ask for forgivness? To truely repent of the sins he had committed? If he had done so would not he have been redeemed? I believe he would have and that is why I said that his greatest sin was to not believe in Christ forgieness and to ask for it.

For How else am I to be worthy of recieveing christ, but to ask for his forgivness of my sins. Would that not have been so for Judas as well? Could he not have been redeemed if he had asked. I have to believe that it was his as well as people todays inablility to truely believe and trust in God grace and forgiveness that leads to our bring comdemnation upon themself.

Yes is may have been worse on Judas as he walked with christ and had first hand knowledge of Him and what he said and did, But does that Change his ability to be forgiven?

 

[JonNC]

=dogknox;7235001]Hello JonNC good question… BUT…
But you are mixed up… I was PROVING… “You reject the scriptures, then you are rejecting Jesus!”
Judas also rejected the words of Jesus… thus he was condemned… Satan claimed what was his…“All who reject Jesus are the Children of Satan!”
rinnie asked “What words did Judas reject”?
JonNC And I answered … Judas rejected Jesus… Jesus held up bread and declared: “This IS my Body”! Judas rejected the word “IS”!

Not sure where you get the quote from, that Judas rejected the Eucharist, but ok.

Martin Luther also rejected Jesus, he rejected the word, “ALWAYS” as a lie!
Jesus said, word for word…“I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the Age”! Martin Luther said… "Satan is the head of the Catholic Church… he believed "Satan overpowered Jesus, that Satan TOOK the Body of Jesus away from Jesus. He refused to believe Jesus, is ALWAYS with his Church!

He was not referring to an exit of the Holy Spirit, he was referring to the sins of the man (men) who were in charge of the Church at the time, those who were involved in the abuses of the Mass, etc.

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede – as we must – that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? Therefore, faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. . . . - Luther

Doesn’t sound to me like he thought Satan had overpowered Christ. What a ridiculous notion it is. the fact that it is contended is just as ridiculous.

Martin Luther rejected these words of Jesus’… “LISTEN to the Church or be treated as a Pagan”! Luther said… “I will NOT listen to the Church”! Luther rejected Jesus by rejecting the scriptures. “Pagan; A person out side of the body of God”. The Church had no choice but to remove Luther, as PAGAN!

Find me a Pope in recent memory that claims Luther as a Pagan. Why would Pope Benedict XVI visit a “pagan” parish in Rome this past March?

By your triumphalist claims, the Orthodox are pagan, too, since your narrow definition of Christ Church seems to be only those in communion with Rome. Correct?

Jesus said… “The Church is the Pillar and the foundation of truth”!
Agreed!!

Jesus said… “A person is JUSTIFIED by what he does…NOT by faith alone!”

Chapter and verse, please.
Again, I quote a Catholic/ Lutheran document:

In faith we together hold the conviction that **justification is the work of the triune God. **

The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. **The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. **Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works
“Justification is the work of the triune God”!!! To the extent that the works (charity) of you and I are indeed the work of the Triune God working through us, then yes, as Galatians 5:6 says: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: **but faith that worketh by charity. ** We are justified by faith alone - faith working through love.

Jesus said… “He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you, rejects me”!

Jesus said…this WARNING

just before he held up bread and declared it IS his body! >> “The person who does NOT accept my words REJECTS me!”<<
Every Lutheran - including Luther himself, accepts the words of Christ: “this is my body”!

Martin Luther rejected all of these scriptures (above) as LIES from the mouth of God!

This, my friend, is patently false. And under the command of the eighth commandment, I will assume you make it out of ignorance of Luther, and not from malice.

Jon

 

[Janet1983]

Martin Luther rejected these words of Jesus’… “LISTEN to the Church or be treated as a Pagan”! Luther said… “I will NOT listen to the Church”! Luther rejected Jesus by rejecting the scriptures. “Pagan; A person out side of the body of God”. The Church had no choice but to remove Luther, as PAGAN!

As far as I know Lutherans are not considered pagan. They are Christians just like you are a Christian. As far as I know ex-Catholic Christians (dissenters) are still Christians as well as you are a Christian.

Jesus said… “A person is JUSTIFIED by what he does…NOT by faith alone!”

That does sound a whole lot like salvation by works to me. Is that what you were trying to say or am I misinterpreting your words? Please forgive me if I am assuming something wrong about you.

 

[rinnie]

Ok there seems to be something quite different in our understanding of indulgences then and now and what was actually happening historically at the time.

If I seem to understand from what I have been reading and what you have been explaining, this is how it works, I’ll use your example of the special needs child. So you see some kid who is mentally challenged and you push them down and call them a retard. OK sin has been committed. You go to your local priest, you do the whole confession and absolution thing, your sin is forgiven, but there still needs to be a physical act to remove the temporal punishment still attached. So you give a little cash, and donate a little time to working with the Special Olympics, and bam you have earned an indulgence and your slate is wiped clean until you blow it again doing something else. Yes?

Actually No, you are way off. First of all remember I told you no cash can be involved anymore. Then the only way your slate is wiped clean totally is when you see the true damage your sin has done, and you really suffer yourself for the damage you have done.

You seem to think that money and doing good deeds is enough. That is not how it works, you must be sincere in those works, and it would be in those works, that you would probally actually come to love those Children. Then when you actually became to know them, and really love them, and then turn around and see someone do what you stated and actually felt their pain is when it really happens.

That is how to actually explain Purgatory. But you have done purgatory time actually here on earth. You have not only been purged from that sin in the process, that actual desire to repeat that sin is actually wiped clean forever.

Once you spent time with those kids and their familys you would become a part of their live and actually love them as your own family. That is a great example of the good Lord working in mysterious ways. Then you would maybe be somewhere with the Child or Mother or Father or bro, or sis and see the pain they endured by seeing someone making fun of that kid, and then you would see the great understanding, and would you not agree, it would be then where you saw the great damage of your sin, and would feel great pain yourself in a different way of understanding, that can come only from God. And then that sin would never be repeated, would you not agree?

That is when an indulgence would be granted, Or a better example would be if you never made fun of those kids, but donated money and much time just because its in your heart to do so. But because of the money thing today, its not allowed for an indulgence as I stated to you why.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie-

Just to go back to this point about the OHCAC, what of the Orthodox? Only two of the five in the Pentarchy, claim Peter as their founder so then does that mean that Antioch has as much claim to the papacy as Rome?

Not according to Tradition.

St Ignatitus of Antioch (C 110. A.D.)

St Ignatitus claims the Church of Rome has Priority in which the company of Church united by concord.

St. Ignatitus insists that anyone looking for the truth can find it in Tradition of the Apostles which every Local Church has perserved that every CHurch must have recourse to the RC which contains Tradition which is preserved by all Church’s.

 

[rinnie]

Ok there seems to be something quite different in our understanding of indulgences then and now and what was actually happening historically at the time.

If I seem to understand from what I have been reading and what you have been explaining, this is how it works, I’ll use your example of the special needs child. So you see some kid who is mentally challenged and you push them down and call them a retard. OK sin has been committed. You go to your local priest, you do the whole confession and absolution thing, your sin is forgiven, but there still needs to be a physical act to remove the temporal punishment still attached. So you give a little cash, and donate a little time to working with the Special Olympics, and bam you have earned an indulgence and your slate is wiped clean until you blow it again doing something else. Yes?

And actually Mike there is no difference between what they are today, and what they were yesterday, while I agree that it looked like abuses could have occured it was not usually that way. Not as a norm.

Like anything else in this world abuses always happen by the sin of man, but abuse could not be possible if it were done the way that Jesus taught. But unfortunately some Men can fall from Grace and ruin it for many.

But Luther as far as I can see never disagreed with indulgences, just the abuse of them, which no one is disputing.

 

[swords99]

I was thinking of this all day and wonder how others feel about it.

Luther came AFTER the Church. Now scriptures said the Church is One, Holy, Catholic,and Apostolic.

Now on a common sense level Luther separated himself from the ONE Church. Now we come into the battle who has the ONE Church. It has to be the Church that was started by Peter.

Now here is where the problem with Luther comes in my mind. Luther was at one time a part of the Church started by Peter. Simply because, he walked away from the Church that History proves was connected to Peter. Here is where common sense comes to play, Peter and the CC were here long before Luther, Luther was not here long before the CC.

Now in my eyes it shows how Luther walked away from Jesus because Jesus said the Church and I are ONE. and there is ONE HCAC,

Now rather there was sin going by humans in the RCC at that time or not has nothing to do with the OHCAC.

I mean do People really think that Peter did not have Sin, that John didn’t, Etc. We know they did because of the repentance that they continued to do all of their lives.

Now the RCC is considered the Church that is led by the Pope. (the present Peter). Now the Catholic Church is universal. Which mean one, all are welcome, all can become one in Christ through Christ with Christ who is the Church.

Now I have heard that there is no such thing as the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! Now that is not true. Now granted the Church is not Roman but it is called the Roman Catholic Church, has been forever.

Now Luther was at one time part of the RCC. Now if the Church is one, and was here long before Luther how could there possibly be more than One Church?

Please no disrespect anyone, just trying to figure out their line of reasoning on this?

You have to remember that Luther never wanted to leave Catholicism. He never wanted to start a new church or faith. He wanted the catholic church to address some wrongs. Instead of doing that, the pope excommunicated Luther.

Luther’s intention was not to start something new, but to go back to the simple teachings of Christ.

 

[swords99]

Yes, you asked him both, but he referenced your quote about Luther, but he never responded regarding Luther.

You know, I have great compassion for Judas. Can you imagine the anguish he suffered when he realized what he had done?? Does he deserve our prayers for God’s mercy on him?

Jon

Prayers can’t help Judas now. His eternal destiny is sealed. The Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. He needed to repent himself. However, God, who is sovereign and knows the future, knew whether Judas would repent.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Prayers can’t help Judas now. His eternal destiny is sealed. The Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. He needed to repent himself. However, God, who is sovereign and knows the future, knew whether Judas would repent.

You know you maybe right, but guess what they could not hurt him either and they just might help the one doing the praying. I do not know that in what ever form of suecide he died that just before he expired he may have called out for forginess. If so would God not forgive? I know that I can not makle that call.

 

[rinnie]

Prayers can’t help Judas now. His eternal destiny is sealed. The Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. He needed to repent himself. However, God, who is sovereign and knows the future, knew whether Judas would repent.

While I could agree with what you ar saying, and I agree that his destiny was sealed, we still do not know for sure how God sealed it, do you not agree?

My question would be DID Judas repent when he took back the money?

 

[rinnie]

You have to remember that Luther never wanted to leave Catholicism. He never wanted to start a new church or faith. He wanted the catholic church to address some wrongs. Instead of doing that, the pope excommunicated Luther.

Luther’s intention was not to start something new, but to go back to the simple teachings of Christ.

Really? Then why did he write those thing’s about the teaching’s of the Church. His diet of worms?

And what about how he said that bible is the final authority? When the bible itself shows this is not a Church teaching and proves him wrong?

 

[rinnie]

Prayers can’t help Judas now. His eternal destiny is sealed. The Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. He needed to repent himself. However, God, who is sovereign and knows the future, knew whether Judas would repent.

Also I was taught the only way that prayers do not help is if someone did not accept Jesus and refused to repent their sin. I was told that only Jesus knows a heart and will make the call at the moment of their death.

Anotherwards the only way prayers for the dead cannot help is if they are for sure in hell.

 

[rinnie]

You have to remember that Luther never wanted to leave Catholicism. He never wanted to start a new church or faith. He wanted the catholic church to address some wrongs. Instead of doing that, the pope excommunicated Luther.

Luther’s intention was not to start something new, but to go back to the simple teachings of Christ.

Also the reason he was excommunicated he refused to repent, and accept the infallibility of the Catholic Church. Again he felt that man has his own authority to define scripture. That is not what S.T. or S.S. states.

So you are saying that us being able to read the scripture and understand it was an Apostolic Teaching?

Scripture states in l Tim. 3:15 that the CHURCH is the living God and PILAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH, not scripture and Timothy also says that many have made a shipwreck of their faith.

It also says that he had this gift that was given to him by the laying of hands.

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT YOU HAVE which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word WITH THE IMPOSITION OF HANDS OF THE PRESBYTERATE. Now how is that not in direct conflict with the teachings of Luther? He claims we can all do this WITHOUT the laying of hands does he not?

 

[swords99]

While I could agree with what you ar saying, and I agree that his destiny was sealed, we still do not know for sure how God sealed it, do you not agree?

My question would be DID Judas repent when he took back the money?

It would seem that if Judas had repented. he wouldn’t have lost hope and killed himself.

 

[swords99]

Also the reason he was excommunicated he refused to repent, and accept the infallibility of the Catholic Church. Again he felt that man has his own authority to define scripture. That is not what S.T. or S.S. states.

So you are saying that us being able to read the scripture and understand it was an Apostolic Teaching?

Scripture states in l Tim. 3:15 that the CHURCH is the living God and PILAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH, not scripture and Timothy also says that many have made a shipwreck of their faith.

It also says that he had this gift that was given to him by the laying of hands.

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT YOU HAVE which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word WITH THE IMPOSITION OF HANDS OF THE PRESBYTERATE. Now how is that not in direct conflict with the teachings of Luther? He claims we can all do this WITHOUT the laying of hands does he not?

I don’t see why Luther needed to repent. He wanted the catholic church to confess of its wrongdoings. There were some corrupt popes and unscriptual practices such as sale of indulgences. I think it was the catholic church that needed to repent. It had strayed from what Christ had taught and grew too wealthy and thus oppressed the poor. Luther who had been a monk for so long and then made a priest never found peace with God nor peace over his sinfulness during this time. He whipped himself daily and found self mutilation barbaric. It wasn’t until he understood God’s grace and that it is a free gift, that he found peace.

 

[rinnie]

It would seem that if Judas had repented. he wouldn’t have lost hope and killed himself.

Yes it would seem. But I don’t know. I am not sure what the official Church teaching is on this, something I will have to look up

 

[rinnie]

I don’t see why Luther needed to repent. He wanted the catholic church to confess of its wrongdoings. There were some corrupt popes and unscriptual practices such as sale of indulgences. I think it was the catholic church that needed to repent. It had strayed from what Christ had taught and grew too wealthy and thus oppressed the poor. Luther who had been a monk for so long and then made a priest never found peace with God nor peace over his sinfulness during this time. He whipped himself daily and found self mutilation barbaric. It wasn’t until he understood God’s grace and that it is a free gift, that he found peace.

I guess that is where we disagree. I feel everyone of Us should have to repent. And Jesus teaches us that too.

Now you said that the CC strayed from what Christ taught. Could you show mea teaching that the CC strayed from? Because if you are correct and the CC strayed from wht Christ taught then the Holy Spirt failed and according to the words of Jesus Christ that is not POSSIBLE.

The gates of hell will not prevail!! So now how do you explain that teaching from Jesus?

 

[atara]

My friend told me that Luther regretted his actions when he was dying.

 

[rinnie]

It would seem that if Judas had repented. he wouldn’t have lost hope and killed himself.

Matt 24:3 Judas his betrayer seeing that Jesus had been condemned DEEPLY REGRETTED what he had done, he returned the 30 Pieces of Silver to the Chief Priests saying I have SINNED in betraying inocent blood.

Now was that a confession of his sin? I mean he confessed flat out that he acknowledged his sin, and had regretted it. Is regret the same as remorse? Depends I guess.

Did the actions of Judas show that he was sorry that he did what he did? Why would he deeply regret it if he was not sorry for what he did? Why did he try to undo what he did, if he did not feel he made a grace mistake.

I don’t think the question is if Judas sinned, and gave into the devil, that is quite obvious. But I think the question is did Judas ask Jesus to forgive him, and was he sorry for what he did.

Like I said I dont know. that is one question I cannot figure out.
On one hand I believe he was taken over by the devil, scripture does tell us the devil entered him, but then on the other hand if the devil fully took him over, why did he try to undo what he did. That would not be something the devil would do.