Why I deeply dislike your older boyfriend

[StSentry83]

For some reason, I had a tough time with my reading comprehension for that article. The author does give the preliminary disclaimer that you mentioned, but also goes on to speculate that he thinks she’s stupid, gullible, whatever.

I still don’t see why we would even go to the age thing here. If he’s not treating her as the article supposes he might be, then all of this stuff is irrelevant. If he is, then it ought to be evidenced by actual events, no?

Xantippe:

Both, actually.

How could it be both? Both would mean he both is and isn’t “all that” which, while not getting into the vagueness of that slang phrase, is not possible logically: a thing cannot be A and not A at the same time.

So presuming it is not truthful, why is it that we want to break this relationship up again?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Until my daughter is 18, any older boy (two years older than her) is going to find it hard to her from behind bars for statutory rape. Once she’s 18, she’s free do as she pleases.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I think this is factually correct, but not strategic.

Let me demonstrate.

Pop says: “You as a teen are not ready for that level of serious commitment. No, you are not ‘mature for your age’ and girls do not mature faster than boys, in general they mature differently. You aren’t ready for this, you are still in fact growing and maturing emotionally and psychologically. The older guy is guilty of taking advantage of you and manipulating you, but that is only true because of the above. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”

Smooth Older Guy says: “You’re so special and so mature!”

Who do we think is going to win that one?

That’s why the approach given in the article (he’s not all that) is helpful.

Yeah, attacking the boyfriend has it’s drawbacks as well. Again, some immature females (and males) will stick by the guy(girl) trying to show everyone else how wrong they are about them. It’s love!! You don’t understand!!! You’re ruining my life!! You can’t control me!!

You suggested talking to teenage daughters, having two myself and seen them and their friends go through their high school years, as well as my four sisters and all their friends do the same, I think its well worth discussing with your teens. I don’t know how many times I heard that trope about girls maturing faster and witnessing the actual reality.

They need to understand the con prior to someone pulling it on them. Sadly, if their own parents/authority figures have been telling them this same line- girls mature faster-- they’re more vulnerable to the con.

Kind of like discussing alcohol (and where legal) exposing it to them in a friendly/family setting. Understanding it’s actual effects like reducing inhibitions. Again, worth discussing with boys and girls as it’s a tool used by folks with bad intentions up to and including serial killers.

 

[Xantippe]

For some reason, I had a tough time with my reading comprehension for that article. The author does give the preliminary disclaimer that you mentioned, but also goes on to speculate that he thinks she’s stupid, gullible, whatever.

**There are a million lines that older guys use on young women. “You’re so special,” “You’re so mature,” “You’re not like the other girls,” etc., etc.

Unfortunately, a younger woman or girl does not have the life experience to see 1) that those are lines and 2) that he’s not being respectful and isn’t a safe person to be around and 3) he’s selfish and immature

**
I still don’t see why we would even go to the age thing here. If he’s not treating her as the article supposes he might be, then all of this stuff is irrelevant. If he is, then it ought to be evidenced by actual events, no?

Eh, the problem is that a much younger woman (or girl) won’t have enough life experience to recognize red flags until it’s too late and something really bad has happened.

 

[Xantippe]

They need to understand the con prior to someone pulling it on them.

**Right.

If they’re familiar beforehand with the but you’re special!/you’re so mature!/you’re not like all the other girls lines, it hopefully won’t turn their heads so much. **

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I have been on forums where men say that the older man and younger women is not only good but Biblical as well. Take for example Joseph and Mary. Joseph was in his 30s and Mary was about 14. So a 14 year old girl and a 30 something man is good and Biblical. A man must be older so he can take care of his family while a woman must be younger so she has the freshest supply of eggs, ensuring the healthiest offspring.

For the record this is not my view but some Christian men support this. Women must be married off in their early to midteens. Who cares about education? Their job is to obey their husbands and bear lots of babies.

Don’t get me wrong, I love St Joseph, but I’m mad at Joseph for not being there for Mary when their son was crucified. Again I ask you, how is a man protecting his beloved wife by positioning a large separation in age causing a lengthily widowhood? BVM Mary had to be given to another son to care for her … It makes me so frustrated!!!

Was it Ruth where she took care of her MIL after they both became widows? Oh yea, men always say, “I would die for you” then go off to war and die … But widowhood looks almost twice as painful as death!!! Really, a man doesn’t offer to die (biblically) but technically, each time a women consents to sex, she is agreeing to possible pregnancy, which still today can leAd to death … So women actually are willing to die and live a lonly life alone more than men.

 

[marymary1975]

I like the article. It also rings true to me in many points as I had a relationship with a guy that was about 14 years older than me. I wish I would have read the article back then.

 

[StSentry83]

Eh, the problem is that a much younger woman (or girl) won’t have enough life experience to recognize red flags until it’s too late and something really bad has happened.

So then we are presupposing he’s a jerk without evidence?

 

[marymary1975]

Eh, the problem that a much younger woman (or girl) won’t have enough life experience to recognize red flags until it’s too late and something really bad has happened.

This exactly what happened to me. Too young, too sheltered and too naive to recognize the red flags.

 

[Xantippe]

So then we are presupposing he’s a jerk without evidence?

No, we read articles like this, compare the boyfriend’s behavior to the article, see if it matches, and if he isn’t a manipulative, rape-y, selfish, immature twit, we can continue the relationship if we wish to.

If it matches, we pull ourselves together, seek support from friends and family, and get while the getting’s good.

 

[styrgwillidar]

No, we read articles like this, compare the boyfriend’s behavior to the article, see if it matches, and if he isn’t a manipulative, rape-y, selfish, immature twit, we can continue the relationship if we wish to.

If it matches, we pull ourselves together, seek support from friends and family, and get while the getting’s good.

I don’t think it’s an assumption that a particular guy is a jerk. It’s really more educating folks prior to the situation developing. It’s not just a girl thing, guys get manipulated too. And its very hard once you’re in the relationship to start being objective about it. Especially for young people who have nothing to compare it to. On top of that, so many young people are raised in broken homes and haven’t observed a healthy relationship on a daily basis as they were growing up. They don’t have a norm for what their expectations should be.

You want your daughter to learn not to tolerate bad behavior? Treat her mother with respect at all times, show your love for her. Your daughter will only expect to be treated by a BF/husband as well as she saw you treating your wife. You can prevent a daughter being treated like *&^# by setting a high bar for her boyfriends to reach.

So-- what this does come down to is trying to communicate to young folks with no experience, and who are not mature, lessons about life and people. Things to watch out for before they become emotionally invested in something, where it’s harder to be objective.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think it’s an assumption that a particular guy is a jerk. It’s really more educating folks prior to the situation developing. It’s not just a girl thing, guys get manipulated too. And its very hard once you’re in the relationship to start being objective about it. Especially for young people who have nothing to compare it to. On top of that, so many young people are raised in broken homes and haven’t observed a healthy relationship on a daily basis as they were growing up. They don’t have a norm for what their expectations should be.

You want your daughter to learn not to tolerate bad behavior? Treat her mother with respect at all times, show your love for her. Your daughter will only expect to be treated by a BF/husband as well as she saw you treating your wife. You can prevent a daughter being treated like *&^# by setting a high bar for her boyfriends to reach.

So-- what this does come down to is trying to communicate to young folks with no experience, and who are not mature, lessons about life and people. Things to watch out for before they become emotionally invested in something, where it’s harder to be objective.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe:

I’m writing this specifically to you because I’m wondering what you think they mean by “lower standards”. I’m hoping that isn’t in reference to a young woman who is 18-19-20ish and has made up her mind to be a stay-at-home, maybe even forgoing the idea of a 4-year college education instead of working in feel-good career for 40+ hours a week because it’s expected.

Here are some more thoughts on that:

1. These days a high school diploma by itself is worth almost nothing. There really are some amazing US high schools, so that really isn’t fair to graduates from them, but that’s the deal. I have a couple of relatives who work with remedial community college students, and you really cannot underestimate how little knowledge students bring out of high school. A working knowledge of arithmetic, for instance, is rather a big deal for high school graduates these days (at least in less posh areas).
2. Good jobs for women almost always require at least some college.
3. It does happen that women dive into SAHMing and then eventually decide they want something different or their family needs something different. (I’ve SAHMed for the past 12+ years and would put myself in that category.)
4. Even “just a wife” of a contractor or other small business person could be much more useful to her family if she learned basic bookkeeping. (A lot of hard-working small business people are good at what they do but a mess with the bookkeeping.)
5. My relatives see a lot of non-traditional students at the community college, and it’s really HARD for those students. They have an inadequate K-12 education, they’re trying to do remedial CC work, and meanwhile they’re working and trying to take care of their kids and their homes. As you can imagine, it’s often kind of a disaster. So, I would say there’s a lot to say for doing a lot of school when relatively unencumbered, rather than saving it for the busiest and most responsible time of your life.
6. As Barbie once said, math is hard. It’s a really, really good idea to do as much math as you can when you’re young, because the young brain is much more capable of soaking up math than the older brain. This is important because math skills are often the limiting factor for students with regard to training for careers. I personally last had a math class in 11th grade (it was college algebra/trig) which is now almost a quarter century ago, and I know math is hard, and it’s daunting to think how long ago that was, but there is some confidence in thinking, “I’ve been there, I’ve done it, I could do it again.” If you’ve never actually had any success at math, you can’t say that.
7. These days, all the cool kids are homeschooling. Not having any college is an obstacle to successful homeschooling, especially given my #5.
8. Even non-homeschoolers may find children’s math homework daunting if they don’t have a solid math background. School math these days seems exactly calculated to make everybody (mom, dad and the kids) feel stupid.
9. Forgive me for not having cites so early in the morning, but statistically, married childbearing is much more common among college educated women in the US and divorce is less common than among non-college women. Very young couples in the US divorce much more often than older couples. Hence, encouraging an 18-year-old or 19-year-old woman to marry right away is (at least statistically speaking) risky.
10. Women often meet their future husbands via school or because of school. (I met my own husband in graduate school.) I was talking to an SAHM friend recently that was lamenting her student loans and wishing she hadn’t gone to college. “But then you wouldn’t have met your husband,” I told her, and she said that her husband had said exactly the same thing.

Granted, 4-year college can be expensive and not everybody is cut out for academics, but I would encourage any young woman to do SOMETHING after high school. The average student loan debt among those who borrow for college is now $28k–bad, but not impossible to deal with. Interestingly, 3 out of 10 students graduate without debt, so it’s not impossible.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Well, I’ve experienced it firsthand. It’s actually a little funny (now that I look back at it) about the nonsense some of these women (18-23ish) thought I would perpetually put with. though I’m sure I probably put up with more of it than I should have, actually.

Then I’d really like to hear her perspective! Oh, and I like hearing from you to.

I agree and disagree. **A four-year college education in the West these days is becoming more of a joke unless you’re majoring in a real field that actually can prepare you, otherwise you’re left with a low-paying job PLUS the debt and are worse off than before. **I would never argue that someone should not be prepared. I had a friend who was in her 20s who didn’t have a diploma. She asked me about it, and I said in so many words while she didn’t have anything to prove to me, because I knew she was responsible and capable of holding a decent job (which she was), it’s important to have that piece of paper.

There’s no arguing that. But in some cases, her decision not to work would not be viewed favorably by some, prepared or not.

Well yes…and no.

For the record, I majored in a field that, practically speaking, was quite useless: music. I loved music, and I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing it. There were two minor problems with this plan: first, objectively speaking, I didn’t have the talent, and second, I had no backup plan. Now I did have enough sense to get my first two years done at a community college, so I didn’t have too much debt, though I still have enough that I kick myself to this day for taking out those loans. At the time, I had no guidance whatsoever from anyone about what to do with my life or how to get there, and I was working so much at minimum wage jobs that I didn’t have time to sit down and figure out anything beyond “I don’t want to work 50 hours a week anymore.”

All of that having been said, before I quit my job to become a SAH wife and later mother, I worked in insurance. If I do say so myself, I was pretty good at it, and even got tapped for a promotion as soon as my six-month trial period was up. My degree had zero, nada, zilch to do with my work in insurance, except possibly the skills I learned to avoid vocal fatigue and strain, as I had to speak on the phone a lot. Still, I would never have been considered for that job if I didn’t have a degree. Is that utterly ridiculous? Absolutely! But that’s the way an increasing portion of the world seems to work.

Back when I was in college, I worked retail. No one would be considered for a promotion above supervisor without a degree. It didn’t matter what the degree was in–I had one manager with a degree in Celtic Studies, for the love of all that’s holy, and totally incompetent she was, too–but you had to have one. Been on the job for five years with great managerial talent, a strong drive, and a proven track record in keeping your department above standard? Didn’t matter if you didn’t have that piece of paper. As I said, completely stupid, but still true in two major fields.

 

[SuperLuigi]

You must have mellowed in recent months, because I find it harder and harder to disagree with you (usually)

Wait! Are you saying I wasn’t mellow before? :ehh: I do appreciate this kind of feedback, especially from non-Catholics.

I’m trying to adjust my posting style so it’s better. I think you’ll find we agree at times, in no small part because a lot of your posts I’ve seen in Family Life are well-thought out.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Read the whole thing.

I didn’t click on the link because I’m worried that sites like that have provocative advertising.

I’ll give you some examples from the relationship I had when I was 19 with a 35-year-old guy. He was interesting to me because he was a recent immigrant from a part of the world I was interested in, had had a bunch of experiences (for instance, he was a veteran of the Soviet Afghan War), and he was pretty smart, but:

1. he wasn’t Christian
2. he was sporadically employed
3. he was living with and on his elderly parents
4. he didn’t respect my physical boundaries
5. he expected me, a 19-year-old, to help him do all his resumes and job applications
6. he was divorced
7. he had emigrated to a different continent from where his little boy (7 at the time) was living

I could go on and on, but I think that’s enough to demonstrate how low my standards were at the time.

All of these are classic signs of a VISA scam. Nothing about that surprises me. He wanted to be taken care of.

People much older than you fall for this nonsense all the time.

danielpipes.org/blog/2004/05/advice-to-non-muslim-women-against-marrying

And as a guy, I’ve been through stuff like that as well. Nothing quite like being the guy few girls wanted in high school to having attractive Russian ladies say they love you in the second e-mail.

 

[Xantippe]

All of these are classic signs of a VISA scam. Nothing about that surprises me. He wanted to be taken care of.

**I think they were refugees, actually, and had all appropriate papers, being Soviet Jews (the US Jewish agencies do really good work with their emigrants), but yeah, he did want me to take care of him, which now that I’m a late-30-something, I find ridiculous.

As a late-30-something, the last thing I need is a person in their late teens taking care of me.**

People much older than you fall for this nonsense all the time.

And as a guy, I’ve been through stuff like that as well. Nothing quite like being the guy few girls wanted in high school to having attractive Russian ladies say they love you in the second e-mail.

Hey, I get that on the first email from Russian ladies!

 

[SuperLuigi]

Well yes…and no.

For the record, I majored in a field that, practically speaking, was quite useless: music. I loved music, and I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing it. There were two minor problems with this plan: first, objectively speaking, I didn’t have the talent, and second, I had no backup plan. Now I did have enough sense to get my first two years done at a community college, so I didn’t have too much debt, though I still have enough that I kick myself to this day for taking out those loans. At the time, I had no guidance whatsoever from anyone about what to do with my life or how to get there, and I was working so much at minimum wage jobs that I didn’t have time to sit down and figure out anything beyond “I don’t want to work 50 hours a week anymore.”

All of that having been said, before I quit my job to become a SAH wife and later mother, I worked in insurance. If I do say so myself, I was pretty good at it, and even got tapped for a promotion as soon as my six-month trial period was up. My degree had zero, nada, zilch to do with my work in insurance, except possibly the skills I learned to avoid vocal fatigue and strain, as I had to speak on the phone a lot. Still, I would never have been considered for that job if I didn’t have a degree. Is that utterly ridiculous? Absolutely! But that’s the way an increasing portion of the world seems to work.

Back when I was in college, I worked retail. No one would be considered for a promotion above supervisor without a degree. It didn’t matter what the degree was in–I had one manager with a degree in Celtic Studies, for the love of all that’s holy, and totally incompetent she was, too–but you had to have one. Been on the job for five years with great managerial talent, a strong drive, and a proven track record in keeping your department above standard? Didn’t matter if you didn’t have that piece of paper. As I said, completely stupid, but still true in two major fields.

Well, I agree with the concept of having a degree that Blue-Eyed Lady and Xantippe have already presented. I guess I overlooked the importance of having a back-up plan, like the kids who think they’re headed to the NBA or MLB are told.

I will go deeper here and say that a lot of people probably do not study music or Celtic (ethnic, gender or GLBTQ) studies to work retail. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a retail job AT ALL.

HOWEVER…can you imagine students sitting in a Celtic Studies classroom saying to themselves that their career goal is retail?

So when you add all of this together, it does take serious discernment. Universities should not be telling students in certain programs they’ll be making six figures doing all that they love, unless they are a shoe-in for the next faculty opening. The other problem, though, is the private sector. They seem to have largely bought into the myth that one needs a college degree to do anything. Hence the “you can’t be promoted without a degree” mantra.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I agree with the concept of having a degree that Blue-Eyed Lady and Xantippe have already presented. I guess I overlooked the importance of having a back-up plan, like the kids who think they’re headed to the NBA or MLB are told.

I will go deeper here and say that a lot of people probably do not study music or Celtic (ethnic, gender or GLBTQ) studies to work retail. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a retail job AT ALL.

HOWEVER…can you imagine students sitting in a Celtic Studies classroom saying to themselves that their career goal is retail?

So when you add all of this together, it does take serious discernment. Universities should not be telling students in certain programs they’ll be making six figures doing all that they love, unless they are a shoe-in for the next faculty opening. The other problem, though, is the private sector. They seem to have largely bought into the myth that one needs a college degree to do anything. Hence the “you can’t be promoted without a degree” mantra.

Honestly, humanities professors at non-profit colleges don’t tell anybody that they’re going to make six figures–at least none that I know of. And I bet the Celtic Studies people are almost certainly not doing that. In any case, you’d need a doctorate to teach (even the community colleges more and more want doctorates rather than MAs–yet another example of credential creep).

The most likely to be shady in their promises of high future earnings are for-profit colleges or for-profit vocational programs. (Believe it or not, there are some horror stories involving culinary arts programs.)

I suspect a lot of artsy majors look a lot better once you tack on a business minor (or something along those lines).

(One of my kids has been saying she wants to study art in college, which is concerning, but it might not be that bad combined with either business, communications or some computer stuff.)

 

[SuperLuigi]

Honestly, humanities professors at non-profit colleges don’t tell anybody that they’re going to make six figures–at least none that I know of. And I bet the Celtic Studies people are almost certainly not doing that. In any case, you’d need a doctorate to teach (even the community colleges more and more want doctorates rather than MAs–yet another example of credential creep).

The most likely to be shady in their promises of high future earnings are for-profit colleges or for-profit vocational programs. (Believe it or not, there are some horror stories involving culinary arts programs.)

I suspect a lot of artsy majors look a lot better once you tack on a business minor (or something along those lines).

(One of my kids has been saying she wants to study art in college, which is concerning, but it might not be that bad combined with either business, communications or some computer stuff.)

I had a professor tell me once about non-profits workers making 6 figures. Faculty positions sometimes pay this.

The issue with liberal arts and the humanities is that there are not very many faculty openings.

I think your daughter will be fine if she majors in CS or business and double majors in art, assuming she can pass all of her classes and graduate.

If she’s really talented at art, that’s one thing, but I think you may need to have the “not everyone gets into the MLB/NBA” type of talk if she just wants to do art. :yup: