Why I Didn't Convert to Eastern Orthodoxy

[Bballer32]

Here’s a magazine article that i found that i want my Orthodox and my Catholic brothers in Christ to read and discuss their views of the article. Let’s not get this into a heated debate. Just keep it simple and charitable.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy

 

[Nine_Two]

He went to one ethnically Greek parish, and decided that it didn’t have an open (read Anglo) culture? That’s like going to a Catholic Church in Mexico and deciding it doesn’t have an “open” culture because it isn’t mine.

Unfortunately that is what these stories usually boil down to.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I don’t really know if arguing against an article published by Catholic Answers on CAF is really appropriate. The only thing that I would be willing to write for now is that seeking for silver bullets is not really an apologetic approach which convinces me, because silver bullets are often highly flawed arguments (meant for a “quick win” rather than for debate), and because the silver bullet approach is logically flawed. Even if I were to eliminate every other religion, philosophy, irreligion, etc., except for Orthodoxy, that still would not present to the reader any sort of compelling case for why Orthodoxy is true.

 

[Grailseeker]

I have a great respect for our Eastern Orthodox brethren. It would be a blessing indeed were the rift to be healed. Anyone who has read the “Philokalia”, “The Way of a Pilgrim” (and “The Pilgrim Continues His Way”) or for that matter the words of the “Desert Fathers” cannot fail to appreciate their love of God. I have incorporated their practice of praying the “Jesus Prayer” with every breath (I have a hundred-knot Chotky) and I have Eastern Orthodox icons in my prayer corner. As a Roman Catholic though, my loyalty is first and foremost to the See of Peter. I truly wish we were in full communion with the Orthodox and I believe in working with them (especially through prayer) while we await fuller union. Many of our Eastern brothers and sisters are currently suffering terribly in the middle east and it is our duty to stand by them and provide assistance whenever and wherever possible.

 

[EIF5A]

From what I gather, the Orthodox Church doesn’t subscribe to papal infallibility or papal “authority” over the entire Christendom. Also, the Immaculate Conception, and perhaps the un/leavened bread.

Do you think there would be reunification even without solving these issues?

 

[dzheremi]

He went to one ethnically Greek parish, and decided that it didn’t have an open (read Anglo) culture? That’s like going to a Catholic Church in Mexico and deciding it doesn’t have an “open” culture because it isn’t mine.

Unfortunately that is what these stories usually boil down to.

Exactly. This whole “Orthodox are ‘ethnic’ and closed” idea is really unfortunate and wrong. It has always been the practice of the Orthodox church to worship in the language of the people. This is how we ended up with “ethnic” churches in the first place, as people in India, Greece, Syria, etc. are not English-speaking Americans/Australians/Brits, and ought not to be faulted on that account. When they become so, over time as in various diaspora populations, the churches change to accommodate their shifting demographics, as is right to do. Even when they are not completely or even primarily second-generation non-(‘ethnic’ language)phone, it remains the policy of the churches here in the USA, and around the world, to use the native language of the land. Here at St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Church, I am literally the only native English-speaker with no Arabic/Egyptian background, and we still use 80% English, with the Arabic and Coptic parts available in translation (just as the English is available in translation for the people who haven’t mastered it yet). And we often have non-Egyptian visitors (including Anglo-Americans), who if anything are subjected to curiosity and overly friendly welcomes if they are new, rather than closed-off or hostile attitudes (granted, this varies by parish, but the same could be said of any church; people are people, after all).

St. Basil liturgy in English, prayed by the Coptic Orthodox Church in the USA

The same liturgy, also prayed in English, broadcast from Egypt (certainly this is not what a church that is only interested in its own ethnic/cultural heritage would do)

Coptic liturgy in Bolivia (other than the priest, I don’t see any Egyptians there, only Bolivians)

Coptic Orthodox kids in Fiji sing a Fijian hymn (not Egyptians here, either)

And neither are we closed off in our own communities. Witness, for instance, Abba Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church celebrating with the Eritrean Orthodox community in Birmingham at their own request, or the pan-OO concelebrations that happen very regularly, which feature representatives of all the churches.

I know the EO have their own practices that match these in their own communion, and I have seen the good work they have done in parts of sub-Saharan Africa, for but one example. So this idea that Orthodoxy is closed off and ethnic is not sustainable.

I remember one time a few months ago one of our parishioners was complaining that we use too much English, and it’s not fair, and all this kind of stuff. Fr. Marcus, an Egyptian through and through, looked at the complaining man and asked “Do you think you are in an Arabic country?” “No.” “Okay, so you know America is not an Arabic-speaking country?” “Of course, abouna…” “And you still came here anyway! God bless you. So we will use the language that is here, because you’re not the only one who should be so blessed.” That was the last time that man complained to Father about that.

^ This is Orthodoxy, too.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

He went to one ethnically Greek parish, and decided that it didn’t have an open (read Anglo) culture? That’s like going to a Catholic Church in Mexico and deciding it doesn’t have an “open” culture because it isn’t mine.

Unfortunately that is what these stories usually boil down to.

I think you missed the part where the author said he was in Australia, and everything was in Greek, and the parishioners were all ethnic Greeks. Not at all the same as what you are saying.

It was an enlightening article. Until now, I didn’t realize that the Orthodox flat out reject the See of St. Peter as either necessary or sufficient. I have noticed that lately we have more and more disagreements with the Orthodox rather than less.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t really know if arguing against an article published by Catholic Answers on CAF is really appropriate. The only thing that I would be willing to write for now is that seeking for silver bullets is not really an apologetic approach which convinces me, because silver bullets are often highly flawed arguments (meant for a “quick win” rather than for debate), and because the silver bullet approach is logically flawed. Even if I were to eliminate every other religion, philosophy, irreligion, etc., except for Orthodoxy, that still would not present to the reader any sort of compelling case for why Orthodoxy is true.

Does the “silver bullets” approach have a formal name as a recognized fallacy?

 

[dzheremi]

I think you missed the part where the author said he was in Australia, and everything was in Greek, and the parishioners were all ethnic Greeks. Not at all the same as what you are saying.

Just out of curiosity, do you apply this same idea to Latino-majority parishes in the United States? Because the RC church I used to attend, the town it was in was roughly split 50/50 between Latinos and Anglos, and we had two separate masses – one in English for the Anglos, and one in Spanish for the Latinos. Other than myself, I can’t recall there ever being someone of the “other” group at the mass that was not for their cultural group. The two groups not only had different priests to serve each mass (since the Anglo priest couldn’t speak Spanish), but much more worryingly, the sermons preached at each often did not match each other. Is this a bad situation since we were in Northern California, yet everyone was ethnically Latino and everything was in Spanish?

It was an enlightening article. Until now, I didn’t realize that the Orthodox flat out reject the See of St. Peter as either necessary or sufficient. I have noticed that lately we have more and more disagreements with the Orthodox rather than less.

Without arguing over St. Peter, I can only say that your second sentence explains the third.

 

[neokarny]

He went to one ethnically Greek parish, and decided that it didn’t have an open (read Anglo) culture? That’s like going to a Catholic Church in Mexico and deciding it doesn’t have an “open” culture because it isn’t mine.

Unfortunately that is what these stories usually boil down to.

Reminds me of an older Roman Catholic lady that my wife volunteers with. She told us about when she was a child (she’s now in her 80’s), her family would walk about 8 miles to Easter service and actually pass a closer Catholic church on the way to theirs. The reason? Her dad said, “We don’t go to that church - it’s Irish. We’re Germans.” While American (and maybe European) Catholics don’t deal with these strong ethnic problems today (Edit: although it seems I was corrected that they sometimes do by dzheremi), they definitely existed and not peculiar to Orthodoxy.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think you missed the part where the author said he was in Australia, and everything was in Greek, and the parishioners were all ethnic Greeks. Not at all the same as what you are saying.

No, I got that. It is the same thing. The claim that the Catholic Church has a universal culture, and that Orthodoxy is exclusive. There is no universal culture, the only reason people think that is because they’ve found Catholic Churches which match their culture.

The idea that a church has to match ones own culture is preposterous as well, but I’m not going to get into it.

 

[dzheremi]

(Edit: although it seems I was corrected that they sometimes do by dzheremi)

Just to clarify, I don’t think the situation that existed back home when I was still RC is necessarily a problem as far as the existence of two communities is concerned (other parts of it certainly were a problem, like how the sermons sometimes were completely unrelated to each other). I mean, if the liturgy is about worshiping God then it is right that the people be provided with a priest who actually speaks their language. My point was rather than if the situation that can be found in Orthodox churches whereby the ethnicity/culture/language of the people does not match that of the surrounding wider society (e.g., they’re in Australia, but the people are all Greeks and everything is in Greek) is a problem for Orthodoxy according to RCs, then certainly the exact same situation (e.g., they’re in America, but the people are all Latinos and everything is in Spanish) should be a problem for RCs, too, but apparently it isn’t or else they wouldn’t be doing that.

For whatever it is worth, it seems that the Orthodox are at least working at these problems. I don’t think you’d find anyone who would say that it is a good thing if the majority of their new country’s population feels put off by the way they worship, but at the same time we do not do as we do necessarily to make people who are upset or nervous about being around non-them people comfortable. If there truly is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, then you have to be willing to meet each other somewhere in the middle, so that you are not leaving out those who have not yet adapted to the new culture (usually the oldest of the congregation), nor alienating those for whom the new culture is the primary one (the ‘hyphenated’ children of immigrant parents, as well as folks like me who were never in the ‘diaspora’ to begin with). It is definitely a challenge, and someone is always bound to have some problem with whatever is tried, but we’re up for challenges, and nobody’s complaining one way or the other is going to weaken the commitment of the Orthodox to living out their thoroughly Catholic faith in every culture and every location in the world. We can get translators for languages we don’t know, and there already exist many good translations of Orthodox material thanks to the work that has been done already on behalf of the Church in the new world, so I think articles like the one in the OP will only become more and more irrelevant and wrong as time goes on.

(Also: I’m an American, and I can chant in Coptic without having to pretend that I’m Egyptian. I mean, it’s good that I don’t have to all the time, but also the worshiper should deal with the reality that if they are joining a church that has its historical roots in a place that isn’t wherever they’re from, it’s probably not going to come pre-made to their comfort. I just spent all of Holy Week pantomiming in conversation, or something like it, with a guest priest from Egypt, Fr. Shenouda, and you know what? It was really refreshing in some ways. Tiring in others, but still…be open to others and their efforts, and they will be open to you in return. We don’t all come from the same place, but that’s okay. We’re much more concerned that we all end up in the same place, anyway.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

He went to one ethnically Greek parish, and decided that it didn’t have an open (read Anglo) culture? That’s like going to a Catholic Church in Mexico and deciding it doesn’t have an “open” culture because it isn’t mine.

Unfortunately that is what these stories usually boil down to.

But that is a real problem that all people from all sides face. EO and ECs face this problem everyday. When I was EC I can’t get around the question, “well, if I’m going to convert to Catholicism, why should I become Ukrainian Catholic instead of Roman Catholic? I’m not Ukrainian.” Now without saying something polemical about the RCC, how do you answer that question?

And it is a problem in Orthodoxy too. That is why our parish is a success story, because we are a non-ethnic parish. People of every skin can feel at home in our parish. And I sympathize with that too, I don’t think I’d be Orthodox today if all I have are ethnic Russian or Ukrainian or Greek parishes. It definitely is a stumbling block to most people. For me, what value is the truth if where I can find the truth excludes me?

 

[ConstantineTG]

No, I got that. It is the same thing. The claim that the Catholic Church has a universal culture, and that Orthodoxy is exclusive. There is no universal culture, the only reason people think that is because they’ve found Catholic Churches which match their culture.

The idea that a church has to match ones own culture is preposterous as well, but I’m not going to get into it.

Spot on. Coming from a predominantly Roman Catholic country, I can say that Roman Catholicism in North America is nowhere the same as Roman Catholicism in the Philippines. Sure, the Liturgy is the same, but so many elements of being Roman Catholic is just not there.

 

[ConstantineTG]

From what I gather, the Orthodox Church doesn’t subscribe to papal infallibility or papal “authority” over the entire Christendom. Also, the Immaculate Conception, and perhaps the un/leavened bread.

Do you think there would be reunification even without solving these issues?

And there is a longer list of issues that also needs to be discussed. But that is for another thread.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And for the Nth time, “Catholic” doesn’t mean “universal”, it means “whole”.

 

[tomarin]

Spot on. Coming from a predominantly Roman Catholic country, I can say that Roman Catholicism in North America is nowhere the same as Roman Catholicism in the Philippines. Sure, the Liturgy is the same, but so many elements of being Roman Catholic is just not there.

The elements aren’t there in the Philippines, or aren’t there in North America?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The elements aren’t there in the Philippines, or aren’t there in North America?

I guess depends from which perspective you are looking from. Being Filipino, I can certainly say for myself that what is here in North America is missing or lacking a lot of things. But someone from North America may say the same thing when he/she goes to the Philippines, either we’re weird or completely missed the point.

 

[Robyn_p]

And for the Nth time, “Catholic” doesn’t mean “universal”, it means “whole”.

Yep amen! The Church was Catholic even on day one when it was just a bunch of Jewish guys in Jerusalem.

 

[dzheremi]

either we’re weird or completely missed the point.

Or neither. Catholicism is just different around the world (just like Orthodoxy). My first real experience of Catholicism other than funerals of family and friends was actually in a tiny village in rural Mexico, even though I’m not from there. It was very different than what I subsequently experienced in the RCC in the United States.