Why I Didn't Convert to Eastern Orthodoxy

[ConstantineTG]

Yep. The Church was Catholic even on day one when it was just a bunch of Jewish guys in Jerusalem.

I too didn’t find the articles claim of ethnicity very convincing. But I do think authority matters, which as you said is a whole 'nuther thread.

Yes. I mean I’ve seen people say that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church because she is the one that is truly “universal”, that is found everywhere and is for all. If that reason is true, then it means the true Church did not exist until at least the Age of Exploration when Western European kingdoms expanded their territories via colonization and took the faith with them to all the ends of the earth. So it really is a misunderstanding to think that “catholic” means “universal”. It does not, the Fathers always meant “whole”, that is the complete and entire faith with nothing added or nothing taken away.

 

[tomarin]

I guess depends from which perspective you are looking from. Being Filipino, I can certainly say for myself that what is here in North America is missing or lacking a lot of things. But someone from North America may say the same thing when he/she goes to the Philippines, either we’re weird or completely missed the point.

So the kinds of things you would say are missing in North America would be things like religious processions?

 

[ConstantineTG]

So the kinds of things you would say are missing in North America would be things like religious processions?

There is a culture around the faith that is just not there. Religious processions, other extra-liturgical religious activities. I will say it plainly here, Good Friday is a very boring day in Roman Catholic parishes here. I appreciate a lot the services we’ve had when I was Eastern Catholic, which mirrors the same services we have in the Orthodox Church today. Catholicism in North America, at least by my experience, is just Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass.

 

[Cider]

I’m not sure what this article has to do with Eastern Catholicism, he became a Roman IE Latin Rite Catholic correct? It doesn’t appear he ever considered becoming Eastern Catholic.

I just couldn’t find anything compelling in that article. I think it started off poorly with grandiose claims of uniqueness ( hardly) and then he lists a bunch of things that IMO focus on minor issues and ignores the more important theological differences. I didn’t see anything there that pointed to a true struggle in choosing between the two. He even says that

Constantinople now flashed onto my radar screen as a challenger to Rome.

So Rome was the default from the beginning but hey he’d give the challenger a cursory glance. He even admits that his experience at an Orthodox Church was limited to

a couple of tentative Sunday visits to Greek Orthodox liturgies

One reason for Orthodoxy’s attractiveness back then was simply that, for me, its image remained refreshingly untainted by the emotional anti-Catholic Calvinist prejudices

I was running up against the rather obvious fact that Orthodoxy is, well, not exactly catholic. It lacks the cultural universality and openness, the capacity to provide a true and welcoming home for all the world’s tribes and nations, that is in fact one of the four marks of the true Church: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Every word of the liturgies I attended in Sydney—including the Scripture readings and preaching—was in Greek, of which I understood absolutely nothing.

He is a Latin Rite priest who happened to convert after Vatican II. So does he think the Catholic Church prior to V II wasn’t Catholic because the mass was in Latin and apparently he’d have had to learn the language then?

At this point, there is no reason for me to even consider his other various arguments as he has already set it up to go the way he wanted.

 

[josephback]

I think you missed the part where the author said he was in Australia, and everything was in Greek, and the parishioners were all ethnic Greeks. Not at all the same as what you are saying.

It was an enlightening article. Until now, I didn’t realize that the Orthodox flat out reject the See of St. Peter as either necessary or sufficient. I have noticed that lately we have more and more disagreements with the Orthodox rather than less.

To my understanding they interpret the question of “who is peter?” a bit different. The reason I decided against becoming Orthodox is doubts regarding their rejection of the papal claims. If there isn’t some truth to them(the claims)and papal universal jurisdiction really is an innovation, then how and when did it start?

 

[theistgal]

I’m not sure what this article has to do with Eastern Catholicism, he became a Roman IE Latin Rite Catholic correct? It doesn’t appear he ever considered becoming Eastern Catholic.

Thank you! This is what I am wondering too. Is it now OK to post Eastern Orthodox stuff in this forum again? If so, should it be renamed “Eastern Christian”?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The decision to convert is such a complicated one. For example the issue of the Papacy, do we really think we can conclusively give an answer to that today, given the amount of time given to the debate by people smarter than us for well over 1000 years? If they haven’t resolved this issue, how can we? Ultimately we have to make a decision for our own based on our conscience. Also, perhaps the answer lies beyond such issues. To me the biggest thing is my daily spiritual life. I just felt in the praxis of the Orthodox Church, the life they offer to me is the most appealing to get to the path I need to take, which is the path to follow Christ. I’ve had lots of conversations with people from both sides, including priests, when I debated whether I would convert or not. For all the good things Catholicism can offer me, I just don’t see that on the local level. We can talk about how great the Pope is and how he is better than any specific Orthodox bishop, or all of them. But the Pope isn’t here with me everyday. My decision was made based on where God meets me every single day, my everyday life here on where I live. I cannot be concerned about issues with the OCA leadership in Washington DC, or the Pope of Rome who is in Rome, or whatever. I’ve had the best and worst examples thrown at me. One convinced me not to become Orthodox based on issues a certain Orthodox parish has which was similar to my issues with my previous parish. Well, I didn’t move to that Orthodox parish. The one I moved to is awesome. I’ve seen the best and worst of Orthodoxy during my period of discernment, but through prayer and deep thinking, I’ve concluded that my spirituality is best served by this parish I joined with and living the truths which, by my discernment, I found inside the Orthodox Church.

I think it is the same with the guy who wrote the article. You can’t really go beyond what you personally see. We can’t put ourselves in everyone’s shoe. We may criticize it as being shortsighted (I’ve had people criticize me the same way) but if for whatever reason he feels closer to God in Roman Catholicism, God bless him for it. Now I am not saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the same paths to God, that is for another argument, but for all the truths of one side, say Orthodoxy in this case, what is the value of those truths if it does not speak to the person seeking the truth. My guess here is this, God will not take this against someone who chooses a religion based on genuine love for Him if that person chose the wrong religion. It may be, by my own opinion, a point against those who has the truth but didn’t do a good job of bringing the truth to other people. This is why St.Peter said (or was it St. Paul or St. James, I forget) that we shouldn’t all be teachers. Teachers will be judged harsher than the rest. That is because a lot rests on their shoulders and that they can lead people down the wrong path. And that is a point against them.

 

[theistgal]

To my understanding they interpret the question of “who is peter?” a bit different. The reason I decided against becoming Orthodox is doubts regarding their rejection of the papal claims. If there isn’t some truth to them(the claims)and papal universal jurisdiction really is an innovation, then how and when did it start?

I think that’s a legitimate reason not to convert. Much less frivolous than just “the few churches I actually attended used Greek instead of English and that just seemed weird so why bother investigating any further?”

 

[ConstantineTG]

If people want to compare, in the Podcast “Illumined Heart” on Ancient Faith Radio, there are 3 interviews with three different people who converted from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy. One is a religious brother, the other is a SSPX trad, I forgot the third one but she’s female.

 

[Seph]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life in Asia; I can express similar feelings and observations to the OP.

For example, in Beijing, a city which has over a dozen Catholic churches (most of which are full to the point of standing room only on Saturdays and Sundays) as well as many Protestant churches, the Eastern Orthodox are non-existent. Almost literally. The only church I know of which offers an Eastern Orthodox liturgy is located in the Russian embassy. Same thing goes for Tokyo, Seoul, etc.

Catholic churches (and Protestant ones too for that matter) seem to be both numerous and filled 95% with local ethnic parishioners- not the case with the Orthodox, even in cities in Northeast China like Haerbin, where you would expect some sort of Orthodox presence among the locals. Eastern Orthodoxy is simply not a global phenomenon.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life in Asia; I can express similar feelings and observations to the OP.

For example, in Beijing, a city which has over a dozen Catholic churches (most of which are full to the point of standing room only on Saturdays and Sundays) as well as many Protestant churches, the Eastern Orthodox are non-existent. Almost literally. The only church I know of which offers an Eastern Orthodox liturgy is located in the Russian embassy. Same thing goes for Tokyo, Seoul, etc.

Catholic churches (and Protestant ones too for that matter) seem to be both numerous and filled 95% with local ethnic parishioners- not the case with the Orthodox, even in cities in Northeast China like Haerbin, where you would expect some sort of Orthodox presence among the locals. Eastern Orthodoxy is simply not a global phenomenon.

Aren’t these Catholic Churches not in communion with Rome anyway? Aren’t the out-in-the-open “Catholic” Church in China the Nationalist Church the Chinese government set up?

Orthodoxy is virtually non-existent there because they were kicked out by the Maoist revolution. One of the most recent saints in the OCA is St. John Maximovitch of Shanghair and San Francisco. He served as bishop of San Francisco at the time of his death, but prior to that he was the bishop in Shanghai up until the expulsion of foreigners by the revolution. He helped facilitate the transfer of the Russians to the Philippines and the US, and he eventually himself ended up in the US.

 

[Nine_Two]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life in Asia; I can express similar feelings and observations to the OP.

For example, in Beijing, a city which has over a dozen Catholic churches (most of which are full to the point of standing room only on Saturdays and Sundays) as well as many Protestant churches, the Eastern Orthodox are non-existent. Almost literally. The only church I know of which offers an Eastern Orthodox liturgy is located in the Russian embassy. Same thing goes for Tokyo, Seoul, etc.

Catholic churches (and Protestant ones too for that matter) seem to be both numerous and filled 95% with local ethnic parishioners- not the case with the Orthodox, even in cities in Northeast China like Haerbin, where you would expect some sort of Orthodox presence among the locals. Eastern Orthodoxy is simply not a global phenomenon.

There was a larger Orthodox presence in those areas at one time. I’m not sure being a victim of the Chinese Communists really counts as a point against us.

 

[Vico]

Here’s a magazine article that i found that i want my Orthodox and my Catholic brothers in Christ to read and discuss their views of the article. Let’s not get this into a heated debate. Just keep it simple and charitable.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy

The author writes: “Perhaps, if more of our Orthodox brethren can come to recognize the underlying logical flaw in their ecclesiology that I have tried to p(name removed by moderator)oint and explain in this article, we shall see more fruitful ecumenical progress toward the restoration of full communion.” I believe this is not in the spirit of the current Catholic-Orthodox dialogue, which seeks to discover The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium. Pope Benedict XVI (Jan 2012):At the 11th Plenary Session that was held in Paphos, Cyprus, in October 2009, the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue with the Orthodox Churches embarked on the examination of a crucial topic in the Dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox: The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium, that is, during the time in which the Christians of East and West lived in full communion. This study will later be extended to the second millennium. I have several times asked Catholics to pray for this delicate and essential dialogue for the whole ecumenical movement. The same Joint Commission also met from 26 to 30 January last year with the Ancient Orthodox Churches of the East (Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian, Armenian). These important initiatives testify that a profound dialogue full of hope is continuing with all the Churches of the East which are not in full communion with Rome, in their own specificity.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100120_en.html

If is also not the norm for a Christian to convert to a church that is of a different tradition than the tradition of the Father or Mother or guardian.

 

[Schism_hater]

I love how the author attributes all the discord in Roman Catholicism to a “temporary situation” while the (lesser) discord in Orthodoxy is because of a “deep seated” problem. I found the article rather foolish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I love how the author attributes all the discord in Roman Catholicism to a “temporary situation” while the (lesser) discord in Orthodoxy is because of a “deep seated” problem. I found the article rather foolish.

Sadly, yes. But most conversion stories are filled with polemics anyway.

 

[tomarin]

There is a culture around the faith that is just not there. Religious processions, other extra-liturgical religious activities. I will say it plainly here, Good Friday is a very boring day in Roman Catholic parishes here. I appreciate a lot the services we’ve had when I was Eastern Catholic, which mirrors the same services we have in the Orthodox Church today. Catholicism in North America, at least by my experience, is just Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass.

It probably lost a lot of its folk traditions in the aftermath of Vatican II. Plus we are outsiders here to some extent.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It probably lost a lot of its folk traditions in the aftermath of Vatican II. Plus we are outsiders here to some extent.

Vatican II has nothing to do with it.

 

[Lester_S]

And for the Nth time, “Catholic” doesn’t mean “universal”, it means “whole”.

+1

 

[Lester_S]

There is a culture around the faith that is just not there. Religious processions, other extra-liturgical religious activities. I will say it plainly here, Good Friday is a very boring day in Roman Catholic parishes here. I appreciate a lot the services we’ve had when I was Eastern Catholic, which mirrors the same services we have in the Orthodox Church today. Catholicism in North America, at least by my experience, is just Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass.

+1.

 

[tomarin]

Vatican II has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps you’re right but it certainly didn’t help the cause of folk religion.