Why I don't trust the bible, can any persuade me to?

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Since Daniel Marsh has done all the really hard work, let me note that the Mithra story post-dates the Resurrection of Jesus.

Abbadon: You have been given some great leads here. Go GET 'EM!
 
Questioning can be a very good and fruitful experience when it comes to faith. Faith, however, needs an honest chance and must be represented fairly; you desire to do this, which is a very good thing.

Here are (hopefully) some answers to some of your questions.

The Bible wasn’t compiled the Rome; the Emperor convened a synod or conference so that a formal canon could be hashed out. The Emperor was tired of dealing with different people who all claimed to have Gospels that held authority. So while the Emperor called the first councils during the the 4th century, he did not decide what made up the Bible; the Christian bishops and churches did. And the way they decided what books were to be included in the canon was not a matter of which books they happened to like; they were explicit that the only books allowed were ones that were either clearly written by an apostle or a direct disciple of an apostle. There are some masterful works, such as the Didache and the Letter of Pope Clement to the Corinthians, which are totally orthodox but were not included in the Bible because they could not be traced back to the apostles. The bishops who compiled the Bible were incredibly concerned with preserving the truth as handed down by the apostles of Jesus - they did not pick certain selections according to their whims. That is a myth that has no support in history.

The thing about prayer to saints is something that I was confronted with when I was thinking about converting to Catholicism from Protestantism. Here’s the thing: would you not have any problem asking your family and friends to pray for you? In Church everyone asks that the members of the community pray for them. Catholics believe that a man or woman can pray to a saint (since you can’t talk to them because they’re dead) and ASK them to pray for you. It’s just like asking your family to pray for you, only the saint is in heaven in the presence of God. Catholics don’t worship saints - saints are like friends who pray with and for them.

One thing that seems to bother you, understandably, is that there seem to be many correlations between Christ’s life and the lives of some other mythical figures in ancient history. But if you look closely, they aren’t as similar as they appear. And even if they are, you assume that Christianity just accumulated all these mythic dimensions over time - that the New Testament developed mythical layers and the real, historical Jesus was thrown out of the picture by fanciful imaginations. But the Gospels are not written like myths - in fact, they are nothing at all like myths. C.S. Lewis, who was the leading authority on medieval English literature and mythology during his life, said that the last thing the Gospels are is mythology.

Also, there is a really great problem in believing that the Gospels are fabrications of the real life of Jesus. The earliest Gospel, Mark, was written around 60-70 AD. That means it was written still within one generation of Jesus’ life; there would still be plenty of people in Palestine who knew him and remembered him. How on earth then could Mark have made up so many details of Jesus’ life so close to the events they describe? Every single historical event that has been turned into myth (such as the myths about Alexander the great, that he was a demigod) has taken hundreds of years for the mythic dimensions to develop. They simply don’t happen in 30 years. And even if someone tried to make up a lot of elements of Jesus’ life, they would have to answer to all the people that were still alive who knew Jesus and his teachings, and would certainly know whether or not he rose from the dead.

Imagine a person, a friend, that you admire very much was just unjustly put to death. Now imagine thirty years later some person comes along and starts saying that your friend never really died but was resurrected. How on earth could you believe it! If this is what happened to Jesus, people from all over Palestine would have rebuked the superstitions and could have possibly even produced the grave which held his body. But no such thing happened anywhere, ever.

One last thing. People believe that a man called Socrates existed based on less than a dozen manuscripts of Plato’s writings (and the copies we have of the writings are from over 1000 years from the events which they describe. We don’t even come close to having the original copies.) But historians will quickly say that Socrates was a historical person and was most likely accurately portrayed by Plato.

Now the New Testament has over 5,000 surviving manuscripts, the earliest being from around AD 150. The Gospels are the most well represented and attested texts in ancient history.

Check out this link: it may help to restore your faith in the Bible’s transmission over time. carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm
 
I don’t have time to write a whole lot, but just one point on the original post. If the census time was dead wrong and off, then why would the earliest Christians, who were quite aware of recent political events, believe in them?
 
As a historian, the fact that their accounts do not jive word for word in parallel accounts makes me believe what was written is accurate history. If those accounts matched word for word I would dismiss them as made up.
That honestly makes so much sense its ridiculous… You have enlightened me one step further… I will reply to as much as i can on the weekend…
 
This is an interesting thread. I think that I will have my son read it to go along with our religious lessons.🙂
 
The Bible contains many fulfilled prophecies and is very accurate. To me, that alone is enough for me to trust the Bible. Actually, I trust the Bible on faith alone. You should too. 👍
Muslims trust the Koran on faith alone. Faith is meaningless. And the prophecies are so ambiguous and easily could have been changed. I still like Nostradamus’ prophecies better, though I don’t believe he actually foresaw the future.
 
For example, was the earth created in six days or six million years? Doesn’t really matter, does it?
Yes, it really does matter. One’s wrong. An omniscient God wouldn’t make that mistake.
What matters is the message of the text that God indeed created it.
How do we know which text to trust without judging them based on the knowledge we have? If I have 5 supposedly “holy” texts in front of me, and some of them claim that there was a sphere of water above are atmosphere, and when it rains God just lets that water fall down, I’m going to have to rule out those texts as being divinely inspired.
Did Jesus feed 4 or 5 thousand people? Does it matter? The point is that he miraculously fed them.
According to a few people he fed thousands. That isn’t very impressive, I could get a couple of my friends to say I flew if I wanted to.
 
Yes, it really does matter. One’s wrong. An omniscient God wouldn’t make that mistake.

How do we know which text to trust without judging them based on the knowledge we have? If I have 5 supposedly “holy” texts in front of me, and some of them claim that there was a sphere of water above are atmosphere, and when it rains God just lets that water fall down, I’m going to have to rule out those texts as being divinely inspired.

According to a few people he fed thousands. That isn’t very impressive, I could get a couple of my friends to say I flew if I wanted to.
You seem committed to avoiding the point that the message of scripture isn’t detracted from by historical inaccuracies; that it isn’t a history textbook, it’s a spiritual guide.

🤷

If you were to read Scripture with an attitude of “Lord, please help me understand this”, I’m certain you’d see it differently. 🙂
 
Re the Code of Hammurabi

The Code was about civic order, not morality. It enforced a strict set of laws that protected the elite. If a slave was murdered, a teeny amount of coins sufficed to repay the master, etc. There was no interest in personal morality.

In fact, the ten commandments signified a revolution in thinking and the very start of morality. At a time when the ancient world saw nothing wrong with disemboweling a thief, when revenge was considered moral, when no one asked questions about sexual behavior irregardless of how it affected others, the ten commandments began the road to human rights, democracy, and individual conscience. God bless, Anne
 
You seem committed to avoiding the point that the message of scripture isn’t detracted from by historical inaccuracies; that it isn’t a history textbook, it’s a spiritual guide.

🤷

If you were to read Scripture with an attitude of “Lord, please help me understand this”, I’m certain you’d see it differently. 🙂
You seem to be committed to avoiding the point that without judging a book based on its historical accuracy, there’s no way of knowing which holy book is right.

Let’s make this simple. Why did you choose the bible as your holy book?
 
About the questions regarding Mithric cult and various Egyptian cults. Many scholars once argued that the early Christians borrowed some of their basic beliefs from various pagan religions.

No scholar anywhere in the world holds these theories today. If you are interested, you can go to a library and look up the History of Religions theory. This theory lasted from the last few decades of the Victorian era through about 1930. Eventually, after thousands of scholars had investigated and published books about it, the results were: there is not a shred of evidence that the early Christians ever borrowed any dogma from the pagans.

There is a good general book on the subject, “The Gospel and the Greeks” by Nash and is available anywhere. For more in depth study, try Edwin Yamauchi and Gunter Wagner.

The Mithric cult is a good example. The cult, as some of the early scholars claimed, had a dying and rising god comparable to Jesus and baptism.

Later research revealed all these claims were untrue. As for the various Egyptian cults, the best book on the subject I have read is “Pauline Baptism and the Pagan Mysteries” by Wagner (I may have got the name wrong, as this is just off the top of my head).

I know that there are various authors today publishing books still claiming Christianity borrowed beliefs from the pagans. Freke and Grady, I think, and Acharya S (I may have not spelled her name correctly) make such claims, but these people are laughed at by regular biblical scholars.

If anything that could be proven about the pagan mystery religions and Christianity you can be sure atheists like Dom Crossan and the Jesus Seminar and Bart Ehrman would be shouting to the rafters about it. The fact that they are not should answer any of your questions about it.

God bless, Anne
 
And people pray to specific saints for things instead of god, for me this is just like praying to Baset instead of
Catholics ask for intercession from the saints, they don’t actually pray to saints. Only God can answer prayer. Would you find it like praying to Baset if you asked your friend to pray for you to God? What is the difference between asking your friend to pray to God for you or you great-grandmother in heaven to pray for you?

God bless, Anne
 
The book was compiled by Rome and some texts were kept, others that they didn’t want, like say a woman writing and keeping a record were stricken only to be found again today.
The books were written by hand, then over time copies were written again and again, things could have changed mistakes could have been made. Perhaps they changed details on purpose. How would anyone really know? Perhaps during the compilation any parts that were far to outlandish like jesus using his powers as a child to play pranks on people like turning them into a goat would have been left out. I honestly don’t trust the Roman Empire at all.
“The book was compiled by Rome”–do you mean the Council of Nicea? The Council of Carthage??

“Some texts were kept, etc.”. Actually, the texts were agreed upon long ago. There were only a few there were disagreements about.

“Perhaps they changed details on purpose” The one time we know a Christian forged a document–the Acts of Paul–he was defrocked for it.

“parts that were far to outlandish like Jesus using his powers as a child” Do you mean the Gospel of Thomas? Nicholas Perrin recently proved it was dated to after 170 AD, at the earliest. So it’s not likely to have any early information about Jesus.

“I honestly don’t trust the Roman Empire” I doubt many of the bishops who staggered their way to the Council of Nicea did either. Most had suffered the loss of a limb or a family member a few years earlier under Diocletian.

Have I helped at all? God bless, Anne
 
You seem to be committed to avoiding the point that without judging a book based on its historical accuracy, there’s no way of knowing which holy book is right.

Let’s make this simple. Why did you choose the bible as your holy book?
I didn’t. It was part of the religion that I was baptised into and have decided to follow. 👍 I believe it to be true, and believe that I am led to believe it to be true not strictly on the basis of my own intellect i.e. having investigated the historicity to my own satisfaction, but on the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, I’m not a Christian because of the Bible; the Bible supports my beliefs as a Christian. Make sense?

If the Holy Spirit had led me to believe the Koran, for example, was the true, inspired, inerrant word of the Almighty, I don’t suppose I’d be on this forum. 😉
 
A few features of all religions are
  • The Sacred Book
  • Rituals
  • Tradition
etc.

We must NOT be so proud as to think that we can live without GOD or religion.

Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI); in his book “JESUS OF NAZARATH” writes (as one “seeking the face of God”) – Chapter 2 “The Temptations of Jesus”…

“…When God is regarded s a secondary matter that can be set aside temporarily or permanently on account of more important things, it is supposedly that theses important things that come to nothing…”

“…The issue is the primacy of God. The issue is acknowledging that he is a reality, that he is the reakuty without which nothing else can e good. History cannot be detached from God and run smoothly on purely material lines. If man’s heart is not good then nothing else can turn out good either….”
 
I didn’t. It was part of the religion that I was baptised into and have decided to follow. 👍 I believe it to be true, and believe that I am led to believe it to be true not strictly on the basis of my own intellect i.e. having investigated the historicity to my own satisfaction, but on the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, I’m not a Christian because of the Bible; the Bible supports my beliefs as a Christian. Make sense?)
Yes, and I figured this was the case. The question is, would you be able to tell the difference between “the Holy Spirit guiding you to the bible” and just having believed since birth that something was true so you never took an objective look at it. I’m sure Muslims really do BELIEVE they have been guided to the Koran by Allah, so how do you know you don’t believe it for the same reason? Have you ever tried to prove it wrong?
 
I want to say thanks for everyone that has posted. And alot of it has been really helpful and lots of great points. There are bits and things i would like to respond to but right now cant really spare it i will send pms and start the thread up again as soon as my holidays come…

Again thanks
 
Okay I decided to respond to someparts, the ones that really intrested me and that i had a response to.
Later research revealed all these claims were untrue. As for the various Egyptian cults, the best book on the subject I have read is “Pauline Baptism and the Pagan Mysteries” by Wagner (I may have got the name wrong, as this is just off the top of my head).
Why do you call them cults? I noticed this through your post that you seem to refrain from calling them religions, which they really are, if you think they are a cult what makes them a cult and what differentiates it from any other religion as a cult?
I know that there are various authors today publishing books still claiming Christianity borrowed beliefs from the pagans. Freke and Grady, I think, and Acharya S (I may have not spelled her name correctly) make such claims, but these people are laughed at by regular biblical scholars.
I had read about it previously, and it came up again in a recent National Geographic documentary and that kinda totaly swayed me. Like they showed their evidence and everything seemed totaly legit…
 
“Perhaps they changed details on purpose” The one time we know a Christian forged a document–the Acts of Paul–he was defrocked for it.
“History shall see me favourably for i intend to write it” I think castro said that, it’s only a lie if the people in power say its a lie
“parts that were far to outlandish like Jesus using his powers as a child” Do you mean the Gospel of Thomas? Nicholas Perrin recently proved it was dated to after 170 AD, at the earliest. So it’s not likely to have any early information about Jesus.
Yea i think so, the ones with jesus using his magical powers as a young child to pull pranks on people. Well aren’t most of the gospels around 100AD anyway?
“I honestly don’t trust the Roman Empire” I doubt many of the bishops who staggered their way to the Council of Nicea did either. Most had suffered the loss of a limb or a family member a few years earlier under Diocletian.
Yea and thats not suspicious to you at all, they go from wanting to kill jesus, crucifying him to throwing others in lion cells etc…

Then conveniently in the bible it seems to show that the jews were to blame. A little bit sus. Theres just manythings sus about it…
 
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