Why I don't trust the bible, can any persuade me to?

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annem said:
Catholics ask for intercession from the saints, they don’t actually pray to saints. Only God can answer prayer. Would you find it like praying to Baset if you asked your friend to pray for you to God? What is the difference between asking your friend to pray to God for you or you great-grandmother in heaven to pray for you?
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Why don’t you just pray to god your self?

I mean it is the catholic concept of god here, he would hear everything equally wouldn’t he?

It’s not like he hears saints more than normal humans is it? Or the more people you have wishing for you the more that god will make it come true?

Well if my friend was Baset then i guess it would, but then Thoth and Anubis would be my freinds to so i wouldn’t really need to pray for anything as i know a god of death (American Gods reference there).
 
richardeekw said:
A few features of all religions are
  • The Sacred Book
  • Rituals
  • Tradition
etc.

We must NOT be so proud as to think that we can live without GOD or religion.

Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI); in his book “JESUS OF NAZARATH” writes (as one “seeking the face of God”) – Chapter 2 “The Temptations of Jesus”…

“…When God is regarded s a secondary matter that can be set aside temporarily or permanently on account of more important things, it is supposedly that theses important things that come to nothing…”

“…The issue is the primacy of God. The issue is acknowledging that he is a reality, that he is the reakuty without which nothing else can e good. History cannot be detached from God and run smoothly on purely material lines. If man’s heart is not good then nothing else can turn out good either….”
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Yes But WHY? Why is catholisisums idea of god right?

I recently watched the nightline debate and saw the athiests get asked. What if there is a god? His first reply was, Okay which god?

Thats the thing what if it was, oh i don’t know the oldest relegion in the world that was right? Or what if all relegions are wrong and our entire understanding of this whole concept of religion is flawed?
 
tigers08 said:
Yes, and I figured this was the case. The question is, would you be able to tell the difference between “the Holy Spirit guiding you to the bible” and just having believed since birth that something was true so you never took an objective look at it. I’m sure Muslims really do BELIEVE they have been guided to the Koran by Allah, so how do you know you don’t believe it for the same reason? Have you ever tried to prove it wrong?
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Good question.

No, I’ve never tried to prove it wrong, but have been taking undergraduate and now graduate classes for about 7 years or so at a Catholic seminary to help me prove it right.

Maybe the same thing? 🤷

I guess we are unable to look at theology with a completely objective viewpoint; we all have some intellectual ‘baggage’.
 
Abbadon said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by annem
Catholics ask for intercession from the saints, they don’t actually pray to saints. Only God can answer prayer. Would you find it like praying to Baset if you asked your friend to pray for you to God? What is the difference between asking your friend to pray to God for you or you great-grandmother in heaven to pray for you?

Why don’t you just pray to god your self?

I mean it is the catholic concept of god here, he would hear everything equally wouldn’t he?

It’s not like he hears saints more than normal humans is it? Or the more people you have wishing for you the more that god will make it come true?
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Saints are members of the Body of Christ who are in heaven, and are “more close” to God, in terms of “righteousness”.

God hears everyone, but those who are more righteous have an advantage in “being heard”.
Well if my friend was Baset then i guess it would, but then Thoth and Anubis would be my freinds to so i wouldn’t really need to pray for anything as i know a god of death (American Gods reference there).
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In Christianity there is only: God (in three persons), angels, humans and everything else.

Other “gods” are fallen angels.

You either worship God, one or more fallen angels, or various other things (human or elsewhat).

To your original question: You must simply believe in God, and in what He tells you about the truthful parts of that which He has revealed to you by the “hand of man”.

One of those things which has been proven for 2000 years to be believable is the bible, which must be known AS INTERPRETED by the Church (Magisterium).

I would suggest you find a good Magisterially approved commentary so that you can have the bible explained to you correctly.

PLEASE look into the Navarre Bible, or more cheaply, the Ignatius Bible.

Once you have the issues that you brought up in your OP explained as they SHOULD be explained, as opposed to trying to figure it out yourself, or “explained” by a bunch of amateurs sitting around a card-table, your presence at the most magnificent table imaginable will be our GREAT JOY!

Looking forward to you at the table! 🙂
 
Newbie2 said:
Good question.

No, I’ve never tried to prove it wrong, but have been taking undergraduate and now graduate classes for about 7 years or so at a Catholic seminary to help me prove it right.

Maybe the same thing? 🤷

I guess we are unable to look at theology with a completely objective viewpoint; we all have some intellectual ‘baggage’.
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At least for the New Testament, the textual evidence is massive. Copious manuscripts exist in many languages – more than for any other ancient text of the period. The texts corroborate one another with remarkable consistency.

One of the great clinchers for the consistency of the OT was the discovery of the Qumran find. Before then, the oldest extant copy of the OT dated from the 10th Century A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a thousand years older and show no substantial differences.

So, as a starting point, the manuscripts are a weighty testament in themselves.
 
With the Bible, I do NOT need to pursuade you to Trust the Bible.
That has been done over the centuries.

It is impossible to accept a Religion without accepting its Sacred Text. - That is a reason why we have “Buffet Christians” today!
Intellectual Pride is a sure way to eternal damnation.

Start with
-Who am I?
-Why am I in this world?
-Where am I going after I die?

When your heart is ready and open; God will find you…and the Truth will set you free… AMEN
 
I started reading this thread, but as I went along, I felt the questions were being very poorly addressed. So, I must admit I did not read all the posts carefully - I simply don’t have the attention span for it.

Atheists make up all sorts of things that sound reasonable. You can google their claims on the internet and find all sorts of Websites to claim their statements are true. But when you actually research the topics, you usually find they have twisted the facts, omitted important details and even outright made up stories.

The fact is, Christians appear to be copying pagans because many Christian Holidays were created to counter immoral practices that were hurting innocent people.

Good Christian leaders wanted to give people an alternative to pagan celebrations and in doing so, they put an end to many pagan practices.

But, in most cases, it is the pagans who modeled their rituals after God’s people.

Another point I would like to make is that the OP seems to accept theory as fact. The big bang and evolution are not based in scientific fact. It’s theory that is being presented as fact.

**The Big Bang is actually impossible according to the laws of physics. ** If you believe the Big Bang, you have actually accepted and believe the impossible!

And finally, you totally miss the point about David and others in the Bible.

If God chose only people who appear to be good and perfect, what hope would the rest of us find?

Do you not see how God took faulted people and changed them? Can you not see how God loves us so much that no matter what we have done in the past, we can repent, be forgiven and give our lives to God?

God will change us! We will be made new - a new creation in Christ Jesus.

The OT isn’t showing us that God favors people who do evil. God is using those people to teach us and to give us hope in His promises.

Think about the Apostle Paul…now consider what God will do for you, if only you place your trust in Him.
 
mercygate said:
At least for the New Testament, the textual evidence is massive. Copious manuscripts exist in many languages – more than for any other ancient text of the period. The texts corroborate one another with remarkable consistency.

One of the great clinchers for the consistency of the OT was the discovery of the Qumran find. Before then, the oldest extant copy of the OT dated from the 10th Century A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a thousand years older and show no substantial differences.

So, as a starting point, the manuscripts are a weighty testament in themselves.
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Not to mention that the manuscripts are dated to within 50-100 years of the actual events, while well-accepted historical documents are much fewer in number and written within 600-900+ years of the events that they describe.

A double standard exists for historical proof of the Gospel documents and other well-accepted history.
 
I have the exact same problems going on in my life and reading your post seems like you were looking into my mind when you wrote them. But through this struggle that Christ has called you to build your faith, here are a few things that have helped me. As far as the Catholic Church using pagen holidays its very simple. These holidays were many times associated with bad ideas and practices. As mentioned, we have no exact date when Christ was born so one had to be picked. What the Church decided to do is use these days to celebrate our most glorious days to override the evilness of these days. It makes perfect sense, since Christ came to destroy evil, we destroyed the evilness those days held by celebrating Christ. Also the Bible does seem at times like the stories are made up and unrealistic, believe me, I know. But once you get passed just reading bits and pieces and actually find all the coralations in the Bible from the old and new testament, it is quite amazing. Now for praying to the saints, this answer I see has been beaten to death but I will use a quick example. If you have a best friend and someone you know needs pray, you simply ask them to pray for your friend. Thats just like the saints. The reason there are so many is because of the life they lived, so we can find a saint who went through the same struggles and say pray for me, please! As Catholics, we believe we are called to Sainthood, no matter who you are. Few actually make it there, so if you look at it that way, its too bad there are so few who make it to sainthood out of the billions who have lived on earth over all these years. The Bible has two books, the old and the new testament. The old testament, known by Jews as the Torah, was and is the current Jewish bible. The new testament was finally put together around the years 397 AD and set as canon. I feel the same way about humans being corrupt but you have to have faith. If you believe in God and the Holy Spirit then you must trust that God wanted us to have the truth and that he would protect against the corruptness of man to give us that truth. Plan and simple. Men spent countless hours to decide which books were inspired by the Holy Spirit and God was with them. Thanks be to God for he is Great and will lead us to his truth and light in the darkness of evil and the corruptness of mankind. And as creation goes, I don’t remember if you asked but I saw someone had an answer so I will elaborate. The Big Bang is possible. That theory states that all matter came from Hydrogen and Helium that exploded to an energy that has never been seen again. Doesn’t that sound awesome! Scientist don’t know how it started, all they believe is that it did, which means there was a starting or driving force. If the Big Bang is true, then that force is God. If thats how God wanted it, thats what would happen.Of course we will probably never know for sure how the universe came to being but the universe is so perfect it must have a creator so perfect and intelligent and that in itself proves the existance of God. I would recommend listening the Dr. Hugh Ross, the beginning of the cosmos. He uses science to prove the Bible as truth and it is fanstatic. Plus you can listen and not have to read, which can be a bonus. All in all, when you look at all other religions of the world, from the beginning of modern man, we have had a sense of spirituality. People have been looking for answers since we can remember. My theory on all other religions that formed before the Catholics is this. They were on the right track. They believed in a savior, with a beautiful mother. They believed in a judgement and salvation but over the years God has made straight the path, just as we must during this Advent season. I hope you spend much time in prayer and ask God why he as put you on the path to struggle and never forget that God did not come to heal the healthy. He uses people who experience evil but repent and turn their life around because they can relate to people that no one else could. Out of all evil, there comes a greater good. If we experience evil and give our lives to Christ, God crys with joy. Many Saints had to struggle in order to be the person for Christ they were intended to be.
 
What about the Eucharist? ?? God still really present among us that should be the hardest pill to swallow. . . Visit

web.mac.com/mr.castillo/Mr._Cs_Virtual_Classroom/The_Classroom/Pages/Reason_for_Faith.html

A video that I made for my 8th graders. Why believe the Gospel? Why believe the textbooks? Why believe the Earth is round?Not very many have gone up into space to see it for themselves? Why? Why? Why? My presentation will help you with this . But seriously the evil past that we sinners who serve Christ and his Church is a pebble compared to the stumbling block which is that GOD, Creator of all the Universe, wants me to eat Him. That is Crazy! When a person makes up a lie they do so to make things easier, because the Truth is hard (on this Rock hard). It is because of the Eucharist that I am Catholic. No scandal around could get me to leave my God in the Eucharist. BUt How do I believe in the Eucharist? !?!?!?! WElll you don’t sit there thinking about it. You go to a Chapel of Perpetual Adoration and ask that brown circle if it is God and waite for a responce. While your at it ask God about the Bible thing. Sitting in front of that brown circle that everyone is worshipping ask God if that brown circle bread is really Him and if you should trust the Bible. God bless you and forgive us poor sinners for not becoming the Saints we were created to be.
 
Ginger2 said:
Another point I would like to make is that the OP seems to accept theory as fact. The big bang and evolution are not based in scientific fact. It’s theory that is being presented as fact.

**The Big Bang is actually impossible according to the laws of physics. ** If you believe the Big Bang, you have actually accepted and believe the impossible!
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I don’t know what pages you’ve been googling, but the Big Bang is definitely not impossible according to physics. It’s pretty much the only thing that all theoretical physicists agree on.
 
tigers08 said:
I don’t know what pages you’ve been googling, but the Big Bang is definitely not impossible according to physics. It’s pretty much the only thing that all theoretical physicists agree on.
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Is it the law of thermo dynamics where energy is never lost? Like All the matter in the universe has always been the same constant yet simply changes form. Energy can never be destoryed or created isn’t it something like that?

I think that is what the user before hand is saying the big band doesn;t make sense…

I always thought the universe has always simply existed i don’t see why it needs to be created although most other people seem to disagree with me.
 
showtime1019 said:
BUt How do I believe in the Eucharist? !?!?!?! WElll you don’t sit there thinking about it. You go to a Chapel of Perpetual Adoration and ask that brown circle if it is God and waite for a responce. While your at it ask God about the Bible thing. Sitting in front of that brown circle that everyone is worshipping ask God if that brown circle bread is really Him and if you should trust the Bible. God bless you and forgive us poor sinners for not becoming the Saints we were created to be.
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Amen to that! I had my conversion sitting in front of the Tabernacle. I was asking many of the same questions Abbadon has been asking. I couldn’t seem to make it past those mental hurdles. So I went into my local church and sat in front of the Tabernacle asking for some clarity. That is when I was washed over with the overwhelming sense of PRESENCE. I knew in that moment that Jesus was there and Jesus was God. I still didn’t understand, but I had been given the gift of faith.

A few days later, when going back to the same church, I found a copy of Peter Kreeft’s “Yes or No: Straight Answers to Tough Questions on Christianity” in the church vestibule. I picked it up and began to read. It is written in Socratic dialogue and one of the “characters” was asking the other pretty much every question I had asked myself. Only, through that book, all those questions that were swimming through my head were finally answered.

It has always struck me the order in which this happened. FIRST, I came to believe, THEN I came to understand. it’s as though God wanted me to make the choice for Him solely for His sake and not because I felt compelled by reason alone to do so. I’m sure that this is not the way it works for everyone, but perhaps it is worth asking yourself if this is what God wants of you, Abbadon.

God bless you in your search for truth!
 
tigers08 said:
I don’t know what pages you’ve been googling, but the Big Bang is definitely not impossible according to physics. It’s pretty much the only thing that all theoretical physicists agree on.
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Oh boy!

Most all physicists will agree on the big-bang from several micro-seconds AFTER the actual BANG, but at the “grand unified theory” portion of our program, that bit between “the proposed singularity” and that part where physicists “agree” happened, no one has a clue as to what reality looked like.

The actual “spark” of the big-bang is a matter of faith.

You do have faith in God if you truly believe, with NO basis at all, that “something” lit the fuse of the big-bang, then that “something” is your definition of God.

It’s a rather “minimalistic” definition, but that’s what it is.
 
Abbadon said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers08
I don’t know what pages you’ve been googling, but the Big Bang is definitely not impossible according to physics. It’s pretty much the only thing that all theoretical physicists agree on.

Is it the law of thermo dynamics where energy is never lost? Like All the matter in the universe has always been the same constant yet simply changes form. Energy can never be destoryed or created isn’t it something like that?

I think that is what the user before hand is saying the big band doesn;t make sense…

I always thought the universe has always simply existed i don’t see why it needs to be created although most other people seem to disagree with me.
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Let’s say there’s an undiscovered thermodynamic law which “resets” the universe after entropy has “grayed it out”.

This would solve the “problem” of eternity, as there really would be no reason to consider a “start” or an “end” of the universe (the ALL containing universe and not our “local” universe).

So, go find that law, or assume that others are working on finding it.

But, your choice remains to believe BY FAITH that the universe is “physically” eternal, or to believe BY FAITH that the there is no “physical” eternity to the universe.

In either case you MUST rely on faith.

To bring this back to the purpose of this thread, Since ONLY faith can be the basis of any “ultimate” question, where do you put your faith and why? The answers to those questions inform EVERY behavior that you do as a human being!
 
Science has determined that the universe did not always exist. The universe has a beginning and all things that have a beginning were brought into existance by something else. Nemo Dat Quod Non Habet. In order for us to exist there must be a force that exists infinitely. Their is motion in the universe and we all know from playing dominoes that in order for something to move something has to first move it. In order for their to be a big bang their must be a big banger. Lets say I walk into your house with a flathead screwdriver and start to pluck all the keys off of your keyboard. Most likely you would say or feel something like, “Hey buster what the heck do you think you are doing???” (<<Universal moral law being called in ala C.S. Lewis style). Laws have lawmakers, in this case the Universal Moral Law maker must be all Powerful, all Good, and interested in my individual behaviour. Now what C.S. Lewis missed that is Crucial (ala Athanasius… go with me on this)

We are all guilty of breaking the moral law and even children know that broken laws/rules have penalties or fines.

We need help being good, because no matter how hard I try I keep breaking God’s universal laws.

(ASIDE: All natural desires have an object that satisfies it.
Hunger>food
thirst>Drink
Tired>Sleep
Loneliness>friendship etc. etc. If earth does not satisfy me I must be made for more than this earth. I long for lasting happiness we all do. What good are riches if they don’t bring happiness. Ultimate Happiness= Heaven)

We want eternal life, well God is the only eternal so if I want to have eternal life then I must be like God. And I can’t get to heaven on a rocketship. God put me here so he needs to get me out.

RECAP::::Fines must be paid, Need help being Good, Need to be like God, Need God to come to me.

Well lets see what religion is completely in line with this philosophy… Judeo/Christian, but specifically Catholic.

God comes to man, says you must be perfect like my Heavenly father is perfect, then says take this all of you and eat it and He pays the fine for our sins.

THe Eucharist is the answer to the logical question of how am I going to get to heaven if I need to be like God, be strengthened to avoid sin, make reparation for sin. WOW! You mean when Christ says He is the Truth He really means it. Not only is the Eucharist the stumbling block, the corner stone, but the Key stone on which all things depend. God bless you. If this seemed irrational visit my website www.xrcards.com go to “The Classroom” click on the video presentation reason for Faith. Abbadon the only thing that cannot be determined from human reason is the question concerning Jesus. Is He the Christ? Well He is either the Christ or a lunatic, but if you don’t trust the Bible to tell you the truth about Christ then you can’t trust the Bible to tell you the truth about David and all his sins or any other part of the bible. I think you might be suffering from Pontius Pitus, What is truth? God bless you and love you and may you follow the truth until you recieve its fullness. Remember truth cannot contradict itself.
 
Abbadon said:
Is it the law of thermo dynamics where energy is never lost? Like All the matter in the universe has always been the same constant yet simply changes form. Energy can never be destoryed or created isn’t it something like that?

I think that is what the user before hand is saying the big band doesn;t make sense…

I always thought the universe has always simply existed i don’t see why it needs to be created although most other people seem to disagree with me.
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Well, that’s the conservation of energy, but that’s a law within our universe. I’m not exactly a theoretical physicist, but I doubt the laws of our universe apply when there was no universe. Plus who’s to say that the energy and matter that exploded into being during the big band didn’t come from somewhere else in a multi verse. The point is, just about every reputable physicist in the world says the big bang happened, and I doubt any say its impossible. And it needs to have been created because it’s expanding. Which means at one point it was much smaller. Like pin point small.
 
You do right in not trusting the bible so blindly. In truth, the bible was design to make you THINK. To allow you, the reader, to reach a particular answer to a particular question in a particular time.

In truth, not in theory, any verse, any story in the bible is open to numerous interpretation. And it is no secret that later interpretations of the bible are actually explainations of earlier biblical passages.

The master of this manner of questioning the torah was, of course, the NAZARENE.
 
joseph_virgen said:
You do right in not trusting the bible so blindly. In truth, the bible was design to make you THINK. To allow you, the reader, to reach a particular answer to a particular question in a particular time.
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That is so true! That is why we are instructed to trust God.
 
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