Why I instead of we in the Creed?

[patrick457]

Let us not look at the translation that is the Latin. According to the Original Greek, it is “WE”.

So I stand corrected from my earlier statement.

earlychurchtexts.com/public/nicene_creed.htm

The councils’ text have πιστεύομεν…ὁμολογοῦμεν…προσδοκοῦμεν (we believe…we confess…we await) pisteuomen in the plural, but it is singular (πιστεύω…ὁμολογῶ…προσδοκῶ) in the Liturgy, correct?

 

[Regina_Love]

I was told that the top scholars have rendered a more accurate translation from the original writtings. To hold more closely to the original language the most recent changes were made at Mass.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I learned the Apostles Creed over 60 years ago, well before V II in both English and Latin, as I believe and Credo…
I was never comfortable with “We believe” as well as other questionable liberties taken in the English translation of the Mass. I am so happy that our Bavarian Pope has returned us to what has been for hundreds upon hundreds of years!

 

[patrick457]

Post haec accipiens acolytus unum ex ipsis infantibus masculum, tenens eum in sinistro brachio, ponens manum super caput eius. Et interrogat ei presbyter: Qua lingua confitentur dominum nostrum Iesum Christum? Respondet: Graecae. Iterum dicit presbyter: Adnuntia fidem ipsorum qualiter credunt. Et dicit acolytus symbolum Graecae decantando, tenens manum super caput infantis, in his verbis:

Pisteuo hisena Theon Pathera panhocratoran pyetin uranu kaegis oraton kaepanton kaeauraton. Kae hisena kyrion Ihm Xpm tonion tutheu tonmonogenin tonectupatros genitenta propanton toneonon. Fos ec fotos theon alithin ec theu alithinu, genithenta upyithenta, omoysion tupatri, diutapanta egenonton. Tondihimas tus antrophus kaediatin himeteran soterian kateltonta ecton uranon kae sarcotenta ecpneuma tos agiu kaeMarias tispartenu kae inantropisanta. Staurothenta deyper imon epi Pontio Pilatu kae pathonta kae tapenta, kae anastenta trititi himera kata tas graphas kae anelthonta histus uranus kaekatezomeno endexia tupatros kaepalin ercomenon metadoxis crine zontas kaenecrus utis basilias ucestin thelos. Kae histo pneuma toagion tonkyrion kae zoopyon tonec tu patros emporegomenon ton syn patri kae yion synpros kynumenon kaesyn doxazomen tolalesas dia ton prophiton. Hismian agian catholicin kae apostolocin eclesian. Omologo en baptisma hisapes inamartion. Prosdogo anastas sinnecron kae zoin tumellos tos aeonas Amin.

Fili carissimi: audistis symbolum Graecae, audi et Latinae. Et dicis: Qua lingua confitentur Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum? Respondet: Latinae. Adnuntia fidem ipsorum qualiter credunt. Ponens manum acolytus super caput infantis, et dicit symbolum decantando his verbis:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum dominum Iesum Christum, filium Dei unigenitum, de Patre natum ante omnia saecula; lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, natum non factum, consubstantialem Patris, per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem, descendentem de caelis, et incarnatum de Spiritu Sancto et Maria virgine et humanatum, crucifixum etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato et passum et sepultum, et tesurgentem tertia die secundum scripturas, et ascendentem in caelis, et sedentem ad dexteram Patris, et iterum venturum cum gloria iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritu Sancto, dominum et vivificatorem, ex Patre procedentem, qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratum et conglorificatum, qui locutus est per prophetas. In unam, sanctam, catholicam, et apostolicam ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Spero resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam futuri saeculi. Amen.

===

After this, taking a male child from these children and holding it on his left arm, the acolyte places his hand above it. And the presbyter asks him: “In what language do they confess our Lord Jesus Christ?” The acolyte responds: “In Greek.” The priest speaks again: “Proclaim their faith, just as they believe.” And the acolyte recites the Symbol, singing in Greek, placing his right hand above the head of the child, in these words: Pisteuō eis ena Theon, Patera, pantokratora…

(The presbyter will then say: ) “Beloved brethren; you have heard the Symbol in Greek, hear it also in Latin.” And he will say: “In what language do they confess our Lord Jesus Christ?” The acolyte responds: “In Latin.” (Presbyter: ) “Proclaim their faith, just as they believe.” The acolyte, placing his hand above the head of the child, says the Symbol, singing it in these words: Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium…​

The thing is, Rome only adopted the use of the Creed in the liturgy at a relatively late date (the early 11th century). According to a contemporary account, the Holy Roman Emperor Henry II (1004-1024) was astonished to learn that Roman custom excluded the chanting of the Creed in the Mass. It was explained to him that since the Roman Church had not been infected by any taint of heresy there was no reason to recite it. The emperor did not desist however until he had obtained the consent of the pope to have the Creed sung at public Mass. Benedict VIII (1012-1024) was an able warrior (for instance, he allied himself with the Normans who settled in Italy and orchestrated the defeat of the invading Saracens in Sardinia), but he was not much interested in ecclesiastical affairs. He was in debt to Henry, who helped restore Benedict to his see when the latter was opposed by an antipope, Gregory VI (1012), and thus paid lip service to reform to gain imperial favor. Even so, the account continues, “but whether they still keep up this custom we cannot affirm, because we are not sure.” (!)

 

[grasscutter]

Thanks grasscutter, I am getting the hang of it, thanks for the assist, by the way I am a grass cutter too.

Way cool! Now I have company! Fall cleanup!?! Don’t get me started…

 

[tabycat]

I agree, but must ask why was it changed to “we” for awhile? By the way how do you respond to the posts earlier than the latest post? I am new to this forum today and am still working out the kinks. Thank You for responding.

When I’m responding to a post that is earlier than the lastest post I click on the ‘quote’ in the right hand corner of the post. It will put the erlier post at the top of the box that you respond in. Hope that helps!

 

[mgteich]

Many Americans are not comfortable with the notion that being a Christian at mass is being part of a Community. Individualism is very ingrained.

For much of the Church it is natural to pray as a community each Sunday and affirm what WE believe as Christians.

For those who feel better with “I” because there may be other among them who do not “really believe”, I suggest charity. God will sort it out.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The councils’ text have πιστεύομεν…ὁμολογοῦμεν…προσδοκοῦμεν (we believe…we confess…we await) pisteuomen in the plural, but it is singular (πιστεύω…ὁμολογῶ…προσδοκῶ) in the Liturgy, correct?

So my first comment could be right. The Council has a declaration representative of those in the Council. Us, during the Liturgy, would be uniting ourselves with the Fathers of the Holy Ecumenical Council.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

So my first comment could be right. The Council has a declaration representative of those in the Council. Us, during the Liturgy, would be uniting ourselves with the Fathers of the Holy Ecumenical Council.

In the few Greek Orthodox liturgies I’ve attended in my life (probably five) my recollection is that it’s always been “we” (with the accompanying Greek text being -omen). I’m not sure about Byzantine Catholic liturgies. Perhaps someone could help out with more info.

I think the rationale behind “we” is that we today too are uniting ourselves with that particular statement from that pivotal Council that defined orthodox Christianity so many centuries ago. This isn’t something that “I” came up with.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I was told that the top scholars have rendered a more accurate translation from the original writtings. To hold more closely to the original language the most recent changes were made at Mass.

I think if a student translated dominus vobiscum as “The Lord BE with you” on an exam, I would have to count off.

 

[RyanBlack]

In the few Greek Orthodox liturgies I’ve attended in my life (probably five) my recollection is that it’s always been “we” (with the accompanying Greek text being -omen). I’m not sure about Byzantine Catholic liturgies. Perhaps someone could help out with more info.

I think the rationale behind “we” is that we today too are uniting ourselves with that particular statement from that pivotal Council that defined orthodox Christianity so many centuries ago. This isn’t something that “I” came up with.

In the Ruthenian Church, we sing “I believe.” For me, the reason why it makes sense to say “I believe” has to do with the historical context of creeds as baptismal confessions of faith.

 

[Cavaradossi]

In the few Greek Orthodox liturgies I’ve attended in my life (probably five) my recollection is that it’s always been “we” (with the accompanying Greek text being -omen). I’m not sure about Byzantine Catholic liturgies. Perhaps someone could help out with more info.

I think the rationale behind “we” is that we today too are uniting ourselves with that particular statement from that pivotal Council that defined orthodox Christianity so many centuries ago. This isn’t something that “I” came up with.

That does not seem to match my experience. The Greeks use the singular, pistevo, during the creed. There is even a video of the Patriarch of Constantinople reciting it in the singular. The plural is in the original wording of the creed because it was the confession of faith of many bishops, but in actual liturgical use, it is recited in the singular.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

That does not seem to match my experience. The Greeks use the singular, pistevo, during the creed. There is even a video of the Patriarch of Constantinople reciting it in the singular. The plural is in the original wording of the creed because it was the confession of faith of many bishops, but in actual liturgical use, it is recited in the singular.

I’ll defer to your experience.

 

[patrick457]

In the few Greek Orthodox liturgies I’ve attended in my life (probably five) my recollection is that it’s always been “we” (with the accompanying Greek text being -omen). I’m not sure about Byzantine Catholic liturgies. Perhaps someone could help out with more info.

I think the rationale behind “we” is that we today too are uniting ourselves with that particular statement from that pivotal Council that defined orthodox Christianity so many centuries ago. This isn’t something that “I” came up with.

I haven’t attended a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in person yet, but in all the videos I’ve seen and audio recordings I’ve heard they recite the Creed in the singular. I could only guess, but perhaps that was a different (non-Byzantine) rite (rather unlikely) or someone printed the wrong text.

 

[ProVobis]

I think if a student translated dominus vobiscum as “The Lord BE with you” on an exam, I would have to count off.

Exactly.

The peace of the Lord can be “BE with you” but the Lord Himself “IS with you.”

 

[ProVobis]

Here is how the Mozarabic Creed goes. (I’ve dealt about it in my blog a couple of years ago.)

Crédimus in unum Deum Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem caeli et terrae, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium Conditórem.

Et in unum Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula; Deum ex Deo, Lumen ex Lúmine. Deum verum ex Deo vero; natum non factum, Omoúsion Patri, hoc est, eiúsdem cum Patre substántiae; per quem ómnia facta sunt, quae in caelo, et quae in terra. Qui propter nos hómines, et propter nostram salútem, descendit de caelis, et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Passus sub Póntio Piláto, sepúltus, tértia die resurréxit, ascéndit ad caelos, sedet ad déxteram Dei Patris omnipoténtis. Inde ventúrus est iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, cujus regni non erit finis.

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum vivificatórem, et ex Patre et Fílio procedéntem. Cum Patre et Fílio adorándum et conglorificándum; qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, Cathólicam et Apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confitémur unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Expectámus resurrectiónem mortuórum, et vitam ventúri saeculi.
Amen.

I like the poetry here. The theology seems to be spot on. Thanks.

 

[fniper]

I learned the Apostles Creed over 60 years ago, well before V II in both English and Latin, as I believe and Credo…
I was never comfortable with “We believe” as well as other questionable liberties taken in the English translation of the Mass. I am so happy that our Bavarian Pope has returned us to what has been for hundreds upon hundreds of years!

John Paul ll and Benedict are quite the one two punch. The Holy Spirit works His will through Holy Men such as these. Exposing the unholy spirit which permeates this globalist age with the Truth which unites not with the tactics of compulsion and cultivation of the ego, but with the free speaking of the Good News by the faithful in opposing the lie and the mighty sword of humility. Satan is so easily exposed within the tactics which trap him.

 

[fniper]

I was told that the top scholars have rendered a more accurate translation from the original writtings. To hold more closely to the original language the most recent changes were made at Mass.

Hi Regina - We live in consequential times, each move of the Holy Spirit seemingly countered and counterfieted by those who wish to undermine the One True Holy Church. But the Spirit with the True Power always uses these moments to strengthen and define our Faith, thus the victory is now, has been, and always will be the Holy Spirit’s victory in guiding and protecting the Church Jesus established.

 

[fniper]

Post haec accipiens acolytus unum ex ipsis infantibus masculum, tenens eum in sinistro brachio, ponens manum super caput eius. Et interrogat ei presbyter: Qua lingua confitentur dominum nostrum Iesum Christum? Respondet: Graecae. Iterum dicit presbyter: Adnuntia fidem ipsorum qualiter credunt. Et dicit acolytus symbolum Graecae decantando, tenens manum super caput infantis, in his verbis:

Pisteuo hisena Theon Pathera panhocratoran pyetin uranu kaegis oraton kaepanton kaeauraton. Kae hisena kyrion Ihm Xpm tonion tutheu tonmonogenin tonectupatros genitenta propanton toneonon. Fos ec fotos theon alithin ec theu alithinu, genithenta upyithenta, omoysion tupatri, diutapanta egenonton. Tondihimas tus antrophus kaediatin himeteran soterian kateltonta ecton uranon kae sarcotenta ecpneuma tos agiu kaeMarias tispartenu kae inantropisanta. Staurothenta deyper imon epi Pontio Pilatu kae pathonta kae tapenta, kae anastenta trititi himera kata tas graphas kae anelthonta histus uranus kaekatezomeno endexia tupatros kaepalin ercomenon metadoxis crine zontas kaenecrus utis basilias ucestin thelos. Kae histo pneuma toagion tonkyrion kae zoopyon tonec tu patros emporegomenon ton syn patri kae yion synpros kynumenon kaesyn doxazomen tolalesas dia ton prophiton. Hismian agian catholicin kae apostolocin eclesian. Omologo en baptisma hisapes inamartion. Prosdogo anastas sinnecron kae zoin tumellos tos aeonas Amin.

Fili carissimi: audistis symbolum Graecae, audi et Latinae. Et dicis: Qua lingua confitentur Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum? Respondet: Latinae. Adnuntia fidem ipsorum qualiter credunt. Ponens manum acolytus super caput infantis, et dicit symbolum decantando his verbis:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum dominum Iesum Christum, filium Dei unigenitum, de Patre natum ante omnia saecula; lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, natum non factum, consubstantialem Patris, per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem, descendentem de caelis, et incarnatum de Spiritu Sancto et Maria virgine et humanatum, crucifixum etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato et passum et sepultum, et tesurgentem tertia die secundum scripturas, et ascendentem in caelis, et sedentem ad dexteram Patris, et iterum venturum cum gloria iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritu Sancto, dominum et vivificatorem, ex Patre procedentem, qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratum et conglorificatum, qui locutus est per prophetas. In unam, sanctam, catholicam, et apostolicam ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Spero resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam futuri saeculi. Amen.

===

After this, taking a male child from these children and holding it on his left arm, the acolyte places his hand above it. And the presbyter asks him: “In what language do they confess our Lord Jesus Christ?” The acolyte responds: “In Greek.” The priest speaks again: “Proclaim their faith, just as they believe.” And the acolyte recites the Symbol, singing in Greek, placing his right hand above the head of the child, in these words: Pisteuō eis ena Theon, Patera, pantokratora…

(The presbyter will then say: ) “Beloved brethren; you have heard the Symbol in Greek, hear it also in Latin.” And he will say: “In what language do they confess our Lord Jesus Christ?” The acolyte responds: “In Latin.” (Presbyter: ) “Proclaim their faith, just as they believe.” The acolyte, placing his hand above the head of the child, says the Symbol, singing it in these words: Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium…​

The thing is, Rome only adopted the use of the Creed in the liturgy at a relatively late date (the early 11th century). According to a contemporary account, the Holy Roman Emperor Henry II (1004-1024) was astonished to learn that Roman custom excluded the chanting of the Creed in the Mass. It was explained to him that since the Roman Church had not been infected by any taint of heresy there was no reason to recite it. The emperor did not desist however until he had obtained the consent of the pope to have the Creed sung at public Mass. Benedict VIII (1012-1024) was an able warrior (for instance, he allied himself with the Normans who settled in Italy and orchestrated the defeat of the invading Saracens in Sardinia), but he was not much interested in ecclesiastical affairs. He was in debt to Henry, who helped restore Benedict to his see when the latter was opposed by an antipope, Gregory VI (1012), and thus paid lip service to reform to gain imperial favor. Even so, the account continues, “but whether they still keep up this custom we cannot affirm, because we are not sure.” (!)

I appreciate your scholarship Patrick, I know so little about the history of the Eucharistic Celebration, and I know it is of highest importance in understanding the battles the Church has faced in forming and defining this ritual of Grace. Satan’s unrelenting target. Sometimes the consequence of the Tower of Babel become quite evident when the ministers of the Church confront the task of unifying a Church divided by the meaning of translated words. Thank God for the God who gave His creatures the day of Pentecost and the Power established that day, in the Church Jesus founded to bring us the Sacraments of Salvation.

 

[fniper]

Way cool! Now I have company! Fall cleanup!?! Don’t get me started…

My mower will be humming the next few days, raking leaves is a tiny cross, but cross nonetheless that approaches quickly.