Why I reject fatima

[someperson555]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

 

[thistle]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

Catholics are not required to believe apparitions approved by the Church but you cannot simply dismiss approved ones with hate and hostility!!

 

[someperson555]

Catholics are not required to believe apparitions approved by the Church but you cannot simply dismiss approved ones with hate and hostility!!

Im not hating. Im just cautioning people to not put so much faith into fatima. Sorry.

 

[someperson555]

And id be interested to hear other peoples thoughts. Too

 

[Bob_Crowley]

There were two miracles, not just one. The dancing sun was one of them. The other was the sudden and instantaneous drying of the ground and people’s clothes after hours of rain.

Apparently scientists have calculated the energy required to do that over the area we’re talking about was in the vicinity of a ten megaton nuclear bomb.

There was also the sudden fear which converted atheists who were present.

I have no trouble accepting it all. World War I was in full swing in Western Europe at the very same time, and millions of young men were slaughtering each other. Over what?

Secondly the message was sent to 3 almost illiterate kids. This is in keeping with Christ’s proclamation -

Matthew 11:25 NIV

At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

He didn’t send Mary to the “wise men” who were presiding over the unmitigated killing in the slaughter yards of France and Belgium. He “revealed them to little children.”

That might seem like poor marketing. But let’s take Christ - Who did God choose to be the PR consultants for his birth? A bunch of shepherds, who were the lowest of the low in Jewish society. Who did He use for PR and Marketing as Christ was about to start His ministry? A bit multinational marketing outfit, as befits the Son of God?

Not on your nelly - He preferred to use a weirdo dressed in camel skin, and eating locusts and wild honey - John the Baptist. How’s that to announce the world’s most important ministry?

Fatima is quite in keeping with God’s way of doing things.

Weird and unexpected.

The message called for repentance, or a worse war would happen. It sure did. The young man who was to play the major role in that war was on the Western Front right there and then in 1917 - Adolf Hitler. While God was priming 3 children with His message, the devil was priming a German corporal with his.

 

[someperson555]

There were two miracles, not just one. The dancing sun was one of them. The other was the sudden and instantaneous drying of the ground and people’s clothes after hours of rain.

Apparently scientists have calculated the energy required to do that over the area we’re talking about was in the vicinity of a ten megaton nuclear bomb.

There was also the sudden fear which converted atheists who were present.

I have no trouble accepting it all. World War I was in full swing in Western Europe at the very same time, and millions of young men were slaughtering each other. Over what?

Secondly the message was sent to 3 almost illiterate kids. This is in keeping with Christ’s proclamation -

Matthew 11:25 NIV

He didn’t send Mary to the “wise men” who were presiding over the unmitigated killing in the slaughter yards of France and Belgium. He “revealed them to little children.”

That might seem like poor marketing. But let’s take Christ - Who did God choose to be the PR consultants for his birth? A bunch of shepherds, who were the lowest of the low in Jewish society. Who did He use for PR and Marketing as Christ was about to start His ministry? A bit multinational marketing outfit, as befits the Son of God?

Not on your nelly - He preferred to use a weirdo dressed in camel skin, and eating locusts and wild honey - John the Baptist. How’s that to announce the world’s most important ministry?

Fatima is quite in keeping with God’s way of doing things.

Weird and unexpected.

The message called for repentance, or a worse war would happen. It sure did. The young man who was to play the major role in that war was on the Western Front right there and then in 1917 - Adolf Hitler. While God was priming 3 children with His message, the devil was priming a German corporal with his.

Yes, im familliar with the second part of the alleged miracle. I concede that that really is hard to explain. But dont you suppose it could be just added imbellishment later on when they were retelling the story? The sun part is totally unconvincing because it can be explained by the fact that if you stare into the sun long enough youre going to see those rainbow colors and the sun will appear to zigzag. Go ahead, try staring into your flourescent light and youll see that it leaves an imprint on your retinas for some time afterwards. Now why would the virgin Mary perform such a dubious miracle. Usually when a miracle is performed there is no question that something supernatural occured. Contrast fatima with a REAL marian apparition like that of st bernadette. The blessed virgin told her the location of a spring that she couldn’t have possibly known. And also she revealed to her two articles of faith that would later become dogmas ( immaculate conception). Fatima is nothing of the sort. Its just a group of bored people eager for a miracle who misinterpreted natural phenomena for something supernatural. Even if the ground somehow dried that still doesnt give evidence for any solar activity and its still suspicious that the secrets were revealed AFTER they happened.

 

[Memaw]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

I’m afraid your listening to the wrong ‘people.’ The Church has very thoroughly examined everything about Fatima and found it “Worthy of Belief.” Every Pope since then has spoken very highly about it especially Saint Pope John Paul II, the Great! I have seen an actual copy of the secular paper from Fatima “O’ Secular” and they, the secular people, didn’t have any trouble believing it happened. Our Lady also said in the Bible, that “All generations will call me Blessed.” What would be your response to that?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[JRKH]

One statement in your post is more troubling to me than the others - it is this:
Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle.
Yes this can be a problem…but Fatima is not just “ANY” claim. It is a claim that has been investigated and approved by the Church. Therefore, those who accept Fatima are not just believing blindly. They have a sound and trustworthy basis for that acceptance.

Your objections therefore need to be weighed against the findings of the Church with regards to what occurred at Fatima.

Peace
James

 

[georget]

To those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who don’t none is possible.

 

[amrin]

The miracle of Fatima as with anything to do with faith boils down to the same thing, which is some people can never be convinced even if you delivered them the proof in front of their eyes. Surely you know the old atheist argument “Why doesn’t God Almighty does a booming voice and says something like “I am Here bow down and convert to XYZ religion”?” Well, I know people to whom I asked “Well what if He did would you convert and worship?” “No”, is the constant answer may it be because “I bow down to no one, not even God” or “God doesn’t exist, if that happened it would have been the government or the crazy Pope making up a world wide hoax.”

Having said that, my great grandmother was present at Fatima, and unlike when you look at the sun directly and your eyes start to hurt because it starts burning your retina (that’s why you don’t look into the sun through a telescope), her account was that it didn’t hurt at all, that when the clouds disappeared and Lucia said “Look at the sun” the sun started to move weirdly or “dancing” as you will find it over the internet. She was a religious person, thus she attributed it to God. Some people who she knew that were not all so convinced, became a lot more devout or even converted on the spot. And then there were the people who saw “Nothing” because well let’s be honest here. It suits them better.

Lucia was a consecrated carmelite when she wrote down the secrets requested by her bishop. The enveloped was to opened by 1960, which it is said it was but St John XXIII, thought it was a bad idea to reveal it at the time. Whether you believe the secrets revealed to the world are the real secrets or not it’s a whole different question from whether the Miracle of the Sun happened. The letters are in the Vatican Archives.

Some people say the third secret was not the assassination attempt of St. John Paul II but a warning about the Second Vatican Council which took place in the 1960’s.

 

[amrin]

I have seen an actual copy of the secular paper from Fatima “O’ Secular” and they, the secular people, didn’t have any trouble believing it happened.

The newspaper you are refering to was “O Século” which doesn’t mean Secular but Century. Nonetheless it was indeed a secular newspaper. A bit off topic but the founder of “O Século” was a Grand Master of the Portuguese free Masonry.

 

[CountrySteve]

Im not hating. Im just cautioning people to not put so much faith into fatima. Sorry.

What holy Mother Church has approved; you have no right to put a stumbling block for those who choose to put faith in Fatima.

Pax

 

[Burt_Macklin]

What holy Mother Church has approved; you have no right to put a stumbling block for those who choose to put faith in Fatima.

Pax

Approved apparitions occupy some strange middle ground in my mind. You aren’t required to believe them but you aren’t exactly free to doubt them either. I’d be interested in anyone who could explain what kind of belief we have to have with regards to apparitions the Church as deemed worthy of belief.

 

[thistle]

Approved apparitions occupy some strange middle ground in my mind. You aren’t required to believe them but you aren’t exactly free to doubt them either. I’d be interested in anyone who could explain what kind of belief we have to have with regards to apparitions the Church as deemed worthy of belief.

It is simple. Catholics are free to believe or disbelieve them.

 

[Bookcat]

Unfounded rejection. Based on misunderstanding and misjudgment of events and the Theology involved.

Our Lady of Fatima led and leads people to God. Oh and do you know that Saint Paul in his letters pointed to himself? Told others to imitate him! Why - for the sake of Jesus. It is GOD who wished to further attention to the Mother of Jesus - for the sake of helping others to more purely love God…to stop living in sin but respond to God more like the heart of Mary -which always said yes to God.

And that a persons Father allows something that Mother does not - can be quite sound theology and practice…

The miracle of the Sun dried up the rain soaked ground…and was seen by those who only came to mock the children…not in search of a miracle…

And while one is not obliged to accept a private revelation - one ought to take care what one says about one that has such high approval of the Church …Popes and all.

I will go with the judgement of the Popes …including St. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI (brilliant men within the Office of Peter -both brilliance and authority and holiness).

 

[Memaw]

The newspaper you are refering to was “O Século” which doesn’t mean Secular but Century. Nonetheless it was indeed a secular newspaper. A bit off topic but the founder of “O Século” was a Grand Master of the Portuguese free Masonry.

Thanks for the correction, but my point was that even they saw something extraordinary in what happened. God Bless, memaw

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

"I would like finally to mention another key expression of the “secret” which has become justly famous: “my Immaculate Heart will triumph”. What does this mean? The Heart open to God, purified by contemplation of God, is stronger than guns and weapons of every kind. The fiat of Mary, the word of her heart, has changed the history of the world, because it brought the Saviour into the world—because, thanks to her Yes, God could become man in our world and remains so for all time. The Evil One has power in this world, as we see and experience continually; he has power because our freedom continually lets itself be led away from God. But since God himself took a human heart and has thus steered human freedom towards what is good, the freedom to choose evil no longer has the last word. From that time forth, the word that prevails is this: “In the world you will have tribulation, but take heart; I have overcome the world” (Jn 16:33). The message of Fatima invites us to trust in this promise. "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

"I would just like to recall briefly the most significant point. For one terrible moment, the children were given a vision of hell. They saw the fall of “the souls of poor sinners”. And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation. The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”. To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord? "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

(same document)

 

[someperson555]

The miracle of Fatima as with anything to do with faith boils down to the same thing, which is some people can never be convinced even if you delivered them the proof in front of their eyes. Surely you know the old atheist argument “Why doesn’t God Almighty does a booming voice and says something like “I am Here bow down and convert to XYZ religion”?” Well, I know people to whom I asked “Well what if He did would you convert and worship?” “No”, is the constant answer may it be because “I bow down to no one, not even God” or “God doesn’t exist, if that happened it would have been the government or the crazy Pope making up a world wide hoax.”

Having said that, my great grandmother was present at Fatima, and unlike when you look at the sun directly and your eyes start to hurt because it starts burning your retina (that’s why you don’t look into the sun through a telescope), her account was that it didn’t hurt at all, that when the clouds disappeared and Lucia said “Look at the sun” the sun started to move weirdly or “dancing” as you will find it over the internet. She was a religious person, thus she attributed it to God. Some people who she knew that were not all so convinced, became a lot more devout or even converted on the spot. And then there were the people who saw “Nothing” because well let’s be honest here. It suits them better.

Lucia was a consecrated carmelite when she wrote down the secrets requested by her bishop. The enveloped was to opened by 1960, which it is said it was but St John XXIII, thought it was a bad idea to reveal it at the time. Whether you believe the secrets revealed to the world are the real secrets or not it’s a whole different question from whether the Miracle of the Sun happened. The letters are in the Vatican Archives.

Some people say the third secret was not the assassination attempt of St. John Paul II but a warning about the Second Vatican Council which took place in the 1960’s.

I don’t know. …
I admit there are some details which prevent me from completely scrapping the fatima incident. Such as the dry ground and the effect it seemed to have on the children. I heard that they would refuse food because the vision of hell was so shocking to them.
But it just doesn’t add up for me. Why did the virgin Mary make everyone see different things. Surely she would have known that that would detract from the credibility of the account. Second, I remember early one morning I was walking to work and during my stroll I was admiring the sunrise. I was staring at the sun and guess what. I saw psychedelic rainbow colors like the people reported in fatima and as I stared longer the sun seemed to zigzag as I moved my eyes. So. Dont you think THATS what the spectators at fatima saw?

And I will say again the bible says: " beware of false prophets, you will know them by their fruits". Ask yourself, what are the fruits of fatima? More distrust and conspiracy theories about the church. It only fuels the fire for these ultra trad zealots to remain in their errors. Vatican 2 was a very GOOD and necessary thing. It clarified many of the church’s teaching s and therefore cleared up many misconceptions. Its funny how so many people say I should believe in fatima because the church said its ok yet those very same people vehemently attack Vatican 2. Im sorry but im going to take the word of the church over the words of a phantom any day. Its as the bible says: " if an angel should come down from heaven and teach something other than the word, let him be damned".