Why I reject fatima

[Bookcat]

"I would just like to recall briefly the most significant point. For one terrible moment, the children were given a vision of hell. They saw the fall of “the souls of poor sinners”. And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation. The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”.To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord? "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[christus_vincit]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

Many, many, MANY Catholics - including Saints and Popes - utterly disagree with your cynical and one sided assessment. Particularly, your rant about there being no “Our Lady of this or that” flys in the face of nearly 2,000 years of Catholic tradition. You are in my prayers.

 

[Bookcat]

"I would just like to recall briefly the most significant point. For one terrible moment, the children were given a vision of hell. They saw the fall of “the souls of poor sinners”. And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation. The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”.To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord? "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[someperson555]

"I would just like to recall briefly the most significant point. For one terrible moment, the children were given a vision of hell. They saw the fall of “the souls of poor sinners”. And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation. The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”.To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord? "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Thank you. I will consider your responses.

 

[robwar]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

You have your facts wrong about Lucia. Her mother was the devout one in the family. I think you are relying on rumors and gossip to state that the father was so devout he was mentally ill. I don’t understand why you are claiming the visions and it’s message was damaging to the Church. Asking for prayers and repentance which was the basic message of Fatima isn’t sowing confusion and discord unless people want it to. There is a good book that I recommend you read “Fatima, The Story Behind the Miracles” and the book took a very close look at the lives and their families of the 3 children. It is written by Renzo and Roberto Allegri and interviewed the surviving brother of Jacinta and Francisco. Sr Lucia was not directly interviewed but her nephew who is allowed to still see her was. No one here is going to convince you to believe or not to, that is your choice but before you dismiss this, you really need to get your facts correct about the children and their families.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I love that at a critical time in human history that God intervened in the world. The Church has said it is worthy of belief. 70,000 people gave testimony to something extraordinary. I welcome Fatima with joy and open arms. I thank God for his kindness throughout the centuries and I offer all my joys, sorrows and difficulties for the intention that Our Lady asked for at Fatima. I may not be doing anything extraordinary with my life, but I have my head down working the plow in Our Lord’s fields daily.

Whether you believe the events at Fatima or not, is up to you. However the message that souls need our prayers and sacrifices is timeless and I hope you too are working the fields of the good Lord. However, to come on a Catholic forum and publicly criticize what the Church has said is worthy of belief and try to undermine the faith of little ones is not something I would like to answer for. That’s what the enemies of the Church are busy doing.

 

[robwar]

I love that at a critical time in human history that God intervened in the world. The Church has said it is worthy of belief. 70,000 people gave testimony to something extraordinary. I welcome Fatima with joy and open arms. I thank God for his kindness throughout the centuries and I offer all my joys, sorrows and difficulties for the intention that Our Lady asked for at Fatima. I may not be doing anything extraordinary with my life, but I have my head down working the plow in Our Lord’s fields daily.

Whether you believe the events at Fatima or not, is up to you. However the message that souls need our prayers and sacrifices is timeless and I hope you too are working the fields of the good Lord. However, to come on a Catholic forum and publicly criticize what the Church has said is worthy of belief and try to undermine the faith of little ones is not something I would like to answer for. That’s what the enemies of the Church are busy doing.

That was very beautifully put. I think when one really studies and looks at the lives of the children that were simple shepherds and the difficulties they had afterwards. one begins to realize that this is true and real.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know. …
I admit there are some details which prevent me from completely scrapping the fatima incident. Such as the dry ground and the effect it seemed to have on the children. I heard that they would refuse food because the vision of hell was so shocking to them.
But it just doesn’t add up for me. Why did the virgin Mary make everyone see different things. Surely she would have known that that would detract from the credibility of the account. Second, I remember early one morning I was walking to work and during my stroll I was admiring the sunrise. I was staring at the sun and guess what. I saw psychedelic rainbow colors like the people reported in fatima and as I stared longer the sun seemed to zigzag as I moved my eyes. So. Dont you think THATS what the spectators at fatima saw?

And I will say again the bible says: " beware of false prophets, you will know them by their fruits". Ask yourself, what are the fruits of fatima? More distrust and conspiracy theories about the church. It only fuels the fire for these ultra trad zealots to remain in their errors. Vatican 2 was a very GOOD and necessary thing. It clarified many of the church’s teaching s and therefore cleared up many misconceptions. Its funny how so many people say I should believe in fatima because the church said its ok yet those very same people vehemently attack Vatican 2. Im sorry but im going to take the word of the church over the words of a phantom any day. Its as the bible says: " if an angel should come down from heaven and teach something other than the word, let him be damned".

Bolding mine…

You say that you will take the word of the church over a phantom…Yet you do NOT take the word of the Church in the case of Fatima…(That it is worthy of belief).
How do you reconcile this?

Peace
James

 

[His_helpmeet]

Approved apparitions occupy some strange middle ground in my mind. You aren’t required to believe them but you aren’t exactly free to doubt them either. I’d be interested in anyone who could explain what kind of belief we have to have with regards to apparitions the Church as deemed worthy of belief.

They don’t add to the deposit of faith directly, because divine revelation is complete. That’s why we’re not required to believe that they happened. However, for those who believe, they can be an inspiration for greater devotion.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you. I will consider your responses.

Readers note – he is reviewing now what was noted above from the Cong. for the Doctrine of the Faith. Let us give him time for that - for thus may end the tread and there be no need to further discuss the matter…

 

[seagal]

Interesting theory – thousands of people under the influence of mass hysteria seeing what isn’t real. Atheists use that theory to explain away Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. Are you sure you want to go there?

Another thing, you seem to have a problem with there being different names for Mary. There are different names for Mary because she appeared in different places. She has lots of titles as well (scroll down to the Devotional Titles). They are all the same Blessed Virgin Mary.

As others have said, you are not obliged to believe that Our Lady appeared at Fatima, or anywhere else for that matter. But since the church has deemed it worthy of belief, it would behoove you not to try to convince others that the church is wrong.

 

[tamedlion]

To someperson 555: Don’t take this the wrong way, but if you stare at sun long enough until you see rainbows or the sun dancing then there is something wrong with you. You don’t need theological explanation of the apparition of Fatima, what you need is a large dose of common sense.
Something that is missing a lot at this time in history.

 

[Hans_W]

… Usually when a miracle is performed there is no question that something supernatural occured. Contrast fatima with a REAL marian apparition like that of st bernadette. The blessed virgin told her the location of a spring that she couldn’t have possibly known. And also she revealed to her two articles of faith that would later become dogmas ( immaculate conception). Fatima is nothing of the sort. …

Interesting that you compare the Fatima apparition with Lourdes.

I know very little about Fatima and many other claimed apparitions, but also have my doubts about many of them. Medjugorje comes to mind, of course. But I never doubted Bernadette’s account. As a teenager I read “The Song of Bernadette” and this story has greatly anchored my belief in God.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m curious, OP: are there other Marian apparitions that you accept?

 

[someperson555]

Bolding mine…

You say that you will take the word of the church over a phantom…Yet you do NOT take the word of the Church in the case of Fatima…(That it is worthy of belief).
How do you reconcile this?

Peace
James

When the church deems something " worthy of belief", it is merely stating that that revelation or apparition does not conflict with the core dogmas of the church. ( correct me if I’m wrong)
However yes, I am very skeptical any time I hear about apparitions. especially because there are APPROVED apparitions that CONTRADICT one anot.her.

Heres an example:
Sister ravasio had apparitions of the heavenly father in which he told her that many will be saved ( which I believe. And I will elaborate on this later)

However at fatima the virgin Mary stresses that most will be damned

Now according to the philosophical law of non contradiction they cannot both be right at the same time.

So this is why apparitions are not very credible.

 

[someperson555]

I’m curious, OP: are there other Marian apparitions that you accept?

Ofcourse.
The apparitions at lourdes
The apparitions to st dominic
The apparitions at zeitoun

 

[someperson555]

Interesting theory – thousands of people under the influence of mass hysteria seeing what isn’t real. Atheists use that theory to explain away Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. Are you sure you want to go there?

Another thing, you seem to have a problem with there being different names for Mary. There are different names for Mary because she appeared in different places. She has lots of titles as well (scroll down to the Devotional Titles). They are all the same Blessed Virgin Mary.

As others have said, you are not obliged to believe that Our Lady appeared at Fatima, or anywhere else for that matter. But since the church has deemed it worthy of belief, it would behoove you not to try to convince others that the church is wrong.

Precisely. Especially when numerous people all report seeing different things. The power of suggestion is a very powerful thing. So I guess all those people who see the virgin Mary in their toast have experienced a genuine miracle
I know an old lady at my parish who claims to see her deceased husband and relatives during mass. But she is clearly not normal, you can tell shes highly suggestable and just plain mentally ill. She has an equally wierd old lady friend who claims to be a " sensitive" and that once her dead dog came back to visit her. . I mean COME ON, are you serious? The atheists are right to demand evidence. Look, I think that many times people who claim to have visions are just very imaginitive and depressed and disconnected from life. They crave excitement so they imagine talking to saints and angels with fire and brimstone messages.

 

[robwar]

Precisely. Especially when numerous people all report seeing different things. The power of suggestion is a very powerful thing. So I guess all those people who see the virgin Mary in their toast have experienced a genuine miracle
I know an old lady at my parish who claims to see her deceased husband and relatives during mass. But she is clearly not normal, you can tell shes highly suggestable and just plain mentally ill. She has an equally wierd old lady friend who claims to be a " sensitive" and that once her dead dog came back to visit her. . I mean COME ON, are you serious? The atheists are right to demand evidence. Look, I think that many times people who claim to have visions are just very imaginitive and depressed and disconnected from life. They crave excitement so they imagine talking to saints and angels with fire and brimstone messages.

You are very mocking. The four Gospels themselves describes the same events in different ways. Put 10 blind men around an elephant and ask them to describe what they feel and they will come up with very different descriptions of what they are feeling based on where they are placed around the elephant and all 10 accounts will describe what conflicting parts but it is the same animal, an elephant. You equate people that have had visions as mentally ill. That is a pretty pathetic view and not one that is supported by your own Catholic Church. You have not even shared or explored the visionary’s lives and those that knew them. Instead you make blanket assumptions, accuse those they trust the Church in examining the visions as being too naive. Your own prejudice and lack of effort speak volumes about you.

 

[christus_vincit]

Precisely. Especially when numerous people all report seeing different things. The power of suggestion is a very powerful thing. So I guess all those people who see the virgin Mary in their toast have experienced a genuine miracle
I know an old lady at my parish who claims to see her deceased husband and relatives during mass. But she is clearly not normal, you can tell shes highly suggestable and just plain mentally ill. She has an equally wierd old lady friend who claims to be a " sensitive" and that once her dead dog came back to visit her. . I mean COME ON, are you serious? The atheists are right to demand evidence. Look, I think that many times people who claim to have visions are just very imaginitive and depressed and disconnected from life. They crave excitement so they imagine talking to saints and angels with fire and brimstone messages.

What a terrible thing to say about your elderly fellow parishioners. You are a cynical person. Instead of making fun of this poor soul, perhaps you should get to know her. Her husband is dead after all. She could probably use someone to talk to.

 

[georget]

I love that at a critical time in human history that God intervened in the world. The Church has said it is worthy of belief. 70,000 people gave testimony to something extraordinary. I welcome Fatima with joy and open arms. I thank God for his kindness throughout the centuries and I offer all my joys, sorrows and difficulties for the intention that Our Lady asked for at Fatima. I may not be doing anything extraordinary with my life, but I have my head down working the plow in Our Lord’s fields daily.

Whether you believe the events at Fatima or not, is up to you. However the message that souls need our prayers and sacrifices is timeless and I hope you too are working the fields of the good Lord. However, to come on a Catholic forum and publicly criticize what the Church has said is worthy of belief and try to undermine the faith of little ones is not something I would like to answer for. That’s what the enemies of the Church are busy doing.

God bless you