Why I reject fatima

[EasterBeagle]

You should also consider that the Church investigated it thoroughly for 13 years interviewing hundreds of witnesses before giving that approval.

“Jacinta Marto at age 7 was one of the three original visionaries at Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She was born in 1910 and died in 1920. In both 1935 and 1951 her body was exhumed and in each instance, her body was found to be incorrupt”:

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Private_Revelation_Fatima.htm

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[Mystical_Seeker]

The Church Christ founded said Fatima is worthy of belief.

Jesus Christ did not found a book, He never wrote a thing, He founded a Church.

Also, if Fatima is true, it is a modern-day post-Biblical times manifestation of the power of God.

If the Miracle of the Sun is true, it means God thought it was important enough to do a divine work years removed from parting the Red Sea.

 

[Memaw]

Now you are saying that Fatima is in the Bible?

Seems you find a way to confuse the issue. God Bless. Memaw

 

[Memaw]

No, I’m saying that we should neither be surprised nor anxious that terrible things happen, because a) Jesus told us they would happen, and b) Jesus told us not to be surprised or anxious.

If you think that we can make them not happen through a prayer regimen, then your prayers are stronger than Jesus’s prophecy. But I have no opinion on that because I do not believe my prayers will reverse Jesus’s prophecy.

Don’t you believe in the power of prayer ? Jesus did tell us to “Ask and you will receive!.” I thought you were big on Contemplation. That’s prayer! If God sent Mary to tell us to pray. wouldn’t we be wise to listen to her?? Try contemplating on that for a while. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Path_Finder]

:clapping: Great for civil discourse!

 

[Elena321]

You know what? The more I think about it, the more I am suspicious that some apparitions, are actually binding us to some of the very things Jesus came to free us from. Maybe they didn’t at Fatima, and if the Church says it’s “worthy of belief” then let me hope the Lord has confused the words of so many who have taken these apparitions to behave in ways unlike what the Word says, and the confusion isn’t in the apparition itself. I might ask my wife for help understanding this because something seems seriously wrong. How can Jesus teach us one thing, and then His Mother come and gin us up to do just the opposite? I must be missing something here, that has not yet been brought up on this thread.

I’m curious what others think in response to the above quote?

What I also don’t understand is the apparition stating that her friend would be in Purgatory till the end of the earth?
It’s not a very hope filled message,no?

 

[Path_Finder]

I’m curious what others think in response to the above quote?

What I also don’t understand is the apparition stating that her friend would be in Purgatory till the end of the earth?
It’s not a very hope filled message,no?

Look at it this way, World War II was indeed very bad. Does anyone deny that?

The next month, on July 13, the lady appears again, predicting “another and worse war” (World War II) will happen if the world doesn’t stop sinning.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_Our_Lady_of_Fatima

But to be fair, I’ve always argued about the time-line as well but as people have also pointed out, the Vatican did NOT rush to judgement in this case but investigated it. It was a different time, I guess the message did not get out to the general public or at least, these are aspects of the case that are not clear. The apparitions were approved of course, cerca 1931, 1932, around then.

Still, if one says “not a hope filled message”; I guess it is conceivable that World War II could have been averted; I’d have to read the whole passage for the full context.

I can be skeptical and questioning. However, that is as far as that goes. I will take the word of the Holy See.

 

[Path_Finder]

Fatima was probably of great importance for the time it was in. And still continues to be so.

Let’s not forget, the first foreign Pope in a very long time, from behind the Iron Curtain.

Some of this is covered in the “End Times” thread in the back fence forum of CAF.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=904823&page=31

Other Fatima predictions such as the world would be on the brink of a horrible war and a sign would be “a night illumined by an unknown light” which did happen, January, 1938.

And to a degree, Fatima prophesied the rise of Communism of which many people suffered under. I think that is why Fatima coincided with the fight against Communism. Many people prayed over this and perhaps, all of those prayers helped combat Communism.

Pope John Paul II comes in, by the '90s, the Iron Curtain and USSR fell.

 

[Elena321]

Look at it this way, World War II was indeed very bad. Does anyone deny that?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_Our_Lady_of_Fatima

But to be fair, I’ve always argued about the time-line as well but as people have also pointed out, the Vatican did NOT rush to judgement in this case but investigated it. It was a different time, I guess the message did not get out to the general public or at least, these are aspects of the case that are not clear. The apparitions were approved of course, cerca 1931, 1932, around then.

Still, if one says “not a hope filled message”; I guess it is conceivable that World War II could have been averted; I’d have to read the whole passage for the full context.

I can be skeptical and questioning. However, that is as far as that goes. I will take the word of the Holy See.

True that there is no denying the impact of WW2 and also that many religious people were persecuted due to certain peoples/groups agenda.

I do think Fatima is from a supernatural origin,if not for no other reason then the unlikeliness that peasant children would be aware of world events.
God can tell the future,satan can’t(?) Is that correct?
He can certainly “read the times” and the “mood of the world” etc and predict off that though etc.

 

[Path_Finder]

True that there is no denying the impact of WW2 and also that many religious people were persecuted due to certain peoples/groups agenda.

I do think Fatima is from a supernatural origin,if not for no other reason then the unlikeliness that peasant children would be aware of world events.
God can tell the future,satan can’t(?) Is that correct?
He can certainly “read the times” and the “mood of the world” etc and predict off that though etc.

Again, I’m not sure if the public was always aware of the message of Fatima say, in 1934 for example. It was approved around 1931. Back then, it might not have been as easy to get the message out, the authorities mainly had the message and I’ve got to empathize with them. If one were in the Vatican and they were told all of these things happened, one would want to investigate it thoroughly and be careful in how it was told to the public.

It was a different time, Masses were still in Latin, women wore veils always to church and the men were often in suits. When the world got television on a widespread basis, then, the news seemed to travel better, even with radio it did. Fatima happened largely even before the radio-age I take it.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Again, your projections, saying others have fear and again, no specific examples to back this up.

If I want to interpret the Bible wholly by myself, there are plenty of protestant religions.

Again, your questions can be rephrased, “why pray at all”.

Seems you find a way to confuse the issue. God Bless. Memaw

No, Memaw. It seems Path_Finder has found way to confuse the issue.

Maybe I should say “another way” because it seems to have come to a contest here. I make a simple observation; I don’t believe in it, the Church does not require me to, that should be the end of it – but the More Catholic Than You demons are getting up for a fight. Well I’m going to return the “sucker punch” at least this one more time.

Maybe you guys are having fun beating up on the “astereotypical Catholic” but you’re not giving me any real resistance except to deny that what I’m saying happens, happens. This thread is beginning to exemplify it; I can’t even back out of the conversation now without all kinds of swipes and not people coming at me calling me Protestant for not believing in Fatima when frankly I don’t think they even read the Bible or heed what’s in it if they do, based on the fact we more importance on Fatima than on Jesus’s words. :whacky:

Several of you are illustrating my point right here. Why can’t you just say, “Mystical Seeker it is true the Church doesn’t require that and I see how maybe it can feel like a put down that so many of us insist that you really don’t have a choice or somehow you’re not Catholic Enough”? Maybe that’s because you can’t see the plank in you own eye? Not that I’m asking, not accusing – “if the shoe fits, wear it.”

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

:clapping: Great for civil discourse!

It was my attempt at withdrawing from a discussion that was going nowhere.

You may think you are so much better than me, and a better Catholic, and you have better beliefs, and if you intend to do that, and refuse to accept my personal opinions which DO NOT conflict with the Church teaching on Fatima – contrary to my perception of the attitudes of certain other Fatima-fanatics such as maybe yourself – have any validity, then that’s up to you. It’s not on my hands now because Lord knows I tried to explain it.

My shrug was a sign that it doesn’t matter what I say or how I word it; I will be attacked and from as many sides as it takes until I am put down sufficiently. You are combative and sarcastic toward me, which you have now proven with your sarcasm about “civil discourse” as a disgraceful but actually hilarious example in hypocrisy.

Go ahead and love Fatima and believe in it and do whatever it says you should, while treating me with increasing disrespect. It seems to me, those two things go together much too often when it comes to someone who takes the Church at her word, and the counseling of my pastor, that I neither have to believe in Fatima or say the Rosary.

You apparently are part of the problem I’m talking about; and since you evidently have no intention of hearing or seeing that or even taking my opinions for sincere consideration, then I can hardly wait for your next post of disrespect.

MS

Or maybe I should say: you are doing even better at “civil discourse” than I am. I’ll see your “clap” and raise you two: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[Memaw]

It was my attempt at withdrawing from a discussion that was going nowhere.

You may think you are so much better than me, and a better Catholic, and you have better beliefs, and if you intend to do that, and refuse to accept my personal opinions which DO NOT conflict with the Church teaching on Fatima – contrary to my perception of the attitudes of certain other Fatima-fanatics such as maybe yourself – have any validity, then that’s up to you. It’s not on my hands now because Lord knows I tried to explain it.

My shrug was a sign that it doesn’t matter what I say or how I word it; I will be attacked and from as many sides as it takes until I am put down sufficiently. You are combative and sarcastic toward me, which you have now proven with your sarcasm about “civil discourse” as a disgraceful but actually hilarious example in hypocrisy.

Go ahead and love Fatima and believe in it and do whatever it says you should, while treating me with increasing disrespect. It seems to me, those two things go together much too often when it comes to someone who takes the Church at her word, and the counseling of my pastor, that I neither have to believe in Fatima or say the Rosary.

You apparently are part of the problem I’m talking about; and since you evidently have no intention of hearing or seeing that or even taking my opinions for sincere consideration, then I can hardly wait for your next post of disrespect.

MS

Or maybe I should say: you are doing even better at “civil discourse” than I am. I’ll see your “clap” and raise you two: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I don’t think we are the ones showing disrespect. Seems all the name calling is coming from you. If the shoe fits, wear it! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I don’t think we are the ones showing disrespect. Seems all the name calling is coming from you. If the shoe fits, wear it! God Bless, Memaw

I have them on.

God bless you as well.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Mystical Seeker,

I just wanted to chime in with my support & understanding of your position.
It is actually my position also. I have a tough time with most private revelations, especially Fatima, worthy of belief or not. As far as the Rosary, I do pray it occasionally, but it is not my favorite form of prayer.

I was given some very wise advice many years ago when I came back to the faith, and was beating myself up because I thought to be a “good Catholic” meant that you “had to” pray the Rosary, believe in Fatima, Divine Mercy, etc
"Pray as you can, not as you can’t. What matters is that you pray!! "

That one statement changed my life, and I know no longer engage with people who tell me “you are doing it wrong”!

Peace be with you on your journey.

 

[Path_Finder]

I don’t think we are the ones showing disrespect. Seems all the name calling is coming from you. If the shoe fits, wear it! God Bless, Memaw

Well-said.

And anecdotal information. Saying something like “People were telling me how to pray”, none of this has had any proof like saying the “hype” and unfortunately sounds negative and like a reflection on others.

Might as well just march to one’s own drummer. Questions are not answered anyway.

Something must be causing pangs to those who are so critical that it seems like some are lashing out at those who follow an approved apparition of the Church.

 

[Path_Finder]

Mystical Seeker,

I just wanted to chime in with my support & understanding of your position.
It is actually my position also. I have a tough time with most private revelations, especially Fatima, worthy of belief or not. As far as the Rosary, I do pray it occasionally, but it is not my favorite form of prayer.

I was given some very wise advice many years ago when I came back to the faith, and was beating myself up because I thought to be a “good Catholic” meant that you “had to” pray the Rosary, believe in Fatima, Divine Mercy, etc
"Pray as you can, not as you can’t. What matters is that you pray!! "

That one statement changed my life, and I know no longer engage with people who tell me “you are doing it wrong”!

Peace be with you on your journey.

Thanks for the anecdotal story.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Well-said.

And anecdotal information. Saying something like “People were telling me how to pray”, none of this has had any proof like saying the “hype” and unfortunately sounds negative and like a reflection on others.

Might as well just march to one’s own drummer. Questions are not answered anyway.

Something must be causing pangs to those who are so critical that it seems like some are lashing out at those who follow an approved apparition of the Church.

I was trying to let it go. I even stated as much.

You seem to want to keep it going. Your ego is so important to satisfy that you cannot let it go.

Now you are posting to Memaw, as if I weren’t even there, in order to insult me more.

If you don’t like my being critical, then quit a) writing to Memaw about me as if I weren’t even here, and 2) ignoring the fact that I gave into Memaw.

But I won’t give into you because you will not let it go. Now it’s your turn to either concede or zip it up.

You can say whatever you like to dissociate yourself from and describe me as being in various “out-groups” so that you don’t have to feel like “we are both equally Catholic.”

So you want example? You are one. Look in the mirror. You are the one I am talking about. You think you are better than me because you are either “more informed” or “more enlightened” about Fatima, and further you take from me the choices that the Church gives me, so that you can feel superior.

You, sir or madam, are the problem and you may be my example going forward.

I didn’t really want to call out certain particular personal incidents that happened to me at actual parish meetings because you didn’t know those people. So thank you for stepping up to the task of being the condescending More Catholic Person Than I Am example you’ve been looking for.

I don’t know why i didn’t realize it before. You want an example of Catholic snobbery of type I’m talking about? Reread your own posts in this thread.

MS

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Mystical Seeker,

I just wanted to chime in with my support & understanding of your position.
It is actually my position also. I have a tough time with most private revelations, especially Fatima, worthy of belief or not. As far as the Rosary, I do pray it occasionally, but it is not my favorite form of prayer.

I was given some very wise advice many years ago when I came back to the faith, and was beating myself up because I thought to be a “good Catholic” meant that you “had to” pray the Rosary, believe in Fatima, Divine Mercy, etc
"Pray as you can, not as you can’t. What matters is that you pray!! "

That one statement changed my life, and I know no longer engage with people who tell me “you are doing it wrong”!

Peace be with you on your journey.

Thank you for your support.

Somehow I think for every one of us who speaks up, there are at least a dozen who don’t say anything because it’s so much like spitting into the wind. Or herding cats. Standing up to the More Catholic crowd is worse than proving innocence from heresy. They want to burn you at the stake even though you follow the rules because you didn’t do it their way – or they want to point and say, “THAT person is not a Catholic like I AM a Catholic.”

As for me? This has me charged up. I want to train to be the “district 12” tribute to the Catholic Hunger Games.

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MS

 

[Memaw]

I was trying to let it go. I even stated as much.

You seem to want to keep it going. Your ego is so important to satisfy that you cannot let it go.

Now you are posting to Memaw, as if I weren’t even there, in order to insult me more.

If you don’t like my being critical, then quit a) writing to Memaw about me as if I weren’t even here, and 2) ignoring the fact that I gave into Memaw.

But I won’t give into you because you will not let it go. Now it’s your turn to either concede or zip it up.

You can say whatever you like to dissociate yourself from and describe me as being in various “out-groups” so that you don’t have to feel like “we are both equally Catholic.”

So you want example? You are one. Look in the mirror. You are the one I am talking about. You think you are better than me because you are either “more informed” or “more enlightened” about Fatima, and further you take from me the choices that the Church gives me, so that you can feel superior.

You, sir or madam, are the problem and you may be my example going forward.

I didn’t really want to call out certain particular personal incidents that happened to me at actual parish meetings because you didn’t know those people. So thank you for stepping up to the task of being the condescending More Catholic Person Than I Am example you’ve been looking for.

I don’t know why i didn’t realize it before. You want an example of Catholic snobbery of type I’m talking about? Reread your own posts in this thread.

MS

I would suggest you talk to your parish priest about the “incidents” you had at your parish meetings that turned you so strongly against approved Private Revelations. I don’t think anyone here has tried to say you HAVE to believe them but we may be just expressing why we should believe them if they are approved by the Church. They are safe to believe, like devotion to the Sacred Heart, or Divine Mercy. There is no need for accusations when discussing matters of faith. God Bless, Memaw