Why I reject fatima

[Mystical_Seeker]

I would suggest you talk to your parish priest about the “incidents” you had at your parish meetings that turned you so strongly against approved Private Revelations. I don’t think anyone here has tried to say you HAVE to believe them but we may be just expressing why we should believe them if they are approved by the Church. They are safe to believe, like devotion to the Sacred Heart, or Divine Mercy. There is no need for accusations when discussing matters of faith. God Bless, Memaw

I am not against them. I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusions others come to, but I’m not against them.

What I’m against, is people saying that I am somehow deficient for not believing in something that I don’t have to.

You can believe it if you want. That’s fine. If it means that you have a great focus on sin, you may do it without my joining you. That’s all.

Why can’t I have the same respect? When you prove to me that the Church requires me to believe in it, then I will accept your indication that I am deficient in not doing so. I hereby consider you part of the problem, too. Just because I say I don’t believe something, doesn’t mean I either judge you or exalt myself over you because you do. You are projecting your own condescending attitude to me, it sounds like.

Why don’t you just quit fixing me, and I’ll let you believe what you want to. Quit trying to tell me what I must believe, because I’m certainly not telling you what you can’t.

You are telling me what I “must” believe when the Church doesn’t. Now Stop playing More Catholic Than You, because I love that game and I can hold up my end forever as long as you don’t get too boring.

But please. Can you not see the problem here? Really?

 

[Elena321]

Personally,I thought this thread was a nice civil conversation
Sometimes misinterpretations happen over the internet because we can’t always tell people’s tones in respect to what their saying.
Eg:a thumbs up emoticon for example could be taken as either genuine or sarcastic.
On this thread,it didn’t seem to me that anyone is trying to suggest to be a “proper” Catholic that people must believe in Fatima,but that doesn’t negate the fact that many people in real life did/do have this experience from other Catholics (in their parish or wherever.)

The problem that I still see is that people say others don’t have to believe in this private relevation,but that it is very worthy of belief and highly likely to be true and from God because the Church after investigation has declared it so.
Ok,I understand that,but where the problem comes in is what happens when a Catholic has a different view then what the Fatima children were shown?
Eg:how can there be “room” for a Catholic to believe in hell as a state as opposed to a literal physical burning hell if it contradicts Fatima?
While no one on this thread is directly saying a person must believe in Fatima apparition/relevations ,at the same time some people might feel it’s still implied,because if a person doesn’t, doesn’t it put that person at odds with the Catholic Church?

 

[Tigg]

While no one on this thread is directly saying a person must believe in Fatima apparition/relevations ,at the same time some people might feel it’s still implied,because if a person doesn’t, doesn’t it put that person at odds with the Catholic Church?

No, it does not! Private revelation is given to us for our edification. God continues to speak to us (although there will be no further public revelation.) He does this to enlighten our souls, increase our faith and draw us closer to Him. Church approved private revelation is pure gift from HIM to us. But even the great mystical saints have warned against extraordinary manifestations. St. John of the Cross was one of them and he admonished anyone from seeking signs and wonders, from visions and locutions and other extraordinary phenomenon. The great Desert Fathers spoke of living in the “darkness of faith” - in other words, rely on the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity given to us at our baptism in order to become holy. St. Theresa of Avila spoke the same thing - that when apparitions are genuine (as Fatima is) they can be a source of spiritual enlightenment to the soul properly disposed. But we should never seek them, nor build our entire spiritual life around them, but merely let God use them as they are intended.

Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof. God speaks to them anyway through other means when they assent to the teachings of the Church. (One of those teachings affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.)

I personally find Fatima to be genuine and the rosary has been one of the greatest sources of grace in my life. From that prayer other (and deeper) prayer has developed. And I am consecrated to Our Lady because of all that grace and praise God for what He has done and continues to do for me.

 

[Memaw]

No, it does not! Private revelation is given to us for our edification. God continues to speak to us (although there will be no further public revelation.) He does this to enlighten our souls, increase our faith and draw us closer to Him. Church approved private revelation is pure gift from HIM to us. But even the great mystical saints have warned against extraordinary manifestations. St. John of the Cross was one of them and he admonished anyone from seeking signs and wonders, from visions and locutions and other extraordinary phenomenon. The great Desert Fathers spoke of living in the “darkness of faith” - in other words, rely on the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity given to us at our baptism in order to become holy. St. Theresa of Avila spoke the same thing - that when apparitions are genuine (as Fatima is) they can be a source of spiritual enlightenment to the soul properly disposed. But we should never seek them, nor build our entire spiritual life around them, but merely let God use them as they are intended.

Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof. God speaks to them anyway through other means when they assent to the teachings of the Church. (One of those teachings affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.)

I personally find Fatima to be genuine and the rosary has been one of the greatest sources of grace in my life. From that prayer other (and deeper) prayer has developed. And I am consecrated to Our Lady because of all that grace and praise God for what He has done and continues to do for me.

AMEN, God Bless. Memaw

 

[Mark121359]

No, it does not! Private revelation is given to us for our edification. God continues to speak to us (although there will be no further public revelation.) He does this to enlighten our souls, increase our faith and draw us closer to Him. Church approved private revelation is pure gift from HIM to us. But even the great mystical saints have warned against extraordinary manifestations. St. John of the Cross was one of them and he admonished anyone from seeking signs and wonders, from visions and locutions and other extraordinary phenomenon. The great Desert Fathers spoke of living in the “darkness of faith” - in other words, rely on the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity given to us at our baptism in order to become holy. St. Theresa of Avila spoke the same thing - that when apparitions are genuine (as Fatima is) they can be a source of spiritual enlightenment to the soul properly disposed. But we should never seek them, nor build our entire spiritual life around them, but merely let God use them as they are intended.

Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof. God speaks to them anyway through other means when they assent to the teachings of the Church. (One of those teachings affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.)

I personally find Fatima to be genuine and the rosary has been one of the greatest sources of grace in my life. From that prayer other (and deeper) prayer has developed. And I am consecrated to Our Lady because of all that grace and praise God for what He has done and continues to do for me.

Best post on this thread!!!:tiphat:

Peace, Mark

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

No, it does not! Private revelation is given to us for our edification. God continues to speak to us (although there will be no further public revelation.) He does this to enlighten our souls, increase our faith and draw us closer to Him. Church approved private revelation is pure gift from HIM to us. But even the great mystical saints have warned against extraordinary manifestations. St. John of the Cross was one of them and he admonished anyone from seeking signs and wonders, from visions and locutions and other extraordinary phenomenon. The great Desert Fathers spoke of living in the “darkness of faith” - in other words, rely on the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity given to us at our baptism in order to become holy. St. Theresa of Avila spoke the same thing - that when apparitions are genuine (as Fatima is) they can be a source of spiritual enlightenment to the soul properly disposed. But we should never seek them, nor build our entire spiritual life around them, but merely let God use them as they are intended.

Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof. God speaks to them anyway through other means when they assent to the teachings of the Church. (One of those teachings affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.)

I personally find Fatima to be genuine and the rosary has been one of the greatest sources of grace in my life. From that prayer other (and deeper) prayer has developed. And I am consecrated to Our Lady because of all that grace and praise God for what He has done and continues to do for me.

Best post on this thread!!!:tiphat:

Peace, Mark

 

[Elena321]

No, it does not! Private revelation is given to us for our edification. God continues to speak to us (although there will be no further public revelation.) He does this to enlighten our souls, increase our faith and draw us closer to Him. Church approved private revelation is pure gift from HIM to us. But even the great mystical saints have warned against extraordinary manifestations. St. John of the Cross was one of them and he admonished anyone from seeking signs and wonders, from visions and locutions and other extraordinary phenomenon. The great Desert Fathers spoke of living in the “darkness of faith” - in other words, rely on the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity given to us at our baptism in order to become holy. St. Theresa of Avila spoke the same thing - that when apparitions are genuine (as Fatima is) they can be a source of spiritual enlightenment to the soul properly disposed. But we should never seek them, nor build our entire spiritual life around them, but merely let God use them as they are intended.

Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof. God speaks to them anyway through other means when they assent to the teachings of the Church. (One of those teachings affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.)

I personally find Fatima to be genuine and the rosary has been one of the greatest sources of grace in my life. From that prayer other (and deeper) prayer has developed. And I am consecrated to Our Lady because of all that grace and praise God for what He has done and continues to do for me.

Hi Tiggs,
I’ve glad that this belief and devotion has brought you closer to God.
Perhaps I didn’t phrase my post well.I wasn’t suggesting that the Catholic Church would deem the person who doesn’t believe in apparitions as at odds with the Church.
I’m also aware of saints saying not to seek sign and wonders etc.
What I meant by at odds is just say one Catholic believes in a **literal burning hell ** because they believe in the Fatima apparition as being from God,and another Catholic doesn’t believe in hell as literal burning ,who’s right?
How can there be two beliefs from two Catholics?
Something either is or it isn’t,no?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What I meant by at odds is just say one Catholic believes in a **literal burning hell ** because they believe in the Fatima apparition as being from God,and another Catholic doesn’t believe in hell as literal burning ,who’s right?
How can there be two beliefs from two Catholics?
Something either is or it isn’t,no?

Jesus used the image of weeds being gathered and thrown into the fire. So I don’t see any problems with using this analogy.

But my real question is: who cares? Is anybody going to try to go to hell less, because of “one more extra-gruesome story” they heard about it? Anybody who is more motivated to do good because the “hell” they fear has yet another picture painted upon it making it sound even worse – than I assert that person is not following God at all but it chasing fears and has no part of Jesus’ teachings.

I’m much more interested in learning how to live in the “kingdom” frame of reference that Jesus teaches about. What better can we do for our chances of the afterlife than to live as Jesus taught us now – not behavior contests and moralistic attitude, but a merciful and understanding attitude, with an open mind that doesn’t always assume that the “greatest” is anything but the “servant” and where the “first can be last” and it all somehow makes sense. If Jesus’s “puzzles” don’t make sense, that’s because our human minds have been filled with cultural garbage even from our own leaders and we have designed a world in our mind where anxiety and fear and concern for worldly issues lead the way. That’s why Jesus says He is “in” the world but not “of” the world. We see and hear and feel what we do, with all of whatever happens in the world, but should transcended “worldly” concerns and if we hadn’t, no amount of activity and prayer can substitute for this.

To “hope” for eternal life instead of eternal punishment, and that’s really the whole reason for being Catholic, is the ultimate in Low Expectations for a Christian life, IMO. If that’s all I have to live for it so hope I don’t go to hell, then I wish I were never born at all to have even that possibility. At least if I were aborted, I wouldn’t have had a chance to commit a mortal sin so maybe that would have been best? :whacky:

A Christian life should involve seeking and attaining divine union with God, and the prayer life of a Catholic “should” work toward that, and I can tell you the CCC specifically says that vocal and even meditative prayers don’t get that done.

So again I don’t see a problem with any particular image, because that’s all they are – visions. If it were dogmatic prophecy the Church would not give the option of whether to believe in it.

 

[Tigg]

Hi Tiggs,
I’ve glad that this belief and devotion has brought you closer to God.
Perhaps I didn’t phrase my post well.I wasn’t suggesting that the Catholic Church would deem the person who doesn’t believe in apparitions as at odds with the Church.
I’m also aware of saints saying not to seek sign and wonders etc.
What I meant by at odds is just say one Catholic believes in a **literal burning hell ** because they believe in the Fatima apparition as being from God,and another Catholic doesn’t believe in hell as literal burning ,who’s right?
How can there be two beliefs from two Catholics?
Something either is or it isn’t,no?

Elena:

Fr. Benedict Groeschel had a book out you may want to read on the discernment of apparitions. The name of it is called a Still, Small Voice. He explains it very well that private revelation given to an individual is unique in that although if authentic and classified as truly supernatural by the Church, it nonetheless considers the psychology, common sense and faith of the person receiving the vision. If the apparition is genuine, these factors can still be in conformity with church teaching. I would like to ask you if you care to share with us, why this question of a literal fire is so important to you. To me it is unimportant when considered that *what *we must believe is that it is an absolute state of suffering to be endured forever (whatever that suffering may be.) Is a literal fire any worse than knowing you have been deprived of the presence of God who is our greatest good and the reason we were made? Some theologians have explained it as a “state of being” in which we are totally alienated from all that is good and that hatred, not love is to be experienced.

 

[Tigg]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

You may want to read this article.

Benedict XIV likewise maintains that one may refuse assent to private revelation without direct injury to Catholic faith, as long as he does so, “modestly, not without reason, and without contempt” (71). Modern commentators add that while the freedom remains for a member of the Church to reject a private revelation which has received official ecclesiastical approval, it would at the same time be reprehensible to speak publicly against it.

motherofallpeoples.com/2007/10/private-revelation-discerning-with-the-church-part-i/

 

[someperson555]

Personally, I believe " the christmas day truce" was a greater miracle than fatima.

 

[Elena321]

Elena:

Fr. Benedict Groeschel had a book out you may want to read on the discernment of apparitions. The name of it is called a Still, Small Voice. He explains it very well that private revelation given to an individual is unique in that although if authentic and classified as truly supernatural by the Church, it nonetheless considers the psychology, common sense and faith of the person receiving the vision. If the apparition is genuine, these factors can still be in conformity with church teaching. I would like to ask you if you care to share with us, why this question of a literal fire is so important to you. To me it is unimportant when considered that *what *we must believe is that it is an absolute state of suffering to be endured forever (whatever that suffering may be.) Is a literal fire any worse than knowing you have been deprived of the presence of God who is our greatest good and the reason we were made? Some theologians have explained it as a “state of being” in which we are totally alienated from all that is good and that hatred, not love is to be experienced.

I guess it’s important because I like to know what I believe,why I believe it,and be able to answer “the hard questions” if someone who doesn’t believe in God asks them of me.
Christians,or at least Catholics,often tell them what matters is that we live our lives by loving and serving others.
This is the correct answer,but some people dont just accept this answer.
They want to know what a Christians thinks about the Old Testament,hell etc…
People state “is a literal fire worse” quite flippantly.Have they ever been in a fire?
Of course it’s worse.Mental anguish due to choosing to seperate oneself from God
makes sense.Eternal burning is barbaric.
How do people react when they read about people in countries like Pakistan etc setting someone on fire or pouring acid on them?
It’s taken as horrible,so to associate it with God,the most good,is not somethjng that sits well with everyone.

I consided what you mentioned regarding revelations being shown to the persons “at their level”
This might be true.If it is true though,how do people discern what’s from God vs what’s from satan?
And also why unapproved apparitions sound awfully similar to approved ones.

 

[littlestsouls2]

Some interesting facts relating to Fatima:

“On that day of October 13, 1917, without remembering the predictions of the children, I was enchanted by a remarkable spectacle in the sky of a kind I had never seen before. I saw it from this veranda…” - Portuguese poet Afonso Lopes Vieira

“I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue always to pray the Rosary every day.” – Our Lady of Fatima, October 13, 1917

“Each day, recite the prayers of the Rosary… Pray the Rosary often.” – Our Lady of Akita, October 13, 1973

“Through the love which you have for my blessed Mother, tell your spiritual director that as I asked Margaret Mary [St Margaret Mary Alacoque] for devotion to my divine Heart, so I ask you to urge the consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart of my Mother.” - Our Lord to Bl. Alexandrina da Costa (who died on October 13, 1955)

 

[Tigg]

I guess it’s important because I like to know what I believe,why I believe it,and be able to answer “the hard questions” if someone who doesn’t believe in God asks them of me.

The scope of this thread is not about the hard questions, but about simple faith and love of God. As the messages of all approved apparitions are basically the same - to pray more, fast and do penance, this** presupposes **a basic faith life to begin with and encouragement to stay on the pathway leading to holiness. If it is a literal burning in hell that is causing you confusion, I would suggest a more fundamental approach to first, explore the basic tenets of Christianity (having read your posts on another thread started by yourself) and ponder your belief in an infinite God who loves you and Who reveals Himself to those who sincerely seek Him. Approved, private apparitions do not lay the foundation for the above, and although not contrary to the faith and indeed, declared worthy of belief, they do not satisfy the same standard as would apply to actual teaching.

 

[Tigg]

Private apparitions are a matter of pure faith and grace, not of facts or endless speculation. Those unable to accept them may have difficulty in understanding the true nature of a miracle which is simply defined as an “extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.”

There are no newspaper accounts nor scientific data which can explain the spinning of the sun nor how the human eye could look at a solar disc without harm, or how other atmospheric conditions never witnessed before could occur. God is supernatural, transcendent, and infinitely powerful and not subject to the simple laws of nature. You are free to privately reject Fatima and them all, and if you do not believe there will be nothing in the way of evidence to ever convince you of things quite beyond the scope of this physical world. It must be approached with spiritual eyes and open heart and held dear by the one who succumbs to the generosity of God. But Catholic Christian charity would hope and expect that all the doubters would honor Fatima only to the extent that they do not deliberately set out to destroy a beautiful treasure held in the hearts of millions of faithful Catholics.

 

[Hans_W]

No, it does not!
Scripture tells us “Do not stifle the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies but test everything that is said. Retain what is good.” ( * I Thess 5 * ) Some people are natural skeptics, or have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof.

Tigg, your posts have high approval ratings on this thread, and I listen to what you say.

You talk about people being natural sceptics and wanting proof. Yes, that’s what the Church does as well, otherwise we would be buried in miracles.

You say “[some people] have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof”. But don’t you think that it also works the other way round? Religious people also seek proof. They want to have evidence for the supernatural to be ‘real’ and that makes them more inclined to believe in miracles.

You could also interpret this desire for proof as a sign of their weak faith.

 

[Path_Finder]

Originally Posted by someperson555 View Post
Quote:
The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive.
Not according to those who were there. They were plenty impressed.
Quote:
It can very easily be explained by non divine causes.
Like what for instance?

Quote:
I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle
.
All 70,000? Many of them were curious agnostics. Some were atheists.
Quote:
And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".
The Miracle didn’t start until Lucia pointed at the sun. There was nothing to see but rain before that.

Quote:
The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
You need to read “Meet the Witnesses” by John Haffert. The author went to Portugal in 1960 to interview any surviving witnesses to the Miracle. He placed an ad in the newspapers asking anyone who was there in Fatima that day to come forward to be interviewed. He had thousands of responses. He interviewed hundreds of them. He asked all of them the same questions. One question was, “Are you aware of anyone who was there in the Cova that day, who DID NOT see anything?” Every single one of the witnesses replied, “No”. As far as they knew, everyone who was there that day saw the sun dance.

Looking at a requote of the post here, it’s not easy to see how the post is divided but I think Boomerang again, gets high ratings for his/her evaluation of Fatima. These posts are the best here by far. If one doesn’t believe that. Perhaps we should put it up for a vote in a separate thread. Posts of the thread, maybe the best posts ever on CAF anywhere.

 

[Memaw]

Tigg, your posts have high approval ratings on this thread, and I listen to what you say.

You talk about people being natural sceptics and wanting proof. Yes, that’s what the Church does as well, otherwise we would be buried in miracles.

You say “[some people] have scientific minds that simply do not understand what a true miracle is and they want proof”. But don’t you think that it also works the other way round? Religious people also seek proof. They want to have evidence for the supernatural to be ‘real’ and that makes them more inclined to believe in miracles.

You could also interpret this desire for proof as a sign of their weak faith.

Or we could simply TRUST the Church and accept her decisions. We are not capable of those kinds of decisions on our own. If the Church says it’s “Worthy of Belief,” then I believe it and stop picking it to pieces and try to do as Our Lady asked. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If the Church says it’s “Worthy of Belief,” then I believe it and stop picking it to pieces and try to do as Our Lady asked. God Bless, Memaw

The problem is not so much it’s status as “Worthy of Belief.” It’s the fact that the title is used simultaneously with some level of urgency that can, at times, come off as absurd and disproportionate to what the Church actually teaches about private revelation.

I mean haven’t you all learned anything from the Fr. Gruner fiasco?

 

[Ed_Silvia]

The problem is not so much it’s status as “Worthy of Belief.” It’s the fact that the title is used simultaneously with some level of urgency that can, at times, come off as absurd and disproportionate to what the Church actually teaches about private revelation.

I mean haven’t you all learned anything from the Fr. Gruner fiasco?

This is the truest post because it discribes truthfully how urgently devotees of Our Lady feel about her heavenly plee for prayer & penence accompanied by supernatural witness. Truthfully during the great mirical many thought the world was ending an as a result had instant conversions which goes to show there is more than one way to true conversion. Our Lady would rather we pray & offer small penences during our daily lives for the salvation of souls but the great mirical shows us that fear and conviction by the spirit can also speed things up. Like St Thomas some believers just have to be there