M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Exactly.
- Status
M
Memaw
Guest
Fr. Gruner’s fiasco is no excuse for denigrating an approved apparition. We have to ignore, (and pray for) people like him and get the true information from trusted sources like the World Apostolate of Fatima. Fr. Andrew Apostoli has written a wonderful book on Fatima, very trustworthy. If one really wants to learn about it there are reliable places to go. Pope Saint John Paul II, the Great, never ignored Fatima, He wrote and spoke of it many times and even visited there. Gruner’s fiasco didn’t stop him from promoting the authentic message of Fatima. God Bless, Memaw
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Pope Saint John Paul II the Great, also kissed the Quran, and I absolutely guarantee you that in a couple hours or less on this very forum – and maybe this thread – I could find Good Catholic, even Traditional Catholics, that will hold my feet to the fire for something I might say about Fatima or the Rosary, and then denigrate me for not being in “full Communion with Rome” and even even questioning my claimed status is Catholic (thus violating the Church teaching that even being heretical does not make on non-Catholic) and yet as soon as they don’t like what the Holy Father does, in his line of work, then all of a sudden where is this communion with Rome? Surely JPII the Great had time to consider this on the airplane so it wasn’t just a “surprise moment” that presented itself, according what some apologists and wannabes seemed to think “oops he made an error.”
So I’m not talking about you Memaw and you may not even see what I mean because I don’t think you personally are trying to “be like that.” Unless you think JPII the Great “erred” or in some way was doing something a Catholic Pope shouldn’t do when he kissed it, in which case I would then I would be forced to dismiss your example of JPII being dedicated to Fatima as meaningless. Because that would tell me that “being More Catholic Than You” is more important than either being “in Communion with Rome” or with being “loving” or for that matter “inclusive” or really for that matter actually living our faith instead of clucking about it to others.
I’m not saying you are one of these Memaw, but it is apparently part of the culture of being a Catholic who doesn’t tow the line of what other Catholics seem to think should be mainstream teaching for all. Maybe it’s like racism; if you haven’t actually felt it you may not be able to see it when it happens? Or maybe it’s like mental illness – people write someone off as having nothing useful to say if you don’t say “only what is expected” of them.
And yes, I have been scorned for not joining in popular but optional devotions and asked why I even have “Catholic” in my profile, and for sticking up for JPII the Great for kissing the Quran, in the same thread.
T
Tigg
Guest
How do you figure that when the Church herself,* the Authority,* (not individuals like Fr. Gruner) say you are free to reject the message without harming your faith? We have lots of renegade priests who say outlandish things actually contrary to the faith. They do not comprise the “Church.”
T
Tigg
Guest
Those who assent to church teaching already possess a predisposition toward obedience and submission because they rightly believe the Church is the** Authority *to determine matters of faith. So no, I do not believe religious people seek proof. Remembering the difference between actual teaching which they must *believe, and private revelation, what they do seek is the gift of discernment freely given by the Spirit to those who ask. With private revelation, they test the spirits just as scripture tells them to do and aided with prayer and the illumination given to their minds, and following the lead of the Church, they are able to know what is true and what is false and either accept or reject it . This is difficult to explain because it’s a purely spiritual thing and I’ve no doubt the skeptics will discount it.
Faith is a personal matter and can be increased purely by the work of God. Many Marian devotees pray every day for a stronger faith and I believe that prayer is honored with the aid of our most powerful intercessor herself. Faith can also be completely lost and must be nurtured with prayer and the sacraments. The point I am making is that private revelation is really a matter of pure faith and in a certain sense, we are unable to believe it on our own.
T
Tigg
Guest
I am truly sorry for your experiences. There is a difference between being zealous for God’s house, which is desirable, and being a zealot, which is not. Even the most well-intentioned are oft times far off the mark, and unable to see their own glaring deficiencies. That is why we always study our faith and work on the “interior” rather than be too concerned with others.Pope Saint John Paul II the Great, also kissed the Quran, and I absolutely guarantee you that in a couple hours or less on this very forum – and maybe this thread – I could find Good Catholic, even Traditional Catholics, that will hold my feet to the fire for something I might say about Fatima or the Rosary, and then denigrate me for not being in “full Communion with Rome” and even even questioning my claimed status is Catholic (thus violating the Church teaching that even being heretical does not make on non-Catholic) and yet as soon as they don’t like what the Holy Father does, in his line of work, then all of a sudden where is this communion with Rome? Surely JPII the Great had time to consider this on the airplane so it wasn’t just a “surprise moment” that presented itself, according what some apologists and wannabes seemed to think “oops he made an error.”
So I’m not talking about you Memaw and you may not even see what I mean because I don’t think you personally are trying to “be like that.” Unless you think JPII the Great “erred” or in some way was doing something a Catholic Pope shouldn’t do when he kissed it, in which case I would then I would be forced to dismiss your example of JPII being dedicated to Fatima as meaningless. Because that would tell me that “being More Catholic Than You” is more important than either being “in Communion with Rome” or with being “loving” or for that matter “inclusive” or really for that matter actually living our faith instead of clucking about it to others.
I’m not saying you are one of these Memaw, but it is apparently part of the culture of being a Catholic who doesn’t tow the line of what other Catholics seem to think should be mainstream teaching for all. Maybe it’s like racism; if you haven’t actually felt it you may not be able to see it when it happens? Or maybe it’s like mental illness – people write someone off as having nothing useful to say if you don’t say “only what is expected” of them.
And yes, I have been scorned for not joining in popular but optional devotions and asked why I even have “Catholic” in my profile, and for sticking up for JPII the Great for kissing the Quran, in the same thread.
btw, as I lean more toward tradition, I can tell you it also hurts when people make derogatory remarks even about the clothes we wear to Mass. One of our “things” is to dress respectfully before the Blessed Sacrament and the flip flop and tank top crowd is all over us for this one and the scorn could be cut with a knife. It works both ways, so we try to be burden bearers for those who experience negative judgments. Be blessed and may we all keep our eyes firmly on Christ.
H
Hans_W
Guest
Thank you for your response. I am one of those devotees you mention in your second paragraph. But I don’t agree with your “I do not believe religious people seek proof”. Many do. Many need to bolster their faith with physical evidence. The whole Intelligent Design movement is about proving God scientifically.Those who assent to church teaching already possess a predisposition toward obedience and submission because they rightly believe the Church is the** Authority *to determine matters of faith. So no, I do not believe religious people seek proof. Remembering the difference between actual teaching which they must *believe, and private revelation, what they do seek is the gift of discernment freely given by the Spirit to those who ask. With private revelation, they test the spirits just as scripture tells them to do and aided with prayer and the illumination given to their minds, and following the lead of the Church, they are able to know what is true and what is false and either accept or reject it . This is difficult to explain because it’s a purely spiritual thing and I’ve no doubt the skeptics will discount it.
Faith is a personal matter and can be increased purely by the work of God. Many Marian devotees pray every day for a stronger faith and I believe that prayer is honored with the aid of our most powerful intercessor herself. Faith can also be completely lost and must be nurtured with prayer and the sacraments. The point I am making is that private revelation is really a matter of pure faith and in a certain sense, we are unable to believe it on our own.
I think the whole problem boils down to accepting, without questioning, what the Church decides. Medjugorje sometimes pops up in new threads. It is not approved by the Church. If the Church decides to put on its approval stamp, then it suddenly becomes genuine. Are we allowed to question these decisions? The Galileo debacles also comes to mind. It has haunted the Church for centuries.
H
Hans_W
Guest
Thank you for your response. I am one of those devotees you mention in your second paragraph, but I disagree with your statement “I do not believe religious people seek proof”. Many do need physical evidence to bolster their faith. The whole Intelligent Design movement is about proving God scientifically.Those who assent to church teaching already possess a predisposition toward obedience and submission because they rightly believe the Church is the** Authority *to determine matters of faith. So no, I do not believe religious people seek proof. Remembering the difference between actual teaching which they must *believe, and private revelation, what they do seek is the gift of discernment freely given by the Spirit to those who ask. With private revelation, they test the spirits just as scripture tells them to do and aided with prayer and the illumination given to their minds, and following the lead of the Church, they are able to know what is true and what is false and either accept or reject it . This is difficult to explain because it’s a purely spiritual thing and I’ve no doubt the skeptics will discount it.
Faith is a personal matter and can be increased purely by the work of God. Many Marian devotees pray every day for a stronger faith and I believe that prayer is honored with the aid of our most powerful intercessor herself. Faith can also be completely lost and must be nurtured with prayer and the sacraments. The point I am making is that private revelation is really a matter of pure faith and in a certain sense, we are unable to believe it on our own.
The whole problem boils down to the question of whether we need to accept, without any question, what the Church decides. If an apparition is genuine or not - the Church decides. There are ongoing apparitions (people will know what I am talking about) not approved by the Church. If the Church decides that they are genuine, does that suddenly make them true. Can the Church make this claim? The Galileo debacle comes to mind. I know it is a very different case, but it took the Church centuries to admit that they were wrong.
H
Hans_W
Guest
Thank you for your response. I am one of those devotees you mention in your second paragraph, but I disagree with your statement “I do not believe religious people seek proof”. Many do need physical evidence to bolster their faith. The whole Intelligent Design movement is about proving God scientifically.Those who assent to church teaching already possess a predisposition toward obedience and submission because they rightly believe the Church is the** Authority *to determine matters of faith. So no, I do not believe religious people seek proof. Remembering the difference between actual teaching which they must *believe, and private revelation, what they do seek is the gift of discernment freely given by the Spirit to those who ask. With private revelation, they test the spirits just as scripture tells them to do and aided with prayer and the illumination given to their minds, and following the lead of the Church, they are able to know what is true and what is false and either accept or reject it . This is difficult to explain because it’s a purely spiritual thing and I’ve no doubt the skeptics will discount it.
Faith is a personal matter and can be increased purely by the work of God. Many Marian devotees pray every day for a stronger faith and I believe that prayer is honored with the aid of our most powerful intercessor herself. Faith can also be completely lost and must be nurtured with prayer and the sacraments. The point I am making is that private revelation is really a matter of pure faith and in a certain sense, we are unable to believe it on our own.
The whole problem boils down to the question of whether we need to accept, without any question, what the Church decides. If an apparition is genuine or not - the Church decides. There are ongoing apparitions which are not approved by the Church. If the Church decides that they are genuine, does that suddenly make them true. Can the Church make this claim? The Galileo debacle comes to mind. I know it is a very different case, but it took the Church centuries to admit that they were wrong.
S
someperson555
Guest
Ugh. It makes me angry when religious people say silly things like that. That " religious people dont ask for proof/ evidence". Or things like that. On the contrary we DO and SHOULD. How can you ask an atheist or a Muslim or protestant to convert if you cannot offer them any reason beyond " cuz muh church says so". Thats NOT the way to evangelize and as a Christian man myself I CRINGE when I see other christians make weak and fallacious arguments like that. There IS evidence for the existence of God. It is NOT meant to be taken on faith. That is a protestant fallacy which many Catholics have unfortunately adopted because they lack philosophical and scientistific knowledge.
People like you are still on the childs level of faith. Im Catholic, and I KNOW why im a Catholic. You are Catholic but you DO NOT know why you are a Catholic. We are not supposed to believe a dogma or teaching based on blind faith. Otherwise what gives your faith more validity than a muslim of a protestant or an african pagan? St peter tells us in scripture to be able to defend the Faith with EVIDENCE. St Paul tells us to TEST THE SPIRITS. Many Catholics unfortunately dont and they think like you which is why they get suckered into all sorts of phony prophecies and apparitions like bayside and garabandal.
After much skepticism youll be happy to know that ive come to accept fatima but not based on the reports about the suns odd movements or the secrets. Because those things really can be explained by mass delusion and auto suggestion. Note the spectators at bayside also reported seeing green orbs. But is it true? I believe in fatima because its obvious that the consecration to russia did a lot of good. And after all, two of the kids were canonized.
T
Techno2000
Guest
All’s Well That Ends Well.
M
Memaw
Guest
Two of the children were not canonized, yet. They are in the process tho. As I said before the Fatima Apparitions were carefully investigated by the Church Authorities and found “Worthy of Belief” Pope Pius XII called Fatima the “Reaffirmation of the Gospels.” God Bless, Memaw
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Have you looked at the definition of “faith” in the Bible? Not that I’m implying you “should” read the Bible, of course, because I don’t think the Church actually requires that you do:
Heb 11:1 – “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”
If we have “proof” then we don’t need faith. So trying to convince someone without faith in articles of faith, by trying to give them evidence, means we don’t have faith in it because we are looking for “proof” ourselves.
1 Cor 9:17-25
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”
Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”
Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
OK so here you are officially declaring you are a better Catholic than someone else – oh no you didn’t say “better” but “more aware of why you are Catholic.” Potayto, potahto – because they don’t share your views on Fatima. And even though you don’t even know what the word “faith” means then yes, you have become an excellent and highly salient example of the condescending attitude I have been posting about all this time.
If you don’t even know what Jesus says in the Bible, or what its definition of “faith” is, how are you possibly going to “test the spirits” in the manner of St. Paul without getting lured into error?
But you do have a lot of knowledge; be careful it doesn’t get in the way of your faith and your obedience to Jesus. St. Paul also says a few things about using knowledge as a source of pride:
1 Cor 8:1b-3
we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.
Because of how hard you are trying to rely on knowledge, that will not build up anything but your pride. I am doubtful I will be able to pierce your armor, but I am trying for the love of God and you.
So you believe in Fatima because you think that world events show that God is working good in Russia? Do you base that on Russia invading the Ukraine? If not, then what?
MS
T
Tigg
Guest
aaahhh…MS, this is a beautiful post. Thank you! You beat me to it with good reason. The Holy Spirit gave you inspiration concerning certain truths that hadn’t even crossed my mind. Be blessed!
T
Tigg
Guest
You might do well for yourself if you desist with your rash judgments and read what your Church actually says regarding reason, faith and assent to teaching. If you don’t believe us, maybe you’ll believe Catholic Answers Magazine:
Our bishops have said (from the USCCB website)
And finally:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
We’re on the same team. I see us as both harvesters, and seekers of more harvesters. The harvest has been ready for 2000 years. Now that we can communicate individual-to-individual all over the globe, we have the tools to be this person. It sounds like he’s leaving us with the baton, knowing that by the time we get to the year 2015, acts of mercy can “go viral” at any time and hit a couple billion potential souls in a a few days’ time.
Can you imagine Jesus with his own website, or St. Peter with a Twitter account? Or for that matter, St. Paul posting on these forums? The successor of Peter has a twitter account. Can you imagine if Pope Francis actually had an account here on CAF? For that matter, how to we know that he doesn’t?
It seems to me Jesus did miracles to who the authority He had, but He also taught us to use our own faith. And think about the “dishonest steward” story which I have many theories about including the Church “doing what she had to do” to protect Christians and the Word from being killed off. Isn’t Jesus saying that people who live in our own times, among people like ourselves, should become savvy at dealing with other people? Jesus couldn’t have known (in His condition at a mortal human) that there would ever be a place where we could share our thoughts with all the nations simultaneously. In His days, it took months at best to even “plant seeds” in other nations. But He did know that the yeast will spread throughout the dough, and you also notice there was one thing Jesus could “not” predict, was “when” prophecies would come true.
And notice another thing about the second coming of Christ. He does say not to believe people who point and say “there He is” and I think that’s party because He comes to us now in Spirit, which is a wellspring from inside of us. He said that He nobody would be uncertain about it but there is one thing He did NOT say. He never said that His second coming would be “simultaneous” to all people at once – like some rapture thing or something. A friend who took a course in reading Revelation said that really wasn’t to be taken as future prophecy so IMO all that stuff about the horses coming from the sky or whatever is not what God was intending to portray – but I’ll let that go since I don’t know much about Rev. I think we see the second coming of the Christ, when we are born into His Spirit. When we are in “the kingdom” which is really “our kingdoms” which is also “Christ’s kingdom” of which He spoke, it means to me that we have achieved to some experientially convincing degree, of a new perspective to look at the same world. We see all the happens but we are no longer anxious about it. It is a place where the first is last and the greatest is the one who serves – and that creates no cognitive dissonance because the mind and heart have been renewed into the dying of self.
But my ego likes to type a lot. I’ll give your eyes a break now for a bit.
S
someperson555
Guest
Have you looked at the definition of “faith” in the Bible? Not that I’m implying you “should” read the Bible, of course, because I don’t think the Church actually requires that you do:
Heb 11:1 – “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”
If we have “proof” then we don’t need faith. So trying to convince someone without faith in articles of faith, by trying to give them evidence, means we don’t have faith in it because we are looking for “proof” ourselves.
1 Cor 9:17-25
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”
Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of .
If you don’t even know what Jesus says in the Bible, or what its definition of “faith” is, how are you possibly going to “test the spirits” in the manner of St. Paul without getting lured into error?
But you do have a lot of knowledge; be careful it doesn’t get in the way of your faith and your obedience to Jesus. St. Paul also says a few things about using knowledge aine? If not, then what?
MS
Lol no. You have a COMPLETELY flawed idea of what pride is. Pride is NOT taking pleasure or joy in being beautiful, intelligent, or talented. ( if you actually are) that is NOT a sin. If you work hard to be beautiful or intelligent then you have the right to take joy in that and show it off. Unfortunately many people think that being proud of your assets is a sin because THEYRE jealous. Most people are too lazy to exercise for a beautiful body or study to increase their knowledge and they want to pull everyone else down to their level! Theres nothing wrong with acknowledging your own intelligence or beauty. In fact, if youre beautiful or intelligent and you pretend that youre not then that would be lying so thats a sin!
Should a champion chess player be like " nah man I suck, I suck" or should a supermodel be like " nah man im ugly" or should a senior lecturer at a university be like " nah man im stupid" or should any of these people be like " doh ho ho shux im nothin’ special"? NO! ofcourse not. That would be utterly RIDICULOUS. In the bible it says if you have a light let it shine for everyone to see! Jesus himself said in the new testament: " you call me master and rightfully so, you call me teacher and rightfully so" in the old testament Solomon said: " listen to my wisdom!" Beauty and intelligence are very noble pursuits which every human being should aim for. Do you think that in heaven everyones going to be fat stupid and ugly? Or if theyd glorious they wouldn’t be allowed to enjoyit?
Now back to the main point. I just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding of pride that so many people seem to have. Faith must be based on evidence! It can be either empirical evidence or logical evidence. But we christians are NOT meant to take Gods existence on faith. How can you love someone if youre not even sure they exist?? If you want to evangelize you MUST be educated in philosophy, science, psychology, theology, scripture, and history. You should never believe anything just because someone says you should. You have NO IDEA how damaging it is to the reputation of our faith when some homecoming Catholic filled with zeal and ignorance picks a fight with an educated atheist and then gets sent away with their tails between their legs. We educated evangelizers are tired of having to apologize for these believers. There are so many good arguments for Gods existence like the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, or the arguments for the soul using platonic philosophy. Yet these bible thumping uneducated Christians use NONE of those great arguments. Instead they use fallacious arguments, and even resort to name calling and petty threats ( like threatening people that they will go to hell if they dont believe). God would never send someone to hell for sincerely disbelieving something. So their threats are not even true.
Look if you are not educated thats bo big deal. Just stay in the background and pray. But please leave the evangelizing to those of us who know what theyre doing.
Also mysticalseeker, I think its a sin to seek out mystical experiences God warns us against such things in the bible. It is unhealthy to have such desires. If God wants to give you a mystical experience he will do so. But you cannot seek it out. THAT builds the ego.
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
These are all very good points.
These are some good points, too. But there are “arguments” for God’s existence, just not “proof.” But I disagree with you, in that we cannot know God except through our faith. Faith is the evidence, like I said according to Heb 11:1 so if you have it, then you have your “knowledge” just only valid for you and other people “of faith.”
Who do you mean, anyone in particular?
Or is it me? Are you officially asserting your position as being “More Catholic” than I am? Or no more like a “more enticing example of a ‘real’ Catholic?” I’d like to find the words to express in precisely what way you are superior to me. Unless you were talking about someone else in which case I would like to hear about that.
What? Who is “seeking” mystical experiences? Are you referring to my screen name of “Mystical Seeker?” If so, have you never heard of “mysticism” or of being a “seeker” along the spiritual journey? If you haven’t, then you should check into it. It’s well documented by St. John of the Cross, recently (1926) named a doctor of the Church, from his hands-on observations. Not from some vision, but his guidance of souls along the way.
In fact, I suggest if you want to know about pride, you might want to read the first couple chapters of the Dark Night of the Soul. Pride is a lot trickier than you seem to be giving it credit for.
MS
S
someperson555
Guest
No I was not talking to you personally when I was referring to the people who should " stay in the back". You actually seem quite educated and I really like a lot of your comments.These are all very good points.
These are some good points, too. But there are “arguments” for God’s existence, just not “proof.” But I disagree with you, in that we cannot know God except through our faith. Faith is the evidence, like I said according to Heb 11:1 so if you have it, then you have your “knowledge” just only valid for you and other people “of faith.”
Who do you mean, anyone in particular?
Or is it me? Are you officially asserting your position as being “More Catholic” than I am? Or no more like a “more enticing example of a ‘real’ Catholic?” I’d like to find the words to express in precisely what way you are superior to me. Unless you were talking about someone else in which case I would like to hear about that.
What? Who is “seeking” mystical experiences? Are you referring to my screen name of “Mystical Seeker?” If so, have you never heard of “mysticism” or of being a “seeker” along the spiritual journey? If you haven’t, then you should check into it. It’s well documented by St. John of the Cross, recently (1926) named a doctor of the Church, from his hands-on observations. Not from some vision, but his guidance of souls along the way.
In fact, I suggest if you want to know about pride, you might want to read the first couple chapters of the Dark Night of the Soul. Pride is a lot trickier than you seem to be giving it credit for.
MS
Sorry for not quoting but thats because im doing this on my phone so its very frustrating
that is why my comments sometimes have a touch of rage in them lol.Its nothing personal.
I get what youre trying to say. Though I respectfully disagree. I dont think people can only know God through OUR faith alone. I believe that even Muslims, pagans, and protestants who are ignorant of catholicism, or sincerely not convinced can have an intimate relationship with God. It simply depends on how open they are to Gods direction. I believe God listens when a protestant says : Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner" or if a muslim says " I submit to you God" “or if a hindue says " brahma show me the way”.
Although im not sure if by faith you meant faith as the universal thing or faith as the synonym for religion.
Anyway I believe its important to be able to provide evidence when trying to convert someone. For example you cant just tell a muslim to " just believe" because that muslim was born into the muslim faith, was raised by muslim parents, in a muslim environment, with muslim peers. So he is just as convinced that islam is the correct religion as we are that christianity is. The burden is on us To present evidence to him that the resurrection really happened. ( because the validity of the Christian faith over other faiths rests on the resurrection). Tell him that Jesus’ remains were never found whereas mohammeds were. Tell him how there were countless eye witnesses to his post resurrection, and how many of these eye witnesses died for their convictions ( this precludes the possibility of liars and mental illness). Thats just one example of how I think the proper way to evangelize is. Many Christians however say things like: " ya just gotta believe! Cant ya feel jeysus in ur heart??" Or " jesus appeared to me in my toast!" These are not good ways to spread the faith. Do you see what I mean?
And I never said im a better Catholic than anyone. In fact youre probably a better Catholic than me because I hold heretical beliefs. I just Said that im probably smarter than a lot of lay Christians
. But I know, intelligence wont get me to heaven.I didn’t mean to criticize your personal spirituality, but I always got suspicious of people who are into esoteric stuff. Dont think the thrill of mystical experiences should be the goal.
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Ahh, don’t sell yourself short. I bet I could hold up a pretty good “heretic” front too, if I had to.And I never said im a better Catholic than anyone. In fact youre probably a better Catholic than me because I hold heretical beliefs. I just Said that im probably smarter than a lot of lay Christians
I didn’t mean to criticize your personal spirituality, but I always got suspicious of people who are into esoteric stuff. Dont think the thrill of mystical experiences should be the goal.
Hey I’ve been through so much. I was a huge academic nerd who had no “emotional intelligence” then I went Jesus freak, then sever psycho and disabled, then after 12 years of being told it would never be fixed and shunned and made into social leper among, I got the healing from the Lord. So I get carried away and do that stupid King David dance all the time… shouting from the rooftops “taste and see” and all that good stuff, you know? People don’t like that; they want rituals and rules and procedures and stuff. None of this “taste and see” stuff. :nope:
And now get this. Some of those who most disrespected me when I was psycho partly because I couldn’t deal with their hypocrisy, and now sucking up to me and my wife because one our sons entered the seminary, and they all love him. So yeah isn’t it funny the people who shun me for 10 years are all of a sudden good old pals and are suddenly very concerned with how my life is going when they would have gone 300 feet out of their way to avoid me only a few years ago. pullleeezzze… people take a number, and then don’t expect me to call yours any time soon.
MS
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