Why I rejected Sola Fide

[Bennie_P]

The scripture actually reads:

This is a reference to the monotheistic God of the Bible. The belief of the demons is correct - there is only one God. Satan’s claim that he would be “like the most high” or like God is false, and this is what makes the demons tremble. Their belief is not a saving faith.

Your reference to Matthew 7:21 is a reference to Jesus’ statement that not everyone who says they believe He is Lord really believes it. They run around doing works and believing that is what saves them. This is not so, and Jesus points it out here. He validates Paul’s statement:

It’s all pretty clear.

It is when you read more of the passage before and after James 2:19

James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, *that faith without works is dead? *
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

I believe the Catholic view is by the Grace of God we are saved, but we must respond to (cooperate with)that Grace.:bible1:

Heb 5:12 - 14 For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat. For every one that is a partaker of milk is unskilful in the word of justice: for he is a little child. But strong meat is for the perfect: for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.

And Matthew Chapter 7 deals with more then belief but fruits of your labor…

Mat 7:20 - 24 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is when you read more of the passage before and after James 2:19

James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, *that faith without works is dead? *
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

I believe the Catholic view is by the Grace of God we are saved, but we must respond to (cooperate with)that Grace.:bible1:

Heb 5:12 - 14 For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat. For every one that is a partaker of milk is unskilful in the word of justice: for he is a little child. But strong meat is for the perfect: for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.

Yes, Catholic believe we are saved by God’s grace. By ourselves we cannot be saved. That what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[RNRobert]

Mepatri,

What part of ‘black letter Scripture’ do you not understand?

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love,** I am nothing****.
**So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:2,13.

If faith has no works working in love, then it is DEAD, and, as James asks, can that faith save someone? The answer of course, is NO.
As Mannyfit, pointed out, Sola Fide implies laziness and cheapens Christ’s sacrifice for us.

At one time I was very anti-catholic, and as I pointed out in my OP, I dearly wanted Sola Fide to be true. But the more I read my Bible, the more I recognized that it was a false doctrine (and this was before I ever even entertained the idea of becoming Catholic). It is one of the reasons I abandoned Protestantism: it claims to follow the Bible, but it does what an Orthodox acquaintance called “lateral arabesques” when it came to Bible passages that refuted its pet doctrines. Incidentally, the Orthodox don’t hold to Sola Fide either- no Christian did until Martin Luther came on the scene.

 

[mepatri]

Mepatri,

What part of ‘black letter Scripture’ do you not understand?

Very Christian tone brother. Is this how one can expect to be treated by Catholics on this forum? I’ll try to show you more kindness and respect than you extend to me.

I think the problem may be that you assume that your interpretation is correct. It cannot be - because it militates against other Scriptures if it is asserted to be true.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

This passage points out that if a person says he has faith, but doesn’t show the outward signs of it (works), then the faith he claims he has most likely is a dead faith because it doesn’t produce fruit.

If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

A great example of what I’m talking about. If you act like you
have faith and tell others that you’re spirtual, but act differently when the time comes, how is it that your faith really lives inside you? If your professed faith produces no real action on your part, just lip service, your faith is most likely dead.

“You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

Faith is demonstraed by works, but salvation is not made manifest by works. Your example is clear.

Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Here you do not quote the full Scripture - apparently in an effort to make your point, but instead you lead others astray by taking it out of context. The scripture actually reads

“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.”
– James 2:18-20 [NRSV]

The passage makes the point that even the demons believe that there is one monotheistic God. It says nothing about whether they have faith or not. Belief is not necessarily faith.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

Why do you call me that? Didn’t Christ die for me, just as He did for you? I can see clearly the fruit that your Catholic faith produces in you. I’m an “ignoramus”, but you have the truth so that makes you “better” than me, right? Hmmm…

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Maybe. But you forget that Christ brought with Him “a new and better covenant”. His sacrifice at Calvary changed everything, and now we need only have faith in Him for our salvation. Read the book of Hebrews - it explains it all. The Scripture I think you are referring to (Heb 11:17) only mentions that Abraham did what he did by faith - but makes no mention that he was “justified” by it as you suggest. If you have another Scriputure proving your point, please post it.

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

We read it differently. I see that it says that Abraham “believed” God, not that he did anything intentionally to gain God’s favor because he thought he could. Believing is not a “work”, at least not by the Bible’s definition. You may do a work because you believe, but your belief is not dependent upon the work. I do see that his faith was active along with his works. This was because his faith was genuine, and his works were a result of that faith. Also, that was in the time before Christ came and sacrificed Himself - that changed everything. The same goes for Rahab.

Understand this: If your salvation could be secured by you, by the works that you do, then God would be your debtor, and the Bible states that God is a debtor to no man. If your works justified you in any way, then why did Christ die for us? How can you improve upon, or even support, His work on the cross? And when Christ declared it is finished, what did He mean by that? What was “finished”? Why would His work to save you and I be “finished” if it still depended upon our works? It was His work of redemption, the “buying back” or “salvation” of the lost. It’s wrong to think that you can do anything at all to save yourself. You can’t. That’s why He came, suffered, and died for us - because you and I are utterly helpless, and we can’t save ourselves.

 

[mepatri]

Apparently, you have no idea what the Catholic Church actually teaches regarding faith.

This is the summary of Catholic belief.

We believe we are saved by God’s grace. It is our love for God that causes us to have faith, and how do we show our faith? We do it by our actions.

You need to read the catechism. The official Catholic position is that faith combined with works brings about salvation. If what you say above were true, there would be no argument between Protestants and Catholics, since your rendition above is the Protestant view.

 

[RNRobert]

Mepatri,

I was not calling you an ignoramus. I was quoting verbatim from the NAB where James is calling the person without works an 'ignoramus." The RSV uses the term “foolish fellow”, the KJV “vain man,” NIV “foolish man.” Apparently, this is what James thinks of those who believe it in faith alone. They are the words of Scripture, not mine.

As Manny and bennie pointed out on this thread. There is **nothing **we can do to earn our salvation. It is by grace alone. But if that grace produces no fruit, then it is dead.

 

[john_ennis]

Incidentally, the Orthodox don’t hold to Sola Fide either- no Christian did until Martin Luther came on the scene.

It’s a staggeringly persuasive point.

It shouldn’t be lost on the Sola Fide folks that no one in one-and-a-half thousand years of Christianity ever wrote that our behavior has no effect on our salvation.

How could they, considering Matt 25? Considering that of Faith, Hope, and Love, the greatest is love?

Who could ever doubt that Christ’s love working in us–this thing called Charity, has SAVING VALUE?

Peace.
John

 

[Rightlydivide]

Of course or you could just go and read their letters yourself.
earlychristianwritings.com/

I actually asked the question to show your position is a theological novum in Christian history.

Which part of my position?

I don’t know a great deal about the early Church fathers however what I do know is that they did delve into Scripture with great intensity and a number of them were very good scholars. Jerome, Augustine, Turtullian, Origen, St. Ingatius of Antioch and many others knew the Scriptures far better than any person in history, yet none of them taught dispensationalism. Dispensationalism was made popular by John Darby, Scofield and others who created it in the 19th century

Oh…I thought it was Paul…

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things

in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
End times

Present times

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

[/QUOTE]

 

[john_ennis]

As Manny and bennie pointed out on this thread. There is **nothing **we can do to earn our salvation. It is by grace alone. But if that grace produces no fruit, then it is dead.

Just to clarify; I believe the Catholic Church teaching is that these works of love (which is Christ’s Love working with our consent, really), complete our faith. They are not merely signs of saving faith.

Peace.
John

 

[Mannyfit75]

You need to read the catechism. The official Catholic position is that faith combined with works brings about salvation. If what you say above were true, there would be no argument between Protestants and Catholics, since your rendition above is the Protestant view.

I have and it said, we are saved by God’s Grace.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2003.htm

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

1. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What is the grace that justifies?

1996-1998
2005
2021

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

1. What other kinds of grace are there?

1999-2000
2003-2004
2023-2024

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#Gods%20Salvation:%20Law%20and%20Grace

I have read the Catechism many times like the Bible don’t assumed that I don’t read the Catechism like you think like I don’t read the Bible.

mepatri,

You with your Protestant mind cannot understand Catholic doctrine. You insist we believe we are save by works. We tell you we are save by grace of God. Grace allows us to be Holy. It gives us the ability to love God and obey him. It gives us love, faith, and gives us the ability to show our faith by our deeds just as James stated.

It is the Grace of God that allows us to live a Holy life. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Don’t claim to say you know what the Catholic Church teaches. You don’t, mepatri. You don’t know Catholic doctrine.

We are telling giving you an answer but you insist we are save by works.

It’s kinda like you are saying that Catholic Church teaches we are saved by Works Alone, which is not taught in the Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just to clarify; I believe the Catholic Church teaching is that these works of love (which is Christ’s Love working with our consent, really), complete our faith. They are not merely signs of saving faith.

Peace.
John

Grace is what merits our works and faith. See the citation I provided.

 

[Bishopite]

[mepatri;2045190]This passage means that once you accept Christ, your life will exhibit the fruit of the spirt. It doesn’t mean that you need to do works to have faith - many people can have faith but not do good works - so that alone disallows the Catholic view. James was saying that if you’ve accepted Christ, your works will reflect that fact.

Nowhere has the RCC taught that we do works to have faith, in fact a simple review of history proves the Catholic Church way back at the council of Orange 529 AD, condemned pelagianism which taught that false idea.
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/council.orange.txt

James 2:14-24
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Can a faith without works save him? No because IF it isn’t an active faith and not a “verb” but merely an adjective it isn’t a true faith. Faith is a gift from God Eph 2:8-9 as are the works a gift also which we receive Eph 2:10.

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If we fail to do the corporal works of mercy and yet say we have faith, our faith without those works are dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Our faith isn’t evident without works of charity. Gal 5:6 summs it up…“faith working through love.”

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 **Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? **23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was *accounted to him for righteousness.” *And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Was not Abraham justified by works? What kind of works was Abraham justified by? Gal 5:6 “faith working through love.”
Abrahams faith was perfected by his works.

The good works we do after salvation testify to our new found faith. There is nothing you or I can do to improve upon, or to enhance what Christ already did for us on the cross. He insured our salvation - not us.

The good works we do after being justified attest to our true faith, yet we are also going to be judged by them…
Romans 2:6 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;”

Some will obtain eternal life because they did good works with their faith, some won’t obtain eternal life because some didn’t do good works but did things to glorify themselves and didn’t continue in doing good. This is what Mt 25:34-46 says with the sheep and the goats; some did works of mercy unto Christ, some did them unto their own glory. Guess which ones go to hell?

And it is your misunderstanding that Catholics think we can improve upon Christ’s oblation upon the cross. Christ didn’t die on the cross in order that sin would be erradicated instantly after His death or God would be obligated to “save” everyone since NO one would be sinning any longer. But as we know people still sin post Jesus’ resurrection. Christ died on the cross to “REDEEM” us from our sinful life and impliment a new covenant of grace. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have obligations to obey; we have the obligation of faith. To say that Christ died on the cross and we can do nothing is denying the reality of our obligation to obey God as Paul says in Rom 1:5, 16:26…“the obedience of faith.”

 

[Bennie_P]

You need to read the catechism. The official Catholic position is that faith combined with works brings about salvation. If what you say above were true, there would be no argument between Protestants and Catholics, since your rendition above is the Protestant view.

In reality the action of our salvation is wholly up to God’s Gift to us, and you have come here to debunk The Catholic Church Teachings by an authority (I wonder who’s) which you assume is right. The main problem here is the way you and those that disagree with you are the way each of us understand the words describing that action and the response of the individual to the action. You apparrantly believe once saved always saved, which totally takes away an individuals free will. But God loves us so much he gives us the total freedom to either Love Him by free choice or reject by that same free choice. Christ himself says, in a verse you have used, “*Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: **but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. ***”

If you just go by solo scriptura, which I don’t adhere to myself any longer, that verse tells you there is action (work) required by the believer. But there is no way any of us can do it by our actions (works), but with the Gift of Christ’s love for us we are given the hope of our salvation. It is Christ that saves.

How do I do my part, my works, is to seek and follow God’s will in my life. Does God measure that? If he does then I’m in trouble. But if I sit back with my “fire insurance”, as a very close protestant freind of mine says all the time, I’ll probly burn. (yet he and I work together in a ministry that helps others in need, is it works? or a sign of our santification? words)

Now if you came to this forum to explore, learn and discuss what the Catholic Church teaches (which is one of the reasons I come here) then this is place to be. If you came here to convert Catholics away from our ‘error’ well that is kinda of like standing on top of your car and preaching to us in our parish parking lot and that is rude, not love.

PS - I was protestant for 50 years before I finally came home. Much of the arguments you present are in the understanding of the words, their meanings and how they are defined. Along with 500 years looking through anti-Catholic filters.

Oh, I love the CCC read it twice while in RCIA. Have extra copies to give out to non-Catholics that try to tell me what the Church teaches…still learning myself.

Love You…

 

[mikeledes]

We do not enter into a right relationship with God based on our works. Once we enter into that relationship, however, we must follow up with a life that reflects the love of God poured into our hearts. If we fail to follow up our faith, fail to persevere in bearing fruit, we will not experience the final goal of all Christians, final salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[RNRobert]

Also, this from the catechism:

2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.

The Catholic (and Biblical view) is Grace+Faith+Works=Salvation.

A good analogy would be the Dead Sea. It is fed by the Jordan River, yet it has a high salt content, and thus cannot support life. Why? Because has no outlet. Thus is it with the Christian. Unless we cooperate with God’s Grace and our faith bears fruit with love and good works towards our fellow man, then our faith is useless and we are dead spiritually.

 

[RNRobert]

Very Christian tone brother. Is this how one can expect to be treated by Catholics on this forum? I’ll try to show you more kindness and respect than you extend to me.

If I sounded uncharitable, my apologies. It’s just that Scripture is very plain that we faith without works is dead, and that we are not justified by faith alone (as I mentioned in my OP, it is the ONLY time “faith alone” is mentioned), and dancing around it won’t change it.

I can see why Luther called James “an epistle of straw” as it flies in the face of Sola Fide.

 

[dcdurel]

The good works we do after salvation testify to our new found faith. There is nothing you or I can do to improve upon, or to enhance what Christ already did for us on the cross. He insured our salvation - not us.

That statement misses the point. The point is that we have not received all the graces Christ merited on the cross.

When we OBEY Jesus, we recieve more of the grace of salvation, which justifies us more. That is why James said we are justified by works (of obdience)
If we don’t obey and commit mortal sin and don’t repent, then we lose this grace of salvation. If we die in these sins we will not inherit Heaven, as Paul writes to the believers in Galatians 5:19-21

And if we place our faith in dissident men in the Church who said that something in addition to faith and obedience was necessary, such as following the circumcision rituals of the Law of Moses, then we are trying to earn our salvation.

 

[mepatri]

That statement misses the point. The point is that we have not received all the graces Christ merited on the cross.

I have not found this in Scripture. I’m not sure where you get this from, but if it’s the Catholic Catechism, a statement this serious must be supported by sacred Scriptrue. Would you post your source for this idea?

When we OBEY Jesus, we recieve more of the grace of salvation, which justifies us more. That is why James said we are justified by works (of obdience)

James did not say that - reference the Scripture please. Besides, how is one “justified more”? What good would that do? You are either justified, or you are not. You are either saved, or you are not. If you are justified more than me, what will that get you? You missunderstand that you gain no favor with God by being “good”. You can never be good enough.

If we don’t obey and commit mortal sin and don’t repent, then we lose this grace of salvation. If we die in these sins we will not inherit Heaven, as Paul writes to the believers in Galatians 5:19-21

Look at it this way - how are you better than God? You are a child of God, and as such, He will treat you that way. Let’s say your child was in desperate need of something - maybe food. Your child will die if she doesn’t eat. You provide her with the food to sustain her life. While eating she says something nasty to her younger brother, a statement that not long ago you told her was a serious breech of your rules. Would you then yank the food back off of her plate as she looked up at you in total fear, demanding that she make amends before you let her eat again? What kind of a father would you be to threaten your daughter with death by starvation? This is exactly what you claim God does to us. He holds everlasting life in front of our noses like a dangling carrot, always ready to snatch it away given the least provocation to do so. Sorry, but I think that since you have spent so long following the Catholic Chruch, you fully understand the Catholic way of seeing God, but don’t really understand His nature and character as He has revealed it to us in the Scriptures.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not advocating disobedience, and I don’t mean to suggest we don’t need to repent of our sins - we do. It’s just that all of this has nothing to do with your salvation.

And if we place our faith in dissident men in the Church who said that something in addition to faith and obedience was necessary, such as following the circumcision rituals of the Law of Moses, then we are trying to earn our salvation.

Notice that everytime you refer back to the days of the Law, it is before Christ was sacraficed for us. You can’t make reference to the ways of the old covenant, and assume that they apply after the “new and better” covenant that Christ established - they don’t, and the book of Hebrews makes this clear.

 

[Bennie_P]

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not advocating disobedience, and I don’t mean to suggest we don’t need to repent of our sins - we do. It’s just that all of this has nothing to do with your salvation.

Notice that everytime you refer back to the days of the Law, it is before Christ was sacraficed for us. You can’t make reference to the ways of the old covenant, and assume that they apply after the “new and better” covenant that Christ established - they don’t, and the book of Hebrews makes this clear.

How can you say that? When Christ quoted scripture the only Scripture He had to quote was the Old Testament. and what Scriptures do you think St Paul would be talking about here in 2Tim 3:16-17? Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. Since the NT had not been totally written yet? or been accepted as Holy Scripture?

You misunderstand. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit through Scripture, Traditions and the Magisterium. Which through the Magisterium and Tradition we received scripture.

Hebrew 13:17 “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.” This a statement from St Paul a leader of the Church (Magisterium?)

2Tim 4:1 -7 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming and his kingdom: Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry. Be sober. For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand. I have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith.

2Tim 2:23 -26 And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild toward all men, apt to teach, patient, With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth; And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil by whom they are held captive at his will.

By the way if you want to read the CCC with notations of its sources you can go to vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM or scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[mepatri]

When Christ quoted scripture the only Scripture He had to quote was the Old Testament. and what Scriptures do you think St Paul would be talking about here in 2Tim 3:16-17? Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. Since the NT had not been totally written yet? or been accepted as Holy Scripture?

I’m not saying Scripture is not profitable, I’m saying it’s being misused. Because you don’t understand the proper way to intrepret scripture (which, by the way, is no different than intertreting any other writing) you miss its real meaning. You can’t take a “snippet” of Scripture and then try to make your point if that snippet is not in harmony with the rest of the verse. One of the key rules in inerpreting the Bible is that Scripture inerprets Scriputre. We don’t have to, nor should we dive willy-nilly into its passages without following prescribe methods of inerpretation. We also should not let others tell us what it says.

Jesus and Paul did refer to the OT, and we should too. But not recognizing that things changed with the NT (that’s why we have it) is reckless, and leads to problems in understanding. Again, read Hebrews.

You misunderstand. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit through Scripture, Traditions and the Magisterium. Which through the Magisterium and Tradition we received scripture.

Hebrew 13:17 “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.” This a statement from St Paul a leader of the Church (Magisterium?)

We should listen to our Church leaders; but we must temper that with our understanding of Scripture (just as the Bereans did when being instructed by Paul), and what God’s word has told us. The recent church scandals would not have occurred if the victims had not cooperated with their attackers - they did so because of blind trust.

The church is not infallible, and cannot always be trusted:

The history of the RCC has been that on 35 occasions there has been more than one pope at the head. At certain times, the popes disagreed with each other. Who do you follow? Who was right?

Pope Honorius was condemned for teaching heresy by the Sixth General Council? What about those that followed him? Where was the Holy Spirit?

Even if you make the claim that the Holy Spirt can only guide them, it’s obvious that that guidance is not always followed.

You would do well to heed the words of Paul:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil. 2:12

Work out your own salvation using the Scripture and prayer as your guide, developing a personal relationship with God, through the Holy Spirit.