Why I rejected Sola Scriptura

[bob]

Shibboleth:

By what authority do you accept that the RC has made an infallable decision on the issue? It comes down to you making the ultimate choice.

**
JESUS CHRIST!**

Matt 28:16-20

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If you accept Sola Scriptura then you have to accept this!

 

[II_Paradox_II]

bob:

And by what authority do you accept that the Deuterocanoicals are not inspired?
And by what authority do you accept the rest?

The general consensus of the faithful over time, internal evidence, external evidence, the testimony of the spirit, subjective experience, etc…

ken

 

[Shibboleth]

**
JESUS CHRIST!**

Matt 28:16-20

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If you accept Sola Scriptura then you have to accept this!

He is not just talking to the Bishop of Rome here is he.

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

Because I am a fallible human being I could make the wrong decision but if I carefully and intelligently choose my path with the help of God then that chance of error is lessened.

So no not 50/50

But you did say you chose nothing!

OK so you chose something, guided by gifts from and prayer to God. However, your prayers and answered by God, but 2000 years of the church fathers and Christiandom must have been very sinful for God to have guided them erroneously?

Did He break His promise?:

Matt 28:16-20

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

or does he only gave that promise to you?

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

He is not just talking to the Bishop of Rome here is he.

All His eleven (11) disciples including the Bishop of Rome and their successors!

Surely, it cannot be you?

 

[Shibboleth]

bob:

But you did say you chose nothing!

OK so you chose something, guided by gifts from and prayer to God. However, your prayers and answered by God, but 2000 years of the church fathers and Christiandom must have been very sinful for God to have guided them erroneously?

Did He break His promise?:

Matt 28:16-20

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

or does he only gave that promise to you?

I see nothing in this verse that states that they will not make errors.

 

[Shibboleth]

bob:

All His eleven (11) disciples including the Bishop of Rome and their successors!

Surely, it cannot be you?

Nor did I claim that it was, you greatly misunderstand Sola Scriptura - perhaps you should read this thread from its beginning.

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

I see nothing in this verse that states that they will not make errors.

If you pray to God for guidance, you expect the right answer.

BUT WHEN CHRIST IS WITH THE APOSTLES “TILL THE END OF TIME,” AND “TEACHING THEM WHAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU” THEY CAN BE WRONG?

You have just called Christ a liar!

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

Nor did I claim that it was, you greatly misunderstand Sola Scriptura - perhaps you should read this thread from its beginning.

No, I did not misunderstand your version of Sola Scriptura.

In short, Scripture + whatever is considered inspired but Scripture prevails.

However you have rejected what scripture says in Matthew and accepted questionable Protestant “inspired” teaching.
Scripture here does not prevail for you, unfortunately.

As the saying goes “You can bring a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink”

Goodnight!

 

[Shibboleth]

bob:

If you pray to God for guidance, you expect the right answer.

BUT WHEN CHRIST IS WITH THE APOSTLES “TILL THE END OF TIME,” AND “TEACHING THEM WHAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU” THEY CAN BE WRONG?

You have just called Christ a liar!

You are definately full of angst.

Do you expect every prayer that you make to be answered? I do not. And since he is talking to all of the apostles in this verse he is not just talking to The Rock… look back in history – have Bishops made mistakes?

Please in your own words tell me what this verse means.

 

[SteveG]

II Paradox II:

The general consensus of the faithful over time, internal evidence, external evidence, the testimony of the spirit, subjective experience, etc…

so yo believe Christ left us no sure way of accessing objective truth and morality? This thinking leads to moral relatvisim. Why did He bother coming then? So that he could die for our sins and then we’d all spend the next few thousands years being confused as to what we are supposed to do. That’s how the world was before he came. Did He intend to change nothing for us in this regards?

 

[Shibboleth]

BOB you have read Galatians - Chapter 2, have you not?

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

You are definately full of angst.

Do you expect every prayer that you make to be answered? I do not. And since he is talking to all of the apostles in this verse he is not just talking to The Rock… look back in history – have Bishops made mistakes?

Please in your own words tell me what this verse means.

1. You claim that you are granted the gifts of intelligence and guided by prayer (not 50/50? Does that not mean God answers you correctly? That you are inspired? Or does that mean you are wrong most of the time?) that is why you have chosen to be a Protestant.
   I would rather believe in 2000 years of church fathers’ teachings than your gifts and inspirations… 2000/<100?. You seem to keep forgetting what you said earlier and the reason for my response.
2. You do not even believe what the scripture tells you in plain language…
3. You even deny Christ’s promise…
4. The Catholic Church NEVER said the popes and bishops are without error - go and read about the dogma on infallibility. newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

Goodnight.

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

BOB you have read Galatians - Chapter 2, have you not?

The Pope, Peter or otherwise are not infallible when expressing their personal opinions.

Again see reference on infallibility.
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

 

[Shibboleth]

bob:

The Pope, Peter or otherwise are not infallible when expressing their personal opinions.

Again see reference on infallibility.
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

I am aware of one is fallible and one is not according to the Catholic Church. Interestingly enough, I have a Catholic Priest who has become a bit of a mentor to me on this message board system. He e-mailed me just a few minutes ago.

Although he does believe in the infallibility of the Magisterium he does not agree with your interpretation of the verse in question.

Who is right you or the Catholic Priest.

 

[SteveG]

Shibboleth:

I am aware of one is fallible and one is not according to the Catholic Church. Interestingly enough, I have a Catholic Priest who has become a bit of a mentor to me on this message board system. He e-mailed me just a few minutes ago.

Although he does believe in the infallibility of the Magisterium he does not agree with your interpretation of the verse in question.

Who is right you or the Catholic Priest.

It doesn’t really matter. Only matters to us how the Magesterium would weigh in. Any personal speculations or interpretations are just private musings for interest of discussion. I am guessing bob would toss his interpretation if it contradicted what the magesterium taught. I know I would.

 

[II_Paradox_II]

SteveG:

so yo believe Christ left us no sure way of accessing objective truth and morality? This thinking leads to moral relatvisim. Why did He bother coming then? So that he could die for our sins and then we’d all spend the next few thousands years being confused as to what we are supposed to do. That’s how the world was before he came. Did He intend to change nothing for us in this regards?

Steve -

My epistemic view is quite different from yours but it is far from relatvism. If you reread the posts in this thread you can see that. My argument is that the common epistemic view articulated by many on this board only seems infallibly certain because those who use it are applying it’s principles prejudicially (with double-standards). Because of this, the other reasonable options available are the more moderate view I espuse or a general church infallibility view espoused by other posters on this board such as Magnaminity in threads such as this (I actually hold to some of the principles he holds to as well, but not as broadly as he does):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=9363.

I argue for certainty of knowledge, but not infallible certainty because this view I would consider to be unworkable. These two concepts are very different.

ken

ken

 

[bob]

Shibboleth:

BOB you have read Galatians - Chapter 2, have you not?

Have you read Acts 15:1-35?

Peter makes an infallible teaching to the universal church after consulting with the church leaders.

Council of Jerusalem.

 

[Shibboleth]

SteveG:

It doesn’t really matter. Only matters to us how the Magesterium would weigh in. Any personal speculations or interpretations are just private musings for interest of discussion. I am guessing bob would toss his interpretation if it contradicted what the magesterium taught. I know I would.

I completely understand this…. But if Bob asks a question for Protestants he must expect a Protestant to show up.

 

[SteveG]

II Paradox II:

Steve -

My epistemic view is quite different from yours but it is far from relatvism. If you reread the posts in this thread you can see that. My argument is that the common epistemic view articulated by many on this board only seems infallibly certain because those who use it are applying it’s principles prejudicially (with double-standards). Because of this, the other reasonable options available are the more moderate view I espuse or a general church infallibility view espoused by other posters on this board such as Magnaminity in threads such as this (I actually hold to some of the principles he holds to as well, but not as broadly as he does):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=9363.

I argue for certainty of knowledge, but not infallible certainty because this view I would consider to be unworkable. These two concepts are very different.

Paradox:

I think we have already agreed to the fact that personal judgement must ultimately be used here, and I think that I can only restate things I’ve said previously. I used my personal judgement to evaluate the claims of authority the Church made in the same way you evaluate the authority of scripture. No argument here.

But when it comes to the **particulars **of actual questions on faith and morals, the system of authority your personal judgement has led you to, does indeed leave one in the position of relativism. The system of authority I have chosen does not. I am not sure how you can deny this. Look at any moral issue of today, and the Protestant world speaks with thousands of voices based on the system of authority you subscribe to. While the Catholic church members may not individually accept the voice of the Magesterium, there is indeed, in the end, only one voice which speaks authoritatively. Again, the question comes down to what we beleive Christ intended based on our judgement.

P.S.
I am curioius of the meaning of your username. Mind sharing?