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Shibboleth
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It comes down to how you define fractured and Church. A river has many tributaries.
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RNRobert
Guest
I define fractured as:
One denomination saying you must be baptized to be saved and other saying you don’t.
One denomination saying Jesus is really present in the Eucharist and one saying it’s only a memorial supper.
One denomination saying you can’t lose your salvation and another saying yes you can.
One denomination saying that people are predestined to heaven and hell and another saying that people chose to be saved or damned.
Christians who claim to love the Lord and believe in the Bible, yet cannot agree on what the Bible teaches, nor will they meet in the same building to worship.
The Catholic church has many Rites and traditions, but they are all in agreement regarding doctrine.
I define the Church as the body of Christ. II Paradox II (and I’m sure you and many other sincere Protestants) agrees with me that the division of Christianity is a shame. As St. Paul asks the Corinthians “Is Christ divided (1 Cor 1:13)?” One could almost borrow the previous verse to say "I am of Luther, I am of Calvin, I am of Wesley, etc, etc), Which is what Protestantism is today and what Paul condemned.
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Shibboleth
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Catholic’s and Lutheran’s agree on this aspect - and yes their are exceptions.
Once again we agree but with a minor difference.
Once again we agree.
I think you mean that we can choose to be damned. We cannot choose to be saved that is the act of God’s Grace not because of our actions – and Lutheran’s and Catholic’s agree on this also. We have a minor disagreement about Purgatory verses faith and works but not salvation.
This is a problem and I agree…
Yes it is very very sad. I do not think that we are separated in Heaven and we should do on Earth as it is in Heaven.
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jjanderson
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Shibboleth
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I think that this is due more to the fallibility of man and not necessarily sola scriptura. These same things could have come about without this concept. I think that people have put too much faith on these words and failed to realize that we are not all Popes. That being said, of course the Catholic Church has less dissemination because what they must accept as infallible. I see this as maybe a large group of people following the fallibleness of one person. More cohesion but not necessarily perfect.
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hlgomez
Guest
RNROBERT, YOU DID A WONDERFUL RESEARCH!:tiphat:
Keep up the good work!
Protestants will be enlightened with the real history not based on hearsay, or “copy-paste” history.
Pio
Keep up the good work!
Protestants will be enlightened with the real history not based on hearsay, or “copy-paste” history.
Pio
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jjanderson
Guest
Well…sort of.
“Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undersrved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divin nature and of eternal life.” CCC 1996
Justification establishes COOPERATION between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent." CCC 193
“Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification…But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Rom 6:19, 22
Peace in Christ +
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James1234
Guest
I am Catholic and my wife is Pentecostal. We live together in harmony but then we do have disagreements about what I believe and what she believes. RNRobert couldn’t say it even better. Because everytime I challenge my wife on her Pentecostal beliefs she has a hard time backing up what her faith is. She believes we shouldn’t pray for saints and Mary and only pray to God directly. I explained to her that Catholics have tradition and that tradition has been passed for centuries. Her church didnt even get developed only but just a few years.
It is ashame that the Pentecostals still believe that we worship saints and Mary and it is not so. We venerate them and use them as examples to further increase our faith to the Blessed Trinity. This doesnt hurt my faith, it makes it stronger.
It hurts me a lot to hear that the Catholic Church gets bashed from Protestants about our Catholic Bible. If it weren’t for the Catholics, I wouldn’t be typing this message. The Catholics, protected, nourished and spread the good news of the Lord. The Catholic Bible has been through tough times, the Holy War, WWI and WWII, earthquakes, etc and it is still being used today. It makes me mad that WE CATHOLICS nourished and protect the bible and now IT IS USED AGAINST US!!!
When I go to my wife’s church, you go inside and sit down. The minister starts and greets everybody and states “the holy spirit is in the room right now” No sacraments, no rituals. After he talks and states lets pray for the dead, the next hour is one hour of music and one hour preaching. Again no sacraments, no holy eucharist, nothing. What made me mad is when I was at my wife’s church on Mother’s Day, the minister didn’t mention one bit of Jesus’ mother Mary. He will talk about all the women in the old testament like Rebecca and other Old testament females mentioned but no Blessed Virgin Mary. If it wasn’t for Mary,
man’s salvation would be gone.
Jesus is not the author of one church, not the author of confusion. Jesus did not come up and make all these 30,000 denominations. He established one church and that is the Catholic Church. People don’t like to hear that but that is the truth. We are the only religion that can traced back to Jesus Christ himself.
Scripture is not the only basis of truth.
RNRobert will back my comment up for sure.
It is ashame that the Pentecostals still believe that we worship saints and Mary and it is not so. We venerate them and use them as examples to further increase our faith to the Blessed Trinity. This doesnt hurt my faith, it makes it stronger.
It hurts me a lot to hear that the Catholic Church gets bashed from Protestants about our Catholic Bible. If it weren’t for the Catholics, I wouldn’t be typing this message. The Catholics, protected, nourished and spread the good news of the Lord. The Catholic Bible has been through tough times, the Holy War, WWI and WWII, earthquakes, etc and it is still being used today. It makes me mad that WE CATHOLICS nourished and protect the bible and now IT IS USED AGAINST US!!!
When I go to my wife’s church, you go inside and sit down. The minister starts and greets everybody and states “the holy spirit is in the room right now” No sacraments, no rituals. After he talks and states lets pray for the dead, the next hour is one hour of music and one hour preaching. Again no sacraments, no holy eucharist, nothing. What made me mad is when I was at my wife’s church on Mother’s Day, the minister didn’t mention one bit of Jesus’ mother Mary. He will talk about all the women in the old testament like Rebecca and other Old testament females mentioned but no Blessed Virgin Mary. If it wasn’t for Mary,
man’s salvation would be gone.
Jesus is not the author of one church, not the author of confusion. Jesus did not come up and make all these 30,000 denominations. He established one church and that is the Catholic Church. People don’t like to hear that but that is the truth. We are the only religion that can traced back to Jesus Christ himself.
Scripture is not the only basis of truth.
RNRobert will back my comment up for sure.
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RNRobert
Guest
No one claims the Catholic Church is perfect, nor does the Pope claim to be perfect. Our stance is this: We believe the church to be the Body of Christ with Jesus himself as our head, and as such we believe that Jesus, through the intervention of the Holy Spirit, will not allow his Church to teach error. If the church is capable of teaching error, then I think that is like saying the Body of Christ has been decapitated. THIS is what has happened with Protestantism, and why many protestant churches no longer even BELIEVE in the Bible or the divinity of Jesus. If you reject the infallibility of the Church to teach true doctrine, then you will inevitably fall into the trap of subjectivism, which is where much of Protestantism is today.
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RNRobert
Guest
If we are not separated in Heaven, then why are we disunited now?
Let me propose a parable to you:
THE PARABLE OF THE CUBIT
I remember learning about different types of measurements in the 3rd and 4th grades. One of them was the cubit, which we were told was used in ancient times (it’s mentioned in the OT). The cubit was approximately 18-22 inches long, but it was based on measuring from a person’s elbow to his middle finger tip. The problem is, very few people have them same length arm, so if you have a bunch of workers working on a big construction project (say, the Great Pyramids) all using their own arm length to determine a cubit, you’ll get a lobsided mess. In order to prevent this, the ruling monarch would have his arm measured, and a gold staff measuring that length would be the official cubit measurement for the life of the monarch.
The meaning of the parable is this: without a set standard, confusion will reign. Protestants, by rejecting a defined standard, have made a mess of the Church of God.
Non-Catholics believe that the doctrine of Papal infallibilty is a deterrent to ecumenism. That might be believable if Protestants own efforts at ecumenism haven’t been so futile. Paradox said on this thread that the 30,000 plus Protestant sects don’t all contradict each other, some of the different churches came about due to ethnic or geographical separations. This is true, However I think both of you will agree with me that:
*]There are still too many conflicting denominations
*]Considering the trend of Protestantism from the outset, that number will only increase, not decrease
Protestant attempts at ecumenism have resulted in organizations like the World Council of Churches, which water down Christian belief so much as to be meaningless.
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Juniper
Guest
You said…“All that sola scriptura means is that if you are on a desert island and all that you have is a Bible then you are doing O.K. because with careful study, heavy praying, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit you have enough.”
Don’t know if I agree with this. Look at the life of Edgar Cayce, a man so inspired by the Bible that he read it once for each year of his life. He is now known as one of the modern-day gurus of reincarnation and has many followers.
Irene
Don’t know if I agree with this. Look at the life of Edgar Cayce, a man so inspired by the Bible that he read it once for each year of his life. He is now known as one of the modern-day gurus of reincarnation and has many followers.
Irene
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Count_Chocula
Guest
You would if he told you what it meant.
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Shibboleth
Guest
In response to the two comments above…
First my father has tried to explain to me many things that I will probably never understand.
Second in reference to Edgar Cayce and the island… My point was that the Bible is sufficient but that does not mean that people are not limited by their ability to understand it.
Edgar Cayce was not only limited in his ability - he also chose to deny and ignore large portions of the Bible. Beyond that his works were a fraud. I do not know how anyone can have an understanding of the Bible and still believe in things like “Crossing Over.”
I can have book on how to assemble a 30-06 rifle in front of me and all of the necessary parts to do so. Even though the things in my presence are sufficient to do the task I am still confined by my limitations. Some people have the ability to look at the book and parts and with little difficulty assemble the final product, some people require years of study before they can do the task, some never will have the ability, and some will think they do and assemble it improperly.
This is why Protestants ask theologians and priests for clarification and attend Bible studies. Some Catholic individuals have asked why we do such things since we abide by Sola Scriptura. This frustrates me because it shows a major misunderstanding of the concept.
First my father has tried to explain to me many things that I will probably never understand.
Second in reference to Edgar Cayce and the island… My point was that the Bible is sufficient but that does not mean that people are not limited by their ability to understand it.
Edgar Cayce was not only limited in his ability - he also chose to deny and ignore large portions of the Bible. Beyond that his works were a fraud. I do not know how anyone can have an understanding of the Bible and still believe in things like “Crossing Over.”
I can have book on how to assemble a 30-06 rifle in front of me and all of the necessary parts to do so. Even though the things in my presence are sufficient to do the task I am still confined by my limitations. Some people have the ability to look at the book and parts and with little difficulty assemble the final product, some people require years of study before they can do the task, some never will have the ability, and some will think they do and assemble it improperly.
This is why Protestants ask theologians and priests for clarification and attend Bible studies. Some Catholic individuals have asked why we do such things since we abide by Sola Scriptura. This frustrates me because it shows a major misunderstanding of the concept.
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MariaG
Guest
Shibboleth,
I do understand frustration when what you believe is misrepresented. But to be fair, there are some Christians who believe that they do not need anyone but themselves to interpret Scripture. I understand you (and many others!) do not believe that.
Here is what I do not understand about your belief. You do believe you need help of theologians to understand. But you reject the majority of those theologians that lived for 1500 years and insert those who lived a mere 500 years ago. I can (actually I can’t, this is an area I am studying, but others can!) show you where Protestant theology contradicts theologians of 100 ad. Some say that your guys follow Scripture. But I say my guys do too. So I guess the question becomes Why are your guys more right than my guys?
God Bless
I do understand frustration when what you believe is misrepresented. But to be fair, there are some Christians who believe that they do not need anyone but themselves to interpret Scripture. I understand you (and many others!) do not believe that.
Here is what I do not understand about your belief. You do believe you need help of theologians to understand. But you reject the majority of those theologians that lived for 1500 years and insert those who lived a mere 500 years ago. I can (actually I can’t, this is an area I am studying, but others can!) show you where Protestant theology contradicts theologians of 100 ad. Some say that your guys follow Scripture. But I say my guys do too. So I guess the question becomes Why are your guys more right than my guys?
God Bless
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mrS4ntA
Guest
:yup: frankly, I see the Protestants as a child shoving his grandma away saying, “you know NOTHING about life!”.
This “grandma” happens to be 2000 years old.
add: not just “any” grandma, either, but a veteran grandma who’s survived persecutions, a grandma who’s witnessed the rise and falls of nations and great empires.
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Shibboleth
Guest
mrS4ntA said:
Not at all…
We always look for wisdom in our “Grandfathers” but we know that one day we will be grandfathers also and that we have and will make mistakes. I want my grandchildren to learn from my wisdom and my mistakes.
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MariaG
Guest
But where does that leave me? If my church fathers made mistakes, your church fathers make mistakes, why should I not reject all that and be truly Bible alone? Or how am I to judge IF there is a mistake?
God Bless
God Bless
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Shibboleth
Guest
It all depends on where you direct your faith. Do you need to know all things absolutely? I do not. Do you put your faith in the Holy Spirit guiding you or guiding others? I say put it in both but put it in God.
Know that although people can make mistakes they can also get things correct. Put your trust in God that he will not lead you astray. That through his Grace you will understand all that is necessary.
I worked with the Developmentally disabled for many years. Some of them had a level of faith that I could never reach. They have the ability to enter the kingdom of heaven as a child would. With me everything seems to be whether or not I believe in something with them they knew. I believe that God exists they knew that God exists. They had no knowledge of the Magisterium and some of them might have known who the Pope was but it mattered little. Their faith was in God and God’s grace was in them. They did not need to know everything absolutely – just to the best of the ability in which God gave them. Their limitations were irrelevant.
I know that those have made mistakes before me and people will make mistakes after me because of our limitations. I have faith that the Holy Spirit will not lead me astray as long as I do not deny God.
So where does that leave me…. putting all of my faith in God.
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MariaG
Guest
Shibboleth,
I too put my faith in God. I came from a Bible alone church. I faithfully read the Bible, studied and asked the Holy Spirit to guide my steps. Thankfully, He truly led me, and it was to the Catholic Church. I truly believe God made one Church His pillar of truth. Coming from a Church that I did, I could have just as easily been misled into the Morman church, JW or some such other Church that claims to have the truth and be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be leading all the different denominations, and so I have to put my trust in God that He is able to keep the Church He established free from error. I am glad you put your faith in God, too. And Although, we probably will never agree, I pray we will both keep our faith in Christ unto the end and see each other in Heaven!
God Bless
I too put my faith in God. I came from a Bible alone church. I faithfully read the Bible, studied and asked the Holy Spirit to guide my steps. Thankfully, He truly led me, and it was to the Catholic Church. I truly believe God made one Church His pillar of truth. Coming from a Church that I did, I could have just as easily been misled into the Morman church, JW or some such other Church that claims to have the truth and be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be leading all the different denominations, and so I have to put my trust in God that He is able to keep the Church He established free from error. I am glad you put your faith in God, too. And Although, we probably will never agree, I pray we will both keep our faith in Christ unto the end and see each other in Heaven!
God Bless
B
bamark
Guest
Luther chose to leave out the 7 books of the Old Testament - Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Baruch, Wisdom, & 1st & 2nd Maccabees because 2nd Maccabees taught the doctrine of Purgatory. He also left out the New Testament “apochrypha” of Hebrews, James Jude and Revelation. James conflicted with his idea of Sola Fide - Faith alone - and Revelation, according to him, was not inspired by God. Luther also re-wrote Matthew 3:28 to read that man is justified by Faith alone. I don’t think Luther was that careful or conservative. I think in trying to introduce reforms into the Church (the 95 theses) he - quote “threw the baby out with the bathwater”.
Mark
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