Why I think gay marriage may turn out good for the USA

[frobert]

I’d be careful about ranking sins on a Catholic forum. Homosexual acts are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.

Yes, you are absolutely right that one should be careful about ranking sins. When you say that “homosexual acts are sins that cry to the heaven for vengeance.”

What ACTUALLY are the the homosexual acts you refer to?

To understand your meaning you need to be specific. The meaning of homosexuality has been revised many times since biblical days as the bible itself has gone through many interpretations and re-interpretations. It is necessary to know which period and definition of the homosexual acts you refer to if one is to make any sense from your statement. This should be obvious to an engineer.

What specific sources are you obtaining your vengeance cry from?

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

I don’t take pleasure in God judging any nation, and frankly God does not take pleasure in sending people to hell Eze 18, 33. Not every judgment of God is destroying people, he has various ways to deal with people. I wonder, how people today would react to a prophet of God being sent to warn them? No, I am not a prophet.

I am just looking at the prophets of the Bible and the fact that God does judge nations.

I think sacrificing one’s children to a false god is just as bad as abortion today.

Exodus 34:6
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,

Jonah 4:2
He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It is not unreasonable to wonder, at what point God will judge a nation and point out a possible boundary for such. And, I rejoice at the likelihood of people repenting in a time of judgment.

S&G is a deeper issues than just gay marriage,

Ezekiel 16:49-50, Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

I wonder how Canaanite culture would compare to ours today?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I never said they weren’t.

Then you singled out homosexual acts. You warned against ranking sins (I don’t understand why you included that comment) then specifically said

Homosexual acts are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.

when the sins that BEL listed were as well.

If God really has a bigger problem with gay sex over child abuse, genocide, rape…then I might be done with God. Aquinas didn’t always get it right.

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

forgive me, why would “Homosexual acts are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance”?

What am I missing?

What does Aquinas have to do with this?

Thanks
Daniel

 

[Bruised_Reed]

forgive me, why would “Homosexual acts are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance”?

What am I missing?

What does Aquinas have to do with this?

Thanks
Daniel

From the Catechism

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143

Wikipedia actually expands on this topic well (at this time).

As to your question “why?” I don’t know exactly why, but it’s clear that these are very serious offenses, and when it’s fleshed out a bit more it’s easier to see. Just like the 10 commandments, compare them to an examination of conscience and the latter is more thorough even though the 10 Commandments covers them all.

And my Aquinas comment - just a little beef I have with a Saint and Doctor of the Church on one or two issues. Don’t pay me no nevermind.

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

Thanks, how do I check the footnotes for references?

 

[Kamaduck]

Can we just in general stop expecting God to smite anybody? He’ll end things when he’s ready. There’s no need to rush him.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Thanks, how do I check the footnotes for references?

In the Catechism? Go to vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM and find the paragraph or section you want and click on the number.

This vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6D.HTM links to the cry out for vengeance part.

Is that what you were looking for?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

forgive me, why would “Homosexual acts are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance”?

What am I missing?

What does Aquinas have to do with this?

Thanks
Daniel

You can read these two linked discussions

Why Are Homosexual Acts Wrong

4 Sins that Cry to Heaven for Vengeance
,

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

Thank You
Daniel

 

[edwest2]

Or, perhaps God doesn’t really care and America will continue going on, broadening our respect for individual rights and freedoms – which is what the word liberalism actually means.

Liberalism does not mean that. No one has to get anyone’s permission to do what they want. That’s the part that makes no sense. “Everything is everything.”? No. There is right and wrong and it will remain the foundation of right living and for the good of all.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kal2012]

Liberalism tends to refer to free thought, free markets.

Most of the classical thought on Liberalism was developed in the 19th century in response to the power of the state (European monarchies) in relation to the average citizen.

Liberalism isn’t “everyone gets to do what they want”. That’s libertarianism. Closely related, but not the same thing.

Classic liberalism is about granting individual’s rights (vote, property, etc), legally being able to make choices that the State disagrees with, being able to trade and do business more freely, having a free press and no State sponsored religion. People are able to trade ideas and publish books without fear of the government.

Classic Liberalism is a lot more rational in that it acknowledges that individuals have duties and relationships to their community. Libertarians tend to believe that they are their own island and that nothing they do will ever have an impact on the rest of us.

This is why I can’t be a libertarian.

 

[Thorns]

Then you singled out homosexual acts. You warned against ranking sins (I don’t understand why you included that comment) then specifically said when the sins that BEL listed were as well.

If God really has a bigger problem with gay sex over child abuse, genocide, rape…then I might be done with God. Aquinas didn’t always get it right.

Cmon, the thread is about gay marriage. Although heterosexuals engage in sodomy too, so do.homosexuals and this thread is about that. Hence why it was emphasized.

The sodomy of heterosexuals and homosexuals cry out for vengeance alike. And all those other atrocities cry out too, but the glorification of sodomy might just be the final nail in the coffin. Who knows.

 

[mikekle]

Cmon, the thread is about gay marriage. Although heterosexuals engage in sodomy too, so do.homosexuals and this thread is about that. Hence why it was emphasized.

The sodomy of heterosexuals and homosexuals cry out for vengeance alike. And all those other atrocities cry out too, but the glorification of sodomy might just be the final nail in the coffin. Who knows.

I think you are right about this.

I know sodomy is not a crime today, as it was de-criminalized few years back, but I just wonder if the CC fought to keep it illegal, or if they even made a statement about this when it was being debated?

It would be highly strange if the CC just let it happen and did not at least make some effort to keep sodomy a crime.

 

[Thorns]

It would be highly strange if the CC just let it happen and did not at least make some effort to keep sodomy a crime.

I’m not sure the Church would fight to keep sodomy a crime. God respects our free will and so does the Church. What the Church is against is an official and public glorification of disordered acts, which leads to far more harm to society than private sin IMO.

 

[Rin]

I think you are right about this.

I know sodomy is not a crime today, as it was de-criminalized few years back, but I just wonder if the CC fought to keep it illegal, or if they even made a statement about this when it was being debated?

It would be highly strange if the CC just let it happen and did not at least make some effort to keep sodomy a crime.

Actually, Italy (or more accurately, Tuscany) was one of the first countries in the world to relax their sodomy laws, as early as 1786 (when the penalty was changed from death to prison and hard labor). It was completely decriminalized in all of Italy in 1889.

The Papal States had sodomy laws (though I can’t find any information on to which extent they were enforced), but to my knowledge the Vatican State does not; its secular laws are more or less the same as those of Italy in the twenties.

Among other Catholic countries, Poland actually never had sodomy laws at all. When the country lost its independence in 1795, the sodomy laws of their occupants came into force, however. When they regained their independence, the laws were kept in place, but never enforced. They were removed completely in 1932.

France seems to have had harsh sodomy laws before the revolution, but, hey, it’s France.

Spain seems to be a bit more all over the place with different policies by different regimes.

I can’t find much about Austria, but they did have sodomy laws, from what I can gather.

But in all these cases, the Church did not to my knowledge fight abolition of sodomy laws, and She did not require states to introduce or enforce them, even in the Middle Ages. In modern Europe, such laws were more common, and more fervently enforced, in Protestant states, than in Catholic ones. The Franco regime was an exception to this, but I think that has more to do with the political system than with the Church…

 

[mikekle]

Actually, Italy (or more accurately, Tuscany) was one of the first countries in the world to relax their sodomy laws, as early as 1786 (when the penalty was changed from death to prison and hard labor). It was completely decriminalized in all of Italy in 1889.

The Papal States had sodomy laws (though I can’t find any information on to which extent they were enforced), but to my knowledge the Vatican State does not; its secular laws are more or less the same as those of Italy in the twenties.

Among other Catholic countries, Poland actually never had sodomy laws at all. When the country lost its independence in 1795, the sodomy laws of their occupants came into force, however. When they regained their independence, the laws were kept in place, but never enforced. They were removed completely in 1932.

France seems to have had harsh sodomy laws before the revolution, but, hey, it’s France.

Spain seems to be a bit more all over the place with different policies by different regimes.

I can’t find much about Austria, but they did have sodomy laws, from what I can gather.

But in all these cases, the Church did not to my knowledge fight abolition of sodomy laws, and She did not require states to introduce or enforce them, even in the Middle Ages. In modern Europe, such laws were more common, and more fervently enforced, in Protestant states, than in Catholic ones. The Franco regime was an exception to this, but I think that has more to do with the political system than with the Church…

hmmm, that is strange, the CC clearly is trying to get abortion made illegal again, I wonder why they didnt fight to keep Sodomy a crime too, or even now, fighting to get the law changed back, just as they are doing with abortion? double standard?

 

[CrossofChrist]

hmmm, that is strange, the CC clearly is trying to get abortion made illegal again, I wonder why they didnt fight to keep Sodomy a crime too, or even now, fighting to get the law changed back, just as they are doing with abortion? double standard?

Those are two totally different things. Abortion is not a private act. A more fitting comparison with that would be making gay marriage legal. There is no way to regulate whether two people have engaged in sodomy. Imagine if masturbation was made illegal–how do you enforce that law?

 

[Rin]

hmmm, that is strange, the CC clearly is trying to get abortion made illegal again, I wonder why they didnt fight to keep Sodomy a crime too, or even now, fighting to get the law changed back, just as they are doing with abortion? double standard?

Red herring.

The two issues are vastly different, not comparable and unrelated.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Let’s face it, the USA is past due for God’s judgment. If we have gay marriage, then maybe God will finally judge America. When there is a judgment of God, then people may turn to Him and thus have a revival — thus putting an end to liberalism.

Ummm…the USA is far better than most countries in the world…gay marriage is wrong but think about the rest of the planet and the horrible things that happen. Not only do we not have a war going on or internal strife or as extreme poverty as other places, but even among first world countries our laws about gay “marriage” are as a whole relatively good. Over half of the USA has banned gay “marriage”, and even if all the court rulings for various states are upheld 2/5 of the country still has gay marriage banned.