Why is a Homosexual prevented from changing his sexuality to heterosexual?

[exnihilo]

Hi,
therapy is a Protestant solution to a spiritual sickness, psychology helps change the way you behave, psychiatry helps change the way you think but when Christ is not included in the solution, it avails nothing!

I know you explain what you meant in the subsequent post but this seems a bit too disparaging. But I must say I have just recently realized that there is a great truth to what you say. I realized that typically Protestants say there is no need for personal confession to a priest but the pastor might often recommend a counselor, who is a type of confessor, for your spiritual or mental health. Of course the priest is not supposed to be everything. For instance we dont say there should be no doctors because miraculous healing can be done. The nature of therapy is confessing the truth about ourselves to someone. That does avail something, but I would say without Christ it is lacking in power. If it availed nothing it would be of no use and I think even therapy without God can be helpful, though not as helpful. That Protestants tend to recognize it as being helpful does suggest a problem in their consideration of the priesthood.

Another disparaging comment that I think is unwarranted. There are plenty of Protestant missions to the poor. And I do not think it warranted at all to say that in Protestantism is a particular encouragement of greed. It is almost as if you are saying Protestants invented greed. Man’s fallen nature makes him greedy and no one is exempt from that.

 

[francisca]

i did have a time of innocence as a child. I had no notions of sex at all. At that point in time how could either label heterosexual or homosexual apply?

The objective is to limit all sinful acts and thoughts. A person can know they have changed when they have less sinful acts and thoughts of any kind. I do not believe the goal for homosexuals is precisely to change them but is more accurately described as putting away disordered thoughts and acts.

i think that exnihilo post has made a very good point. i’d like to add that homosexuals (or even people with SSA) who claim that “they have had SSA tendency since childhood” are making a questionable claim (eventhough they may be sincere in their thinking, their thinking may be false), because a person who has not mature in his/ her sexuality does not really know what sex is. Thus children (or even teen) are not fully capable in deciding whether “an attraction” is something sexual. Such thinking may come as their own interpretation about their past** after**they have considered/ accepted the concept of homosexuality.

In turn then a claim that “homosexuals were born that way” is also queationable.

Moreover, a person’s fantasy do not decide who he is. So, it’s about how one control himself and say NO when something has gone too far. All people have to do the same in this area, nothing heroic about it.
Ofcourse if a bad habit has become too deep, it would be more difficult too root out, nevertheless it’s inevitable, or one may stray further and further from all the good things God has provided for him since the beginning.

Bad fantasy ruin people’s mind and spirit, and is a lie. Homosexuality is a pseudo-sexuality, it’s not real, eventhough it may seem very real.

in my opinion, all physically fit people were born heterosexual, but they become homosexual because they have been deceived by something/ somebody somehow. So as with other sinful deeds, people can always comeback to to their trueself, the good person God created, leaving behind all those bad deeds and thoughts and pseudo-concept of sexuality.

 

[SteveGC]

It is a protestant tradition that he who dies with the most toys is a winner

This is most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I’d recommend you retract that, or atleast rephrase it in a way that resembles reality. You’ve basically just equated all protestant Christian thought with disordered narcissistic consumerism. Are you sure that’s the line you’re taking?

 

[John_oxios]

This is most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I’d recommend you retract that, or atleast rephrase it in a way that resembles reality. You’ve basically just equated all protestant Christian thought with disordered narcissistic consumerism. Are you sure that’s the line you’re taking?

Sorry, this country was founded on freedom of religion outside the king and the Pope, largely protestant ideals and still is. Read up on the Protestant work ethics this country is founded upon. It didn’t come from Catholicism, we got here too late!

You’re listed as Catholic and recommend I retract my statement? Prove me where this work ethic came from? and I’ll look up some notes of eleven yrs. past when I was a protestant, for ten yrs. prior to reverting back to Catholicism. That’s my experience.

You feel insulted, you ought to be in a protestant bible study and hear the absurdities they say about the Catholic religion… its what drove me back.

God bless,
that’s my :twocents::twocents:
john

 

[SteveGC]

Sorry, this country was founded on freedom of religion outside the king and the Pope, largely protestant ideals and still is. Read up on the Protestant work ethics this country is founded upon. It didn’t come from Catholicism, we got here too late!

You’re listed as Catholic and recommend I retract my statement? Prove me where this work ethic came from? and I’ll look up some notes of eleven yrs. past when I was a protestant, for ten yrs. prior to reverting back to Catholicism. That’s my experience.

You feel insulted, you ought to be in a protestant bible study and hear the absurdities they say about the Catholic religion… its what drove me back.

God bless,
that’s my :twocents::twocents:

        john

I’m not insulted. And I do not deny the concept of the “protestant work ethic”, and how it has influenced the West, and some protestants. But this was not the inference in that post. The inference you made was that it is a tradition of protestantism to amass large quantities of expensive merchandise in order to succeed, at the expense of giving to the needy. That’s not the mentality of the protestant work ethic. The mentality is to devote much time and energy to work, especially charitable work, in order to reveal one’s state of salvation (predestination). And although it is a concept full of misguided belief, it is not a narcissistic goods-gathering concept.

I just thought the “most toys wins” comment was unfair, and not related to the actual concept of the work ethic. I am the son of a man who abides by this work ethic, and although his work has brought him some luxury, the mentality of acquiring as many things as possible is non-existent. My bigger problem seems not unlike your own. As a recent convert to the Church, I have also had to bear the anti-Catholic rhetoric within my own family which often originates from those who contrast their work ethic with the “false work” concept of Catholics.

Peace.

 

[John_oxios]

I’m not insulted. And I do not deny the concept of the “protestant work ethic”, and how it has influenced the West, and some protestants. But this was not the inference in that post. The inference you made was that it is a tradition of protestantism to amass large quantities of expensive merchandise in order to succeed, at the expense of giving to the needy.

That’s not the mentality of the protestant work ethic. The mentality is to devote much time and energy to work, especially charitable work, **in order to reveal one’s state of salvation (predestination). ** And although it is a concept full of misguided belief, it is not a narcissistic goods-gathering concept.

I just thought the “most toys wins” comment was unfair, and not related to the actual concept of the work ethic. I am the son of a man who abides by this work ethic, and although his work has brought him some luxury, the mentality of acquiring as many things as possible is non-existent. My bigger problem seems not unlike your own. As a recent convert to the Church, I have also had to bear the anti-Catholic rhetoric within my own family which often originates from those who contrast their work ethic with the “false work” concept of Catholics.

Peace.

Hi,

seems you added ‘work’ salvation to protestant theology?

Steve G.C. …charitable work, in order to reveal one’s state of salvation (predestination). "

the mentality of acquiring as many things as possible is non-existent."

Let’s ask Bill Gates? how many billions of annual income does a man need? (He’s has 56 billion ) He is known to have fought his way to being #1 in Corporate America, oops excuse me , he’s agnostic.

okay Warren E. Buffett presbyterian…

    But   You've added your spin on my statement... Corporate America is Largely  Protestant...

John D. Rockefeller = baptist, ( As the other Rockefeller’s were)
One of the richest Americans in history, John D. Rockefeller was the founder of the Standard Oil Company and, later, a philanthropist whose wealth bankrolled the Rockefeller Foundation. Hard-working and meticulous, Rockefeller started out small and then made his fortune via hard-nosed and sometimes controversial business tactics, which have since made him an entrepreneurial hero to some, a greedy fiend in the eyes of others. He started in the oil business, and by the end of the century the Standard Oil Trust controlled so many other interests that it fell afoul of anti-trust laws. In 1911 the U.S. Supreme Court called Standard Oil a monopoly and forced the Trust to separate into competing companies. By that time Rockefeller himself was no longer involved in running the business, having devoted himself completely to philanthropy since 1896. He gave away millions to schools, health organizations and civic projects through the Rockefeller Foundation, which endures today.

Henry Ford = Protestant Episcopal …

In 1903 the Ford Motor Company was founded, and in 1908 Ford introduced the Model T. By 1924 10 million Model T cars had been sold and Detroit had become the auto-making capital of America.** Ford remained one of the country’s most famous and influential businessmen until his death in 1947.**

**Thomas Alva Edison **(1847-1931) recognized no power greater than Nature, and spent his life investigating the nature of Nature.

John Pemberton,whose invented Coca-Cola, which invented the modern day Santa Clause and the modern consumerism ideal of ‘you need this’, or ‘you just gotta have it’ or Keep up with the jonses… all protestant promptings.

Politics John Adams- Unitarian

Ben Franklin- Humanist

John Jay Protestant episcopal, He argued unsuccessfully in the provincial convention for a prohibition against Catholics holding office.

Alexander Hamilton: episcopal

Just to name a few. Like i stated this country was founded on Protestant ideals, not Catholic.

God bless,
John

 

[SteveGC]

We are unfortunately sliding way off topic now. Hopefully we can put this to rest soon and get back to the subject at hand.

Hi,

seems you added ‘work’ salvation to protestant theology?

Not “work salvation”, as in you must do work to be saved, but rather “works demonstrate salvation”, as in your salvation is revealed to others by way of your observable works.

Let’s ask Bill Gates?

okay Warren E. Buffett presbyterian…

John D. Rockefeller = baptist,

Henry Ford = Protestant Episcopal …

**Thomas Alva Edison **

John Pemberton,whose invented Coca-Cola, which invented the modern day Santa Clause and the modern consumerism ideal of ‘you need this’, or ‘you just gotta have it’ or Keep up with the jonses… all protestant promptings.

Politics John Adams- Unitarian

Ben Franklin- Humanist

John Jay Protestant episcopal, He argued unsuccessfully in the provincial convention for a prohibition against Catholics holding office.

Alexander Hamilton: episcopal

Just to name a few. Like i stated this country was founded on Protestant ideals, not Catholic.

God bless,
John

I’m not debating that some protestant men might have perverted the concept of the “protestant work ethic”, and opportunistically capitalized on new industry in America. But I have yet to see any proof that this work ethic originated from an idea that worldly things should be amassed. Nor is that the prevalent thought in those that subscribe to this work ethic. The work ethic is about demonstrating salvation through good works…not amassing goods because that’s what a good protestant does.

Please provide a reliable source which validates your theory that the protestant work ethic is centered around the acquisition of as many things as you possibly can acquire.

 

[shaky]

Studies have shown a strong link to genetics. For example, in one well known study, for a gay male sibling: 52% of identical twin brothers are gay; 22% of fraternal twin brothers; and 11% of non twin brothers (matching the general population).

That is a rather strong indication that biology plays a significant role.

All of the respected information from “conversion” programs indicate that they are not successful, even when the person wants to change. This practice is condemned by every psychological and psychiatric association which holds an opinion on the subject.

So, objectively speaking, it is accepted that it is not possible to change one’s sexual orientation, if that is the question you are asking.

Any heterosexual might ponder the question… “Now if the things were reversed, would I be able to change my sexual orientation to be attracted to and fall in love with my own gender?” If the answer is yes, then I would suspect that person is bisexual and not heterosexual.

So if the biology of Genetics shows a strong link and a significant link to the sexual disorder of homosexuality. Would that include all sexual disorders like sexual murderer serial killer, Pedophilia, bestiality?
So your saying its not possible to Change one’s sexual Orientation.
So you are saying everybody who wanted to change in conversion programs failed
So now the practise is condemned by psychologist and psychiatrist associations

Also you have all types of sexual disorders, Male lesbians. All types of sexual fantasy fetishes.etc

Sex is in the Mind. So Its quite quite possible that a homosexual Man is married to a woman as his wife. But has to have homosexual fantasies to be able to perform at sex with her.
Would that be a SIN to have this disordered fantasy while having sex with his wife?
Also with other married couples who have any other disordered sexual fantasies. would that be a Sin?

 

[shaky]

Hi,
therapy is a Protestant solution to a spiritual sickness, psychology helps change the way you behave, psychiatry helps change the way you think but when Christ is not included in the solution, it avails nothing!

Jesus Christ can change our nature anything other than that is unbelief;

God bless,
John

I would say you include christ when seeing a psyciatrist or psycologist like when you see a doctor for any iIlness.
You say Jesus christ can change our nature. So how can a homosexual know he has Changed without involving SIN?

 

[shaky]

You aren’t ever morally required to change what you cannot change. You are only required to do what you can. If you have a psychological disorder by which you have no attraction to the opposite sex, but only to your own, it is accepted that this may be something that just cannot be helped. The Church counsels the faithful to have compassion for that situation and to accept persons who have it as having a trial to cope with.

In the case of a homosexual Catholic, they are expected to avoid the near occasion of sin. They must disavow disordered passions (no matter how these passions torment them, and these can constitute a very great trial) but that doesn’t mean they can magically conjur up normal ones. In that case, they would conduct themselves as do other Catholics who don’t burn with a desire to marry. They remain celibate and are free to devote themselves entirely to the Lord.

It is very important that people who suffer from SSA be fully supported as having a difficult cross to bear. It ought to be made very clear to them that they are very precious to God, and that their service to God in resisting the great temptations He has allowed them to face is pleasing to God. On no account should they be denigrated in any way for having been given a difficult part of our battleline to defend.

I am not saying its a moral obligation for homosexuals to Change and fully support supporting homosexuals in celibacy and being chaste.

It seems the church teachings and the system of Psychiatrists and Psychologists are Against Supporting homosexuals who WANT to Change.
This also includes No support for all sorts of people with all types of sexual disorders who WANT to change.

But Paul said to the single heterosexuals that he would prefer them to be like him but he said not all have the Gift from God like he has. So those that CANNOT control themselves it better for them to MARRY then to burn.

What about a young Homosexuals who cannot control themselves and does not have the same gift of God as Paul. Do they get married to a woman as a wife but have sex with them using their MIND in homosexual fantasy?

 

[EasterJoy]

I am not saying its a moral obligation for homosexuals to Change and fully support supporting homosexuals in celibacy and being chaste.

It seems the church teachings and the system of Psychiatrists and Psychologists are Against Supporting homosexuals who WANT to Change.
This also includes No support for all sorts of people with all types of sexual disorders who WANT to change.

But Paul said to the single heterosexuals that he would prefer them to be like him but he said not all have the Gift from God like he has. So those that CANNOT control themselves it better for them to MARRY then to burn.

What about a young Homosexuals who cannot control themselves and does not have the same gift of God as Paul. Do they get married to a woman as a wife but have sex with them using their MIND in homosexual fantasy?

St. Paul was talking about the management of the fantasies of an ordered sexuality. Besides, even a heterosexual is bound to find a suitable spouse; he or she may not marry only with an eye to indulging passions. Rather, a suitable marriage allows a legitimate means to express ordered sexuality in a fruitful way.

The trial of disordered passions, whether sexual or not, is a great deal more difficult. I think we all have those, although perhaps most of us happen to be under the sway of disordered passions that are more widely tolerated. I mean that if you are owned by lust, your neighbors might be far less tolerant or understanding, hence threads like this. If you are owned by fear, deceit, wrath, greed, sloth, pride, envy, gluttony, fashionable heresy, or willful ignorance, to name a few, it won’t gain you any admirers, but you won’t be made out to be a different sort of human being.

You might say that a homosexual is in much the same unfortunate (one might even say tragic) spot as a heterosexual who falls in love with a person whom he or she cannot have, and because of this cannot give themselves to another. No, such a person should not marry someone else who happens to be free to marry them. It is not fair to the prospective spouse, and it is not faithful to the intention of marriage, which requires mutual self-giving that holds nothing back. Could a person with some tendency towards homosexuality marry? Yes, they could, as long as they could renounce their more automatic desire sufficiently to give themselves without reserve. (A dicey proposition, that, but possible.)

Just as a heterosexual who is in love with a priest or a consecrated virgin or someone already married is not morally obliged to change their feelings about the object of their desire, neither is a homosexual required to change his or her feelings. They are, however, morally bound to refuse to covet what they may not legitimately have. There are different ways to avoid that near occasion of sin; what is important is that it be avoided.

 

[John_oxios]

We are unfortunately sliding way off topic now. Hopefully we can put this to rest soon and get back to the subject at hand. Not “work salvation”, as in you must do work to be saved, but rather “works demonstrate salvation”, as in your salvation is revealed to others by way of your observable works.

I’m not debating that **some protestant men **might have perverted the concept of the “protestant work ethic”, and opportunistically capitalized on new industry in America. But I have yet to see any proof that this work ethic originated from an idea that worldly things should be amassed. Nor is that the prevalent thought in those that subscribe to this work ethic. The work ethic is about demonstrating salvation through good works…not amassing goods because that’s what a good protestant does.

Please provide a reliable source which validates your theory that the protestant work ethic is centered around the acquisition of as many things as you possibly can acquire.

Hi Steve,

Yes we have! gone off the subject.

     Corporate America, everybody wants to be #1 or the CEO, guys rip off billions with little or no jail time.. one big club.

Protestants do not believe nor does the Catholic Church you can earn salvation through good works… they believe in "faith alone’ and in confessing Christ, you can NEVER lose your Salvation.

The Catholic Church believes that in believing and confessing Christ, that, that faith in Him will produce good works towards others in Christ name. Not for our reward here, but by doing these deeds we get grace from God, and he acknowledges these by saying, to us

Mat 25:21 "His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

I’ve got to get to some ten year + old notes, to figure out how and why I have come to that conclusion… But I know this for sure, It’s not Catholic!

I didn’t say all protestants, what I said was it is a protestant work ethic, because that is what this country is founded upon.

God bless,
John

 

[Rock_Happy]

i think that exnihilo post has made a very good point. i’d like to add that homosexuals (or even people with SSA) who claim that “they have had SSA tendency since childhood” are making a questionable claim (eventhough they may be sincere in their thinking, their thinking may be false), because a person who has not mature in his/ her sexuality does not really know what sex is. Thus children (or even teen) are not fully capable in deciding whether “an attraction” is something sexual. Such thinking may come as their own interpretation about their past** after**they have considered/ accepted the concept of homosexuality.

In turn then a claim that “homosexuals were born that way” is also queationable.

Moreover, a person’s fantasy do not decide who he is. So, it’s about how one control himself and say NO when something has gone too far. All people have to do the same in this area, nothing heroic about it.
Ofcourse if a bad habit has become too deep, it would be more difficult too root out, nevertheless it’s inevitable, or one may stray further and further from all the good things God has provided for him since the beginning.

Bad fantasy ruin people’s mind and spirit, and is a lie. Homosexuality is a pseudo-sexuality, it’s not real, eventhough it may seem very real.

in my opinion, all physically fit people were born heterosexual, but they become homosexual because they have been deceived by something/ somebody somehow. So as with other sinful deeds, people can always comeback to to their trueself, the good person God created, leaving behind all those bad deeds and thoughts and pseudo-concept of sexuality.

It is quite common for gay men to report being first sexually attracted to other males between the ages of 4 and 8. I would call that childhood.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Hello Rock Happy,

It is a protestant tradition that he who dies with the most toys is a winner… whereas in the Catholic faith we are to give to the poor and needy when we have more than we need.

Your listed as christian… does that mean Non-Catholic? Is that why we bring up fallen priests? does Baker ring a bell? Swaggert? Benny Hinn? there both still preaching and collecting money, correct? How about openly gay ministers???

God bless,
John

Hmmm… I disagree with much of what you say. For example, if we are to emulate the lifestyle of the Pope, then there seems to be an issue about materialism. Have you been to the Vatican? I have seen the place, had a private tour, and even got to see some of the Pope’s private art collection.

I would agree with you that there are some materialistic protestant sects. Mormonism would be a good example, some of the evangelical sects. I would propose that Quaker teachings may be far less materialistic than what many Catholics are teaching and practicing.

If you are going to point a finger at other Christians, consider that a case could be made that the apostolic line was broken when both popes excommunicated each other a few years back. There is no church or Christian sect which has an irrefutable and unrivaled claim to primacy or truth.

 

[John_oxios]

Hmmm… I disagree with much of what you say. For example, if we are to emulate the lifestyle of the Pope, then there seems to be an issue about materialism. Have you been to the Vatican? I have seen the place, had a private tour, and even got to see some of the Pope’s private art collection.

I would agree with you that there are some materialistic protestant sects. Mormonism would be a good example, some of the evangelical sects. I would propose that Quaker teachings may be far less materialistic than what many Catholics are teaching and practicing.

If you are going to point a finger at other Christians, consider that a case could be made that the apostolic line was broken when both popes excommunicated each other a few years back. There is no church or Christian sect which has an irrefutable and unrivaled claim to primacy or truth.

Hey Rockey,

The Pope is the Spiritual leaderFather on this good Earth, if we were to truly emulate him we’d all be priests. Lifestyle of the Pope, hmmm praying and meditating for hours five times a day?

Most if not all was donated or was commissioned by the Church, and you got to see it and appreciate it for free… anywhere else in the world you would have paid to see it. The Pope does not have a private art collection, it belongs to the Church. And when they were made they weren’t considered to be worth what they are today. And the Church hasn’t stored them, for the sake of having more than other faiths.

Churches like the Temple in the Jerusalem are structures we come to Worship God in, men for thousands of yrs have made them with the best of materials with the God given talent and inspiration of those who built them. They were made in the Honor and veneration, and Worship to God, which when we enter is supposed to be awe inspiring.

God bless,
John

 

[exnihilo]

It is quite common for gay men to report being first sexually attracted to other males between the ages of 4 and 8. I would call that childhood.

I question these claims. There is a lot of value in making this something people are born with. I can say I had no sexual thought at all, even well past the age of eight. I fully understand that I cant base reality on only my observations. But I think I’m not alone. We cant really prove these claims of gay attraction at age four. And even if they did exist that does not make them good. In the past people would have considered sexual thoughts at age four to be unnatural and unhealthy. It might be that these thoughts did occur in a four year old but that the four year old had been unhealthily sexualized at an early age resulting in the disorder.

 

[shaky]

I question these claims. There is a lot of value in making this something people are born with. I can say I had no sexual thought at all, even well past the age of eight. I fully understand that I cant base reality on only my observations. But I think I’m not alone. We cant really prove these claims of gay attraction at age four. And even if they did exist that does not make them good. In the past people would have considered sexual thoughts at age four to be unnatural and unhealthy. It might be that these thoughts did occur in a four year old but that the four year old had been unhealthily sexualized at an early age resulting in the disorder.

I am heterosexual and i can remember sexual fantasy thoughts started at 6 years of age. At 14 years of age i had my first orgasm through sexual fantasy thoughts. I had no religious upbringing. Also i had no sense that what i was doing was wrong. Although what i was doing was normal heterosexual. What gets me that some people can develop ALL sorts of uncontrolled sexual fantasy thoughts from a early child to teenage years who have had no sense of doing wrong or had religious upbringing. But religion tells them the damage is done and can’t be undone and the only solution is to become NONE SEXUAL like the Angels. Because religion says when being single even by using controlled normal sexual fantasy thoughts to try and correct the problem is a SIN.

 

[francisca]

It is quite common for gay men to report being first sexually attracted to other males between the ages of 4 and 8. I would call that childhood.

… while normal children, during those years, they were busy learning of how to socialize (read: play and build friendships) with especially same-gender. In other words, those are the normal age when human beings begin to learn to be accepted in their group especially of own gender. And if a child is rejected by his group or by another child (of his own gender) he can feel sad to the point of “broken hearted”.

Being exposed to sexual material at early age can caused confusion in this area. Human being has ability to label himself with identity not necessarily in line with reality, but then-- this self-label-- become his ground of his later choices, which-- in turn-- affirm and re-affirm his false identity to the point of belief that he** is** the person he has never been and never will.

Here is my point:

Supposedly I am “crazy” about aliens. I fantasize that I am the chosen representative of the earth in an alien-body of the milkyway, while my brother and sister are the intergalactical valiants who have put the whole universe into danger. Does my fantasy really make me and others the way I fantisize them? :nope:

Human sexuality is not about fantasy. It is about reality. Our sexuality-- just as other species sexuality-- is intended for real purposes. No fantasy can change this reality. Psychology was in the right track to define homosexuality as a disordered condition, because no science facts can support otherwise.

Sex as fantasy is induced by the media. Early exposure to those will interupt a child innocent sexual and social development and replace it with shallow stereo-types, lables, inaccurate information about sex then sexualization of all things, and unability to differentiate social-friendshp feelings from sexual feelings. This interuption accompanied with a series of choices based on false-grounds may result in the disintegration of a person’s sexuality as a whole (his true sexual reality) into fragments of inordinate fantasies which not necessarily represent his true self.

Even adults who expose themselves to sexual material from the media may result in his discontinuity in his sexual concenpt thus separate himself from his realities into inordinate fantasies, thus disintegrate himself as a whole true-person as created by God.

 

[francisca]

I’d like to add that psychology as a discipline can’t separate itself from other disciplines of sciences. All disciplines of sciences must form an integral unity of scientific truth, otherwise false.

Based on the above, psychology can’t decide on it’s own terms apart from other sciences regarding human sexuality. Psychology shall never declare something as normal when other facts of sciences says otherwise.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Hey Rockey,

The Pope is the Spiritual leaderFather on this good Earth, if we were to truly emulate him we’d all be priests. Lifestyle of the Pope, hmmm praying and meditating for hours five times a day?

Most if not all was donated or was commissioned by the Church, and you got to see it and appreciate it for free… anywhere else in the world you would have paid to see it. The Pope does not have a private art collection, it belongs to the Church. And when they were made they weren’t considered to be worth what they are today. And the Church hasn’t stored them, for the sake of having more than other faiths.

Churches like the Temple in the Jerusalem are structures we come to Worship God in, men for thousands of yrs have made them with the best of materials with the God given talent and inspiration of those who built them. They were made in the Honor and veneration, and Worship to God, which when we enter is supposed to be awe inspiring.

God bless,
John

Hey Johnny - You made the claim the the catholic church holds the moral high ground on the subject of materialism. this is true for some sects of protestantism, and untrue for others. that was my point. the dedicated spiritual leader whom you so admire is also very concerned about his prada shoes. he does not live a life of poverty, rather a life more sumptuous than most kings and presidents. many monks pray and dedicate themselves to spirituality in a variety of way, as much or perhaps more than he does, and they do live a simple life. i respect them more than a man who chooses to have Raphael tapestries in his private apartment, and who worries so much about the shoemaker for his dainty red shoes. I am not saying that Benedict XVI is not brilliant, and he may be spiritual. But he has chosen a very materialistic job. He has also failed miserably when put to the test on the child molestation issue, and also in bringing the church into modernity. It needs a more competent leader right now. Spirituality and fancy shoes are not enough.