Why is "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in Catholic Hymnal?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Madaglan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I always thought the communist Internationale beauiful,(though I didn’t care for its associations). Does this mean that it is okay to play it during a 4th of Jully parade?
Martin Luther’s hymn is just as far removed from Catholicism.
Lynn_Suer said:
Everything beautiful belongs to the Catholic Church. Thanks for clarifying the issue for me. I’ll reclaim this hymn tomorrow morning at Lauds just before Mass!🙂
Click to expand...
 
mdgspencer said:
I always thought the communist Internationale beauiful,(though I didn’t care for its associations). Does this mean that it is okay to play it during a 4th of Jully parade?
Martin Luther’s hymn is just as far removed from Catholicism.
Click to expand...
What part of the lyrics of the hymn go against Catholic teaching?
 
I understand that you mind Luther’s words innocuous, and they do seem innocuous. However, you didn’t quite respond to what I said in my last post.
Perhaps you aren’t quite aware of what was happening in Luther’s time. While Protestants and Catholics are pretty much at peace now, there was a war then, sometimes with great violence between Lutheranism and Catholicism in Europe. Who was Luther speaking of when he speaks of the ancient foe whose craft is great and who is armed with cruel hate? I would think that few Catholics realize as they sing this song that Luther is speaking of Catholicism
wanner47 said:
What part of the lyrics of the hymn go against Catholic teaching?
Click to expand...
 
wanner47 said:
What part of the lyrics of the hymn go against Catholic teaching?
Click to expand...
I was told as a child that the enemy referred to in the lyrics is none other than the Catholic Church itself. And so I’ve always considered that this hymn was a big rah-rah song for Protestants, long before my conversion to Catholicism. I too was quite surprised to see it included in the “Gather” hymnal that my parish uses.

🤷
 
mdgspencer said:
I understand that you mind Luther’s words innocuous, and they do seem innocuous. However, you didn’t quite respond to what I said in my last post.
Perhaps you aren’t quite aware of what was happening in Luther’s time. While Protestants and Catholics are pretty much at peace now, there was a war then, sometimes with great violence between Lutheranism and Catholicism in Europe. Who was Luther speaking of when he speaks of the ancient foe whose craft is great and who is armed with cruel hate? I would think that few Catholics realize as they sing this song that Luther is speaking of Catholicism
Click to expand...
Actually if you look at a more literal translation of the hymn, the lyrics are more explicit, referring to “the old evil foe,” though obviously the Catholic Church is never referenced specifically. Also in the final verse the lyrics “and take they our life, good, child, and wife. Let these all be gone, they yet have nothing won. The kingdom ours remaineth.” One could easily think that the Catholic Church is the “they” whom Luther is referencing. Of course, you’re right, most people would probably never be able to figure out what exactly is being referenced. I actually like the hymn personally, but because of what it meant historically I always think it’s strange when I hear it played in Mass.
 
As for “our ancient foe” being the Catholic Church, my Lutheran friend tells me, “No…I was raised on this hymn and we were always taught that the “ancient foe” is none other than Satan himself.”

Also, I don’t see much difference between “der boese alte Feind” and “our ancient foe.” Either phrase describes Satan very well.
Lutherans and other Protestants visiting a Catholic church may feel more comfortable when this hymn is played. “Come home to Rome.”
 
mdgspencer said:
I understand that you mind Luther’s words innocuous, and they do seem innocuous. However, you didn’t quite respond to what I said in my last post.
Perhaps you aren’t quite aware of what was happening in Luther’s time. While Protestants and Catholics are pretty much at peace now, there was a war then, sometimes with great violence between Lutheranism and Catholicism in Europe. Who was Luther speaking of when he speaks of the ancient foe whose craft is great and who is armed with cruel hate? I would think that few Catholics realize as they sing this song that Luther is speaking of Catholicism
Click to expand...
Perhaps YOU aren’t aware that I was Lutheran for 22 years. I know Reformation history, thanks. 😉

It sounds to me that the “foe” spoken of in the lyrics is Satan, not the CC.
 
Another elderly Lutheran friend says, “The idea that the “ancient foe” refers to the Catholic church is ridiculous. Martin Luther did not despise the Church, he only wanted to correct the abuses.”
🙂
 
There is room for a difference of opinion one way or another, and the open war between Lutheranism and Catholicism is long over. It seems only natural that Lutherans will hear different ideas about whether this hymn refers to Catholicism or, perhaps, to the devil, since Protestantism is hardly monolithic. Still, protestants popularly call this song “the battle hymn of the Reformation.”
I am happy to hear a Lutheran say that Luther, and by extension, Lutheranism, did not despise the Church. Still, I don’t agree with this, from my studies of history in college.
 
Note the context:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.
Click to expand...
Since he has no equal on earth, it seems to imply that the foe is not of this earth.
 
Quote:

"Protestants popularly call this song “the battle hymn of the Reformation.”

The above-mentioned Protestants could only have done so well after 1862, when “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” was first published. Only an American Protestant could have written such words since “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” would mean little to any other nation. This is very far removed from Luther’s times. These are the words of someone in a different place at a much later date.
 
Luther was Roman Catholic not Lutheran, not Protestant. Luther never wanted any type of conflict which became the peasants war. Luther being an Augustinian and Roman Catholic Priest never wanted to break from the Roman Catholic Church. He wanted to end the focus of the church at that time away from papal indulgences where one could buy absolution of sin and years in purgatory even for sins they were about to commit. The Medici that controlled the Paplacy at that time wanted to raise money yes for a worthy cause, yet Luther saw the methods as contrary to the Justification by Faith. He wanted to de-mystify the church as well. He translated the bible from Latin to the common language and leveraged the Guttenberg printing press at that time so the common man could know the word and come to know the message of the Cross in their everyday common lives. All services were conducted in Latin in that day. Can you imagine a common farmer going to mass and not knowing what was going on? That is why he wrote A Mighty Fortress is Our God to a familiar common tune of that day. The foe he speaks of is not the pope, the Medici either. Again he did not want to break or be excommunicated or put is life on the line. He wrote the words to hymn telling of a champion that fights the ravages of this life…that fights and wins the battle for our life eternal and breaks the bondage from the valley spoken of in Pslam 23. “Though life be wretched away…A Champion Comes to Fight…One that God HIMSLEF elected…so that the Kingdom is ours forever”. Luther was speaking for all christians. This was not a Battle Hymn to war against the Medici or the Roman Catholic church. He did not want the peasant war, he lamented it. This was to enable the common man, in the common language to come to know Christ in their everyday life. He wanted to enable that communication between Rome and the people. That is Lutheran foundation. Not protestant, not anti-catholic. The desire was to bring Christ’s word and realization of His sacrifice and what that gave us in eternal life… to bring that message to the common person who worked the farms, who did not read latin, to know that Christ died for us so we may have life eternal and that to be saved, was simple… to have true faith in Christ.
 
If Luther was such a good Catholic, then why did he refuse the Pope’s offer to dialogue, and why did he get married?

In any case, the same applies for “Faith of Our Fathers,” which is referring to Protestant Martyrs (but both hymns have been given official approval by the American Church for some time, even before Vatican II). My mother in law says that when she was a little girl, she never understood why they were singing Protestant hymns at Mass.

But much worse is “Amazing Grace,” a testiment to Calvinism: sola fides, total depravity, eternal security, and predestination.
 
GodsGadfly said:
. . .

In any case, the same applies for “Faith of Our Fathers,” which is referring to Protestant Martyrs (but both hymns have been given official approval by the American Church for some time, even before Vatican II). My mother in law says that when she was a little girl, she never understood why they were singing Protestant hymns at Mass. . . .
Click to expand...
Note that Faith of our Fathers was written by Father Frederick W. Fa*ber. Note especially his original third stanza:
Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee; . …
Click to expand...
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that Faith of our Fathers was written by Father Frederick W. Fa*ber. Note especially his original third stanza:
Click to expand...
You are correct. Faith of Our Fathers is definitely NOT a Protestant hymn. It is a magnificent Catholic hymn, written by a Catholic priest, and any reference to specific martyrs was originally referring to Catholics martyred in Ireland. It can, of course, be applied to all of us being prepared to die for our faith.

The “ancient foe” referred to in A Mighty Fortress is Satan, not the Catholic Church. The word Satan means “adversary”, another word for “foe”, and in Revelation 20 verse 2 he is described as “that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan…”.

I am not so sure about the verse which talks about them taking “goods, honour, profit, wife…” Luther may here be having a criticism at the Catholic Church because he, against his solemn vows, married.

The rest of the hymn is a wonderful statement of faith in our powerful God who has conquered evil.
 
If the hymn is theologically incorrect, if it is not currently associated with dissent from the Church, and if it is singable by a congregation, and if it is reverent in tone…well, we hardly have too many of those. When a hymn is called for, go ahead and sing it. (It the author would have hated that we use it to mean what we decide it means, I hardly see how that hurts! 😉 )

As for whether or not a hymn is called for at a given juncture of the Mass, that is another question entirely.
 
The words of the hymn, “Faith of our fathers,” were indeed written by Father Faber but the melody was written by Henri Frederic Hemy (also Catholic) in honor of St. Catherine. The hymn was later harmonized by James George Walton, who added the last eight bars with the refrain.

Many of our finest Catholic hymns have been composed by Protestants. What would we do without the lovely music of such composers as J. S. Bach, Buxtehude, Ralph Vaugh Williams and Praetorius? My choir director told us that everything beautiful belongs to the Catholic Church.
 
EasterJoy said:
If the hymn is theologically incorrect, if it is not currently associated with dissent from the Church, and if it is singable by a congregation, and if it is reverent in tone…well, we hardly have too many of those. When a hymn is called for, go ahead and sing it. (It the author would have hated that we use it to mean what we decide it means, I hardly see how that hurts! 😉 )

As for whether or not a hymn is called for at a given juncture of the Mass, that is another question entirely.
Click to expand...
I meant if the hymn is theologically correct, of course. :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top