Why is abortion harmful?

[Julius_Caesar]

And you hold God calling people to Himself as a bad thing?

Two things wrong with your assertion: no human is innocent in the eyes of God, and two, God is the author of Life.

It’s grace that allows us to even think of heaven, not to talk of getting there. So please stop with the Marcionism. It’s annoying.

 

[goout]

And you hold God calling people to Himself as a bad thing?

Two things wrong with your assertion: no human is innocent in the eyes of God, and two, God is the author of Life.

It’s grace that allows us to even think of heaven, not to talk of getting there. So please stop with the Marcionism. It’s annoying.

Marcionism proposes a division in God between the OT and NT. You’ll have to explain your invoking of it here?
Look at Jesus. Can you read the whole of Scripture in light of Christ? But not to derail.

If you want to make the case that every life is made in the image of God, your insistence that God would literally command the slaughter of innocent children is not going to help you make a moral case. This kind of fundamentalism make Christianity look like just another selective power grab. And 100% seriously, Freddy’s moral sense here is better than that.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Marcionism proposes a division in God between the OT and NT.

Which you are espousing by even suggesting that the Israelites misunderstood God.

Look at Jesus. Can you read the whole of Scripture in light of Christ?

The same Jesus cursed a fig tree, flipped tables, killed Ananias and Sapphira, struck Saul and Elymas blind, and will rule the nations with an iron rod.

your insistence that God would literally command the slaughter of innocent children is not going to help you make a moral case.

You can only make that argument for kids below seven, and in that case God calls them to Him.

God has the right to take life. And none of us is righteous not even one. None of us should be alive.

 

[Raxus]

Is this a person?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’m going to suggest that you don’t know either.

Science says it is.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Is this a person?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’m going to suggest that you don’t know either.

Science says it is.

I’d be interested in seeing a scientific reference that says that.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

goout:

Your position is an appeal to the power of one human being over others.

That’s exactly the point I am not making. But stating it time after time after time seems a waste of time.

Then answering the question for us would be the charitable thing.

I’ve done this dance before as I’m sure you have. I say X and you say ‘Then what about Y’. Shall we spin around the once so that everyone can appreciate the steps?

I say: A zygote hasn’t even got a nervous system. And you say…

And what you could also do is answer the question as to exactly what that picture shows. I could go the whole hog and post one of an infant and ask if you could list some differences but I really don’t see the point.

 

[goout]

goout:

Freddy:

goout:

Your position is an appeal to the power of one human being over others.

That’s exactly the point I am not making. But stating it time after time after time seems a waste of time.

Then answering the question for us would be the charitable thing.

I’ve done this dance before as I’m sure you have. I say X and you say ‘Then what about Y’. Shall we spin around the once so that everyone can appreciate the steps?

I say: A zygote hasn’t even got a nervous system. And you say…

And what you could also do is answer the question as to exactly what that picture shows. I could go the whole hog and post one of an infant and ask if you could list some differences but I really don’t see the point.

Ok, to repeat:

The substantial differences are stages of development, potency, and capacity, and if your position is to be consistent, you should accord those stages of development more or less value as human beings and more or less protection. And that is obviously what you are doing.

Your position is an appeal to the power of one human being over others. That’s all it is. And unfortunately using power as the barometer of human value leads to barbarism.

You are appealing to stage of development and denying humanity. That’s an exercise of your power over others, no more no less.

 

[Freddy]

You are appealing to stage of development and denying humanity.

Well…yes. There is obviously a difference in the stages. And my view is that humanity can only reference human beings. That is, persons. Which, for example, a zygote is not. Because it doesn’t even have a nervous system. Then you say…

 

[stpurl]

Does a person always arise from a human zygote as the pregnancy continues to birth? Has there ever been an example where a human zygote did not ‘result’ in, at the birth from a human woman, a human child, having somehow ‘morphed’ at some point in pregnancy into a non human?

Furthermore if a woman carries a child in her womb until birth and the child is born with, say anencephaly, or other severe birth defects, or lacking internal or external organs, is that child no longer human?

 

[Freddy]

Does a person always arise from a human zygote as the pregnancy continues to birth?

No. The pregnancy has not started at the zygote stage. More often than not it is aborted by the woman’s body and nobody is the wiser.

And you are comparing (and acknowledging) that a child born with severe defects in it’s nervous system has a nervous system.

 

[stpurl]

I mentioned other than the nervous system, and also that a zygote if ‘unimpeded’ (and that means by ‘natural’ means as well as abortifacients means) will continue its development into a human child.

Or are you trying to tell me that a human zygote will, as I rather specifically stated, in the continued development of a human through pregnancy until birth (and of course thereafter) will NOT result in a human being?

Stages of pregnancy are pretty specific. One doesn’t skip from one to another, or work backward, and once pregnancy starts, it will continue with the result of a human infant unless there is something that interferes with the development.

Sometimes there is a problem with the mother; my daughter-in-law just lost a child at 10 weeks so pardon me if I am slightly more aware than normal of the devastation the loss of a child can bring, Freddy. I won’t go into huge specifics but there was an issue with the placenta. That child, whose early development included the zygote stage, had ‘gone on’ from that stage and was developing according to a normal human pregnancy. And that baby who was lost was a baby from the time of his or her conception, not just at x days or x weeks.

 

[Freddy]

My sincere condolences to your family. As it turns out, my daughter-in-law told us on the weekend that she is pregnant. At about the same stage.

And at this stage I think I will pass on further comment and leave the conversation. When the discussion relates to what people are directly experiencing then I think the arguments take on a personal aspect that can be distressing for some. My apologies if my comments have caused that to happen.

Thanks to all for your comments.

 

[Raxus]

I’d be interested in seeing a scientific reference that says that.

Any biology book would tell you that the picture shown is a member of the human genus.

And then dictionary.com gives us this:

human being​

SEE SYNONYMS FOR human being ON THESAURUS.COM

noun​

any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:

Notice that the emphasis on personhood is simply that of representing the human species or being distinguished from other animals.

It’s a person, yo.

 

[Rau]

I’m going to suggest that you don’t know either.

I’ve no idea what that picture is.

I didn’t ask you about “person”. Yet again you’ve ducked the question which was about a human being.

I asked you: “What is the difference between my human offspring at the very early stage (zygote) and a human being?” I say the former is a young instance of the latter, ie a human being. What do you say?

 

[goout]

goout:

You are appealing to stage of development and denying humanity.

Well…yes. There is obviously a difference in the stages. And my view is that humanity can only reference human beings. That is, persons. Which, for example, a zygote is not. Because it doesn’t even have a nervous system. Then you say…

Are you willing to admit that your justification using “personhood” has been used to dehumanize many other groups of people for various reasons at various stages of life? Race, handicaps, age, sexual orientation, on and on. Same reasoning. Can you admit that?

 

[VeryBlessed]

To those of us on the pro-life side, or at least to myself, I think it will always seem as if people use semantics to justify what should be completely unjustifiable and unthinkable. Human, human being, person, personhood, fetus, zygote, entity contains human dna… Yes perhaps some of these terms are medically illustrative in describing a human’s place in development. But to use them to rationalize or justify the taking of a human life anywhere between conception and natural death seems to me the height of self deception. It’s what the Nazis did to the Jews. Dehumanize them first, to justify killing them. God forgive us and help us.

 

[Freddy]

And at this stage I think I will pass on further comment and leave the conversation. When the discussion relates to what people are directly experiencing then I think the arguments take on a personal aspect that can be distressing for some. My apologies if my comments have caused that to happen.

…

 

[Rau]

The question I posed (and that you ducked multiple times) has nothing to do with personal experiences Fred. That a poster made mention of a family loss does not make the discussion about personal experiences.

 

[stpurl]

Prayers for your daughter-in-law, and thank you for your good wishes. God bless.

 

[Dolphin]

The right to freedom of choice cannot supersede the need to protect innocent life. Abortion harms innocents. Therefore, abortion is harmful.