Why is Catholic Apologetics necessary?

[Angainor]

If an Apologist really believed that the Catholic Church represented the authority, then the answer to every question “why?” would be “because it is a teaching of the Catholic Church.” If the Catholic Church was really regarded as the Authority, then Apologists would not be necessary.

That is not how Apologists work. Apologists appeal to other, deeper authorities and sources of truth. They are appealing to the Truth, which is indpendant of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church may teach the Truth, but it is not, in itself the Truth. The vary fact that Catholic Apologetics exists confirms this fact.

 

[Isidore_AK]

That argument would only work if Catholic Apologists were dealing with people who accept the Authority of the Magisterium (i.e. Catholics!).

As they deal with those who do not accept any such Authority they MUST go to ‘other’ rationalities to explain why the protestant should accept Church Authority.

To paraphrase Augustine…I accept Christianity because the Church tells me it is True…

 

[Genesis315]

Angainor:

If an Apologist really believed that the Catholic Church represented the authority, then the answer to every question “why?” would be “because it is a teaching of the Catholic Church.” If the Catholic Church was really regarded as the Authority, then Apologists would not be necessary.

That is not how Apologists work. Apologists appeal to other, deeper authorities and sources of truth. They are appealing to the Truth, which is indpendant of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church may teach the Truth, but it is not, in itself the Truth. The vary fact that Catholic Apologetics exists confirms this fact.

As was said before, those who accept the Church as the authority aren’t the ones who need apologizing.

 

[Church_Militant]

Apologetics has been around as long as Christianity itself since we have always had to make “apologia” fro what we believe. It is not a detriment to the truth of Catholicism that we are here to defend it. By defense is actually meant the explanation of the reason for what we believe. This ties in with 1st Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

There is such a load of misconceptions, misrepresentations, and outright lies about Catholicism that it has been and always will be necessary to some degree or other. It is also part of evangelisation.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[TheresaAvila]

“The Catholic Church may teach the Truth, but it is not, in itself the Truth. The vary fact that Catholic Apologetics exists confirms this fact.”

The Church does not expect us to be mindless robots. There are reasons for the Truths we believe and explaining these Truths is apologetics. The Church is the Truth that Jesus taught. Because that is what the Church teaches is an explanation for children. Adults need and deserve the truth underneath. Just because is sufficient for children, adults need more for belief to be more than a surface veneer.

 

[rpstpa]

Isidore_AK:

To paraphrase Augustine…I accept Christianity because the Church tells me it is True…

Isidore. Again, circular logic. Why is christianity right? becuase the bible tells me so.

 

[Genesis315]

rpstpa:

Isidore. Again, circular logic. Why is christianity right? becuase the bible tells me so.

No. Because the guys who knew Jesus have passed the truth down through apostolic succession and Tradtion.

 

[Isidore_AK]

rpstpa:

Isidore. Again, circular logic. Why is christianity right? becuase the bible tells me so.

Ahh, but the books of the Bible were chosen & compiled by the Church…Christianity & the Catholic Church pre-date the Bible. Hence, you cannot accept Christianity without accepting the Church, for without the Church, you would know almost NOTHING of Christianity. I say almost because there are some references made by non-Christian historians to Jesus (Josephus etc).

Without the Church, you would be Pagan at best.

 

[Angainor]

TheresaAvila:

Because that is what the Church teaches is an explanation for children. Adults need and deserve the truth underneath. Just because is sufficient for children, adults need more for belief to be more than a surface veneer.

That’s what I think… but I am Protestant!

Part of what makes the Catholic Church stand out from other denominations is the belief that the Church itself is Truth. There is no Truth “underneath”. The Church is supposed to be the bedrock of Truth, Truth does not go deeper. “Just because” is sufficient.

[post=565188]To paraphrase Augustine[/post]…I accept Christianity because the Church tells me it is True…

 

[Angainor]

Isidore_AK:

That argument would only work if Catholic Apologists were dealing with people who accept the Authority of the Magisterium (i.e. Catholics!).

As they deal with those who do not accept any such Authority they MUST go to ‘other’ rationalities to explain why the protestant should accept Church Authority.

To paraphrase Augustine…I accept Christianity because the Church tells me it is True…

What are those ‘other’ rationalities? I assume that by that you mean common Truths that Protestants and Catholics agree on. These common Truths are Truths that are separate from the Authority of the Catholic Church (or else protestants would reject them). Are these common Truths co-equal to the Truth of the Cathoic Church? Are these common Truths inferior to the Truth of the Catholic Church?

What is the relationship of the common Truths you appeal to in Apologetics and the Truth that is the Catholic Church?

 

[Isidore_AK]

Angainor:

What are those ‘other’ rationalities? I assume that by that you mean common Truths that Protestants and Catholics agree on. These common Truths are Truths that are separate from the Authority of the Catholic Church (or else protestants would reject them). Are these common Truths co-equal to the Truth of the Cathoic Church? Are these common Truths inferior to the Truth of the Catholic Church?

What is the relationship of the common Truths you appeal to in Apologetics and the Truth that is the Catholic Church?

I simply meant that Protestants tend to accept the Bible as their only Authority, so Catholics are forced to defend their faith with the Bible. To Catholics, the Truth of the Bible is inseperable from the Catholic Church…and all Christians have no choice but to accept the Bible as preserved by the Church. Catholic councils determined which books would make the cut and which would not.

Just ask yourself…what is the Pillar & Foundation of the Truth? Think about it for a moment…and then read 1 Timothy 3:14 & 15.

 

[Gracie2004]

Angainor:

If an Apologist really believed that the Catholic Church represented the authority, then the answer to every question “why?” would be “because it is a teaching of the Catholic Church.” If the Catholic Church was really regarded as the Authority, then Apologists would not be necessary.

That is not how Apologists work. Apologists appeal to other, deeper authorities and sources of truth. They are appealing to the Truth, which is indpendant of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church may teach the Truth, but it is not, in itself the Truth. The vary fact that Catholic Apologetics exists confirms this fact.

Scripture proves you wrong…1 Tim 3:15 “But if I am delayed, you should know how to act in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Gracie

 

[Angainor]

Church Militant:

Apologetics has been around as long as Christianity itself since we have always had to make “apologia” fro what we believe. It is not a detriment to the truth of Catholicism that we are here to defend it. By defense is actually meant the explanation of the reason for what we believe.

What I am trying to understand is: Do Catholics believe the Catholic Church (CC) is built on a foundation of Truth, or that the CC itself Truth. If it is the former, then I fully understand Apologetics. Truth would be a separate entity from the CC and the CC would simply teach that separate entitiy called Truth.

However, I always thought it was the latter, because the CC is said to possess authority. The CC is authority. The CC is Truth. If that is the case I do not understand apologetics, for apologetics appeals to authorites outside the CC.

 

[davidv]

Angainor:

What I am trying to understand is: Do Catholics believe the Catholic Church (CC) is built on a foundation of Truth, or that the CC itself Truth. If it is the former, then I fully understand Apologetics. Truth would be a separate entity from the CC and the CC would simply teach that separate entitiy called Truth.

However, I always thought it was the latter, because the CC is said to possess authority. The CC is authority. The CC is Truth. If that is the case I do not understand apologetics, for apologetics appeals to authorites outside the CC.

I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion. I have been Catholic all my life and I have never been taught or have believed that church is authority or truth. I have been taught that the Church **has **authority and truth.

 

[Angainor]

Gracie2004:

Scripture proves you wrong…1 Tim 3:15 “But if I am delayed, you should know how to act in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Gracie

With respect, I don’t believe Timothy was referring to the institution that is the Catholic Church when he was talking of the household of God.

If I didn’t know you meant no ill will by your statement, I would feel rather irritated that you would so boldy exclude me and my Protestant bretheren from the household of God simply because we are not card-carrying members of the institution that is the Catholic Church. I would be tempted to think that was mighty arrogant of you, that is, if i didn’t know you meant no ill will by saying so.

 

[Angainor]

davidv:

I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion. I have been Catholic all my life and I have never been taught or have believed that church is authority or truth. I have been taught that the Church **has **authority and truth.

I challenge you to explain to me the difference. I do not see it.

There are two possibilites:

If Authority and Truth enjoy an existance of their own, independant of the Catholic Church, then Authority and Truth will remain constant regarless of any decrees the Catholic Church makes, and the Catholic Church would possess no actual Authority or Truth in its own right. The “truthness” of the Catholic Church would be dependant on how well its decrees line-up with actual Authority and Truth as they exist on thier own.

If the Catholic Church has real authority on what is true, then Authority and Truth have no independant existance of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church would be Authority and Truth.

Now that I really think on it, I begin to see the possiblity of a third option. If Authority and Truth existed independantly, and it could be somehow guaranteed that the Catholic Church’s decrees would line-up with that Actual Authority and Truth. then Catholic Church decrees could be relied upon, but not because the Catholic Church possesses “Authority” per se…

Sorry, just thinking aloud.

 

[dennisknapp]

Angainor:

What are those ‘other’ rationalities? I assume that by that you mean common Truths that Protestants and Catholics agree on. These common Truths are Truths that are separate from the Authority of the Catholic Church (or else protestants would reject them). Are these common Truths co-equal to the Truth of the Cathoic Church? Are these common Truths inferior to the Truth of the Catholic Church?

What is the relationship of the common Truths you appeal to in Apologetics and the Truth that is the Catholic Church?

What you have as an Evangelical is 80% of the truth. What we are trying to do is help you gain the other 20% you are lacking through the use of apologetics.

BTW the 80% you do have was given to you by the Catholic Church.

Not counting the stuff you added like sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

Angainor:

I challenge you to explain to me the difference. I do not see it.

There are two possibilites:

If Authority and Truth enjoy an existance of their own, independant of the Catholic Church, then Authority and Truth will remain constant regarless of any decrees the Catholic Church makes, and the Catholic Church would possess no actual Authority or Truth in its own right. The “truthness” of the Catholic Church would be dependant on how well its decrees line-up with actual Authority and Truth as they exist on thier own.

If the Catholic Church has real authority on what is true, then Authority and Truth have no independant existance of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church would be Authority and Truth.

Now that I really think on it, I begin to see the possiblity of a third option. If Authority and Truth existed independantly, and it could be somehow guaranteed that the Catholic Church’s decrees would line-up with that Actual Authority and Truth. then Catholic Church decrees could be relied upon, but not because the Catholic Church possesses “Authority” per se…

Sorry, just thinking aloud.

Just think of it like a spectrum. At point 1 is a total lack of truth and at point 100 is total truth. The further one gets to 100 the closer one gets to the Catholic Church.

Peace

 

[davidv]

Angainor:

I challenge you to explain to me the difference. I do not see it.

Jesus calls himself

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life

John 14:6 (NRSV)
​

​

He establish his kingdom which will last forever. This kingdom is present here on this earth in an incomplete form (We call in the Church Militant). He appointed Peter to shepherd the church until his return when he will reign in glory.

Who is truth? - Jesus
Jesus said he would live in us.
If Jesus lives in us, then we have truth

Hope this explains where I was coming from.

 

[Gracie2004]

Angainor:

With respect, I don’t believe Timothy was referring to the institution that is the Catholic Church when he was talking of the household of God.

If I didn’t know you meant no ill will by your statement, I would feel rather irritated that you would so boldy exclude me and my Protestant bretheren from the household of God simply because we are not card-carrying members of the institution that is the Catholic Church. I would be tempted to think that was mighty arrogant of you, that is, if i didn’t know you meant no ill will by saying so.

Certainly he was talking of the Holy Catholic church, which was the Church built on the Apostles Peter and Paul and the other Apostles. There was no other for 1600 years. Do I exclude you? No, we have come to realize you have a kernal of truth in all protestant denominations, just not the fullness of truth. Do I believe you have been baptized validly? If you were baptized according to the Trinity, then yes. Do I believe you have other valid sacraments? No. Do I believe you have faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior? Only you can tell me that. Do I believe you will be saved? Only GOD can tell you that Not trying to be arrogant, just telling you what we believe, and what I believe in particular. Am I God to judge you on the state of your soul and whether or not you will get to heaven? No…I’m not, nor do I pretend to be.

So…there was only ONE Church at the time Timothy was written, it is the Holy Catholic Church. So, scripture proves your first statement wrong about the Church not being truth…but we have to realize that many IN the Church can be wrong. When the Church herself, (as the bride of Christ, as the body of Christ) teaches, she cannot teach error. So this tells us that not ONLY are the teachings of the Church truth, but the Church herself, in order to BE the bride and body of Christ, is truth. \

Hope that cleared it up for you

Gracie