Why is change so difficult to swallow?

[iona_scribe]

What do you mean here? The meaning of the mass. What meaning has changed?

Yeah, maybe as was said previously, emphasis is a better word than meaning. The Mass, regardless of whether its OF or EF, is still the Eucharistic Sacrifice.
I am still a relative newbie Catholic, so please take anything I say with a grain of salt. I seem to always be putting my foot in my mouth on this forum

I’m not qualified to go into too much detail here, but if I can make a few reading suggestions that you can draw your own conclusions from:

The book of Leviticus in the Old Testament

“The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth” by Scott Hahn

“Jesus of Nazareth” by Pope Benedict XVI

None of these in and of themselves promote the Tridentine Mass, but they will give you a very Biblical framework for understanding the principles that guide our worship as Catholics (the origins of liturgy, sacraments, etc.)

My conclusion: in the EF there’s an atmosphere more conducive to reverence (i.e. treating the Eucharist more like Christ is really present in it, which he is) and many of the prayers (if I could just learn to read Latin) are more conducive to the understanding that we are present at Christ’s atoning sacrifice. Plus like many have mentioned here, there is a greater sense of continuity with Catholic worship stretching back through the ages, (not to mention with the fulfillment of the Law and Covenant in scripture.) This is only after having been to an EF mass a small handful of times.

Hey, I see you’re from Riverside! I’m over here in Irvine

 

[lorathon]

Please, please, please, do not let any of this disturb your peace or shake your faith in our Lord Jesus and His Church. It has been a tumultuous forty years and there is a lot of sorting out left to do. The Catholic Church has the promises of our Lord to protect her, never to leave her or forsake her. And indeed, the counter-revolution is in full swing under our Holy Father Benedict. I would rather cut off my fingers than lead someone to doubt and despair. If we can discuss it peaceably then good, but if anyone deems this to be over the top then I’ll shut up.

Have no fear my friend and brother. My faith will not be shaken nor destroyed by this conversation. I am only seeing knowledge. Knowledge of what was and what has changed.

So what are the theological problems with Holy Communion in both species? I actually can understand the problem some have with Holy Communion in the hand. I personally like it on the tongue.

 

[CradleCath]

lorathon;4642575]This is why I asked the question here. I did not live through the changes and as I had previously mentioned I have not attended a TLM.
I have never heard the NO Mass being called a “communal meal”.
I personally have never seen the likes of what you are describing.

I know that, Jeff. And it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m sorry if I did. However, It’s quite upsetting when it seems like post-Vatican Catholics have bought the liberal lines. Just put “Catholic Mass, Communal Meal” in your search engine & you’ll see what I mean. Christ is not the focus of the Novus Ordo Mass that we celebrate today… the “community” is the focus. And BTW., the Mass you attend today is probably nothing like the Mass proscribed by Vatican II.

My goal was not to disrespect anyone. I have not tried to offend anyone. I asked a question for a true answer. Since I did NOT live through the changes and since I have no clue what the Pre VII Church was like, I wanted to know why the changes could not be accepted. No offense was intended and I wish to appologize if anyone has taken offense to my question.

No offense was taken. It’s just that I get tired of hearing questions like: Why do you guys (Trads) like Latin so much. Why do you prefer that the priest turns his back on you…when what happens is that the priest turns his FACE to God & on & on.
It’s a 'hot button" subject for some of us.

 

[lorathon]

I know that, Jeff. And it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m sorry if I did. However, It’s quite upsetting when it seems like post-Vatican Catholics have bought the liberal lines. Just put “Catholic Mass, Communal Meal” in your search engine & you’ll see what I mean. Christ is not the focus of the Novus Ordo Mass that we celebrate today… the “community” is the focus. And BTW., the Mass you attend today is probably nothing like the Mass proscribed by Vatican II.

No offense was taken. It’s just that I get tired of hearing questions like: Why do you guys (Trads) like Latin so much. Why do you prefer that the priest turns his back on you…when what happens is that the priest turns his FACE to God & on & on.
It’s a 'hot button" subject for some of us.

Ok…everybody is forgiven including me… (i Hope )

Now…Back to my questions. Can someone please explain how the emphasis is off of Christ and onto the community? I just don’t see that. Like I said maybe this is because I have never been to a TLM. How does the priest facing the people signify that he is not facing God?

I really dont mean to push buttons just find answers. Maybe this will lead me to go and attend a TLM. I have been considering it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

We dont need a Church that moves with the world. We need a Church that moves the world. GKC

many changes have accured. such as i remember walking into the Church it was total silence, a complete peacefull place to be. today we walk into the Church people are restless and noisy. and there goes what our Lord said “come to Me all who labors heavely and I will give you peace.”

clapping in the Church? this was unheard of. Priests talking to the people during Mass? never. jokies is most what we hear now. that goes the real message of the Gospel.

well, i am sure you seen much more than that.

God bless us all.

 

[DavidPalm]

Can someone please explain how the emphasis is off of Christ and onto the community? I just don’t see that. Like I said maybe this is because I have never been to a TLM. How does the priest facing the people signify that he is not facing God?

That is certainly one way the emphasis is shifted. Here is an observation by Cardinal Ratzinger:

The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself (Ratzinger, The Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 80).

And here is an observation from Msgr. Gamber:

The ‘traditionalist’ priest will always stand in front of the altar, as have been commonly done in the Eastern Church and in the Western Church throughout history. They are priests offering a sacrifice who, together with the faithful, face God. The other priests function as presiders over a Eucharistic meal; and from their seats, or from behind the altar facing the people, which has become a table, they direct their gaze towards the assembled faithful. They are, apparently, not troubled in the least by the fact that their backs are turned on the former High Altar and on the tabernacle—the altar at which, only a few years ago, the holy sacrifice of the Mass was offered and on which the eyes of the praying faithful had been focused. (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, p. 98)

 

[AlanF]

What do you mean here? The meaning of the mass. What meaning has changed?

Basically the emphasis has gone from being the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to the people “gathering around the altar” to “share a community meal”.

It’s gone from generally being this to being this.

Change is not always difficult, it can be a positive thing, as long as it’s a change for the better. Perhaps I can paint you a word picture re the change you’re speaking of. . I was about 25 yrs. old when the Novus Ordo Mass made it’s debut. I was all set to love it. The Liturgy of the Catholic Church had never failed me, so I had no worries about this “New Mass”. In fact I was excited.
It seemed a bit dull & flat in the very beginning, but It was new & I just figured that they had to iron out some wrinkles. Then they started tearing out the interior of the Cathedral parish that I had attended for those 25 yrs…the Communion Rail first, then the Statues, the . confessionals next. Within a two year span, it was gutted. The Pipe organ gone…to make room for the guitars & drums & liturgical dancers.
The grand old Cathedral looked barren & sterile. Still…I told myself that it was just a building.

I’m very thankful I wasn’t around in those days!

 

[pnewton]

I just don’t see that. Like I said maybe this is because I have never been to a TLM. How does the priest facing the people signify that he is not facing God?

Last question first. The priest was not supposed to face God. He faced East, or specifically liturgical East. This was done because it it from this direction that Christ comes and will come. The priest is actual more part of the community when he stands with us facing east along with the people of God. He is part of us, offering sacrifice on our behalf.

Second, in regards to community. The Church decided that more emphasis needed to be place on the Mass as a communal sacrifice. The Mass is the Church gathered in community. Such changes have occured in the past to help educate the faithful. For example, when people thought that the bread became the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ, communion was changed to one species (as mandatory) so that the faithful would learn that either containted both the body and blood of the Lord.

The problem arose in the timing, I think. The idea of community was so “Kum Ba Yah-ish” that it became easy to focus on the community to the detriment of the presence of Christ and the worship of Him. All too often momentum swings a pendulum too far and you have a priest making stuff up to make Mass more of a group therapy love session. Again, this is only my opinion of what happened. The first paragraph is from Cardinal Ratzinger.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Basically the emphasis has gone from being the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to the people “gathering around the altar” to “share a community meal”.

It’s gone from generally being this to being this.

I’m very thankful I wasn’t around in those days!

the second sounds just like my parish. the music and everything. it has no life into it. May God forgive us all.

lets pray for the intervention of our Lord.

 

[AlanF]

the second sounds just like my parish. the music and everything. it has no life into it. May God forgive us all.

lets pray for the intervention of our Lord.

Same for me. This is almost exactly like Mass at my parish.

As soon as can get to Sunday TLM I’m off.

 

[lorathon]

Firstly I would like to thank all of the answering of my questions so far. I did a little bit of research last night. I cracked open my catechism and just happened to find something I thought was relevant to the Mass discussion.

1345
As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.

The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . . and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.171

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.shtml

I know that this is just a generalization of the Mass. This was all the time for research that I had. But I noted that the order of the Mass from 155AD is extremely close to the order of the Mass that I attend. I am wondering if the TLM has the same order.

Do people participate in the TLM?

Is there a “Sign of Peace” in the TLM? I thought I had read that some did not like the “Sign of Peace”. I may be mistaken.

Any errors are my own and inocent.

 

[Penitant]

I know that this is just a generalization of the Mass. This was all the time for research that I had. But I noted that the order of the Mass from 155AD is extremely close to the order of the Mass that I attend. I am wondering if the TLM has the same order.

Yes, the new Mass took the order from the Tridentine/Gregorian Liturgy.

Do people participate in the TLM?

It depends on what you mean by “participate”. If you are asking if we pray the Mass, then a resounding ‘Yes’.

Is there a “Sign of Peace” in the TLM? I thought I had read that some did not like the “Sign of Peace”. I may be mistaken.

There is a “Sign of Peace” but is orderly and not a “everyone turn and great those around you” ordeal. Those of us who ‘dislike’ the Sign of Peace aren’t opposed to the idea itself, which is good and Holy. We dislike the form that the modern Sign of Peace takes.

Pax Tecum,
Zach

 

[PJM]

This is why I asked the question here. I did not live through the changes and as I had previously mentioned I have not attended a TLM.

I have never heard the NO Mass being called a “communal meal”.

The term “communal meal” is really not that uncommon. It stems from an effort (a far too successful effort) to actually change the very reason we meet on Sunday’s from a historical (I’m trying to avoid calling it "traditional) Christ-centric focus, a “Vertial focus,” to what we quite often find now as a "we are THE church, Horizonal liturgy. Where we are as important as the priest, and even Christ Himself. Indeed some would say, our role is ESSENTIAL to the Sacred Liturgy.

We do mysteriously"complete the liturgy" but it is, has to be about the Sacrifice of Christ. A Mass can, in specific circumstances be valid and lict with noone but the priest being present.

To explain it another way, up until the Post Vatican II (actually just the spirit of as they were not required or even suggessted by V-II)
“mandates,” the way the Sacred Liturgy had been handed doen to us from the very Apostles up to V-II, was a God Centered Focus.

Much effort was made (again without Romes approval and FAR too successfully) to change to emphasis to a “meal” celebration, where in the best scenario, the emphasis was on “the meal” rather than the Sacrifice of our Blessed Lord.

By putting the emphasis on the meal aspect, the following practices were easy, and without Romes approval, able to be implemented.

Removal of Communion rails

Removing Tabernacles from our Sactunaries to “chapels” that all too often simply inapproaite in size, decor, and location, to house theVery Presence of My God!

Communion under both species

“causing the need?” for ordinary (lay) ministers of communion

communion in the hand (like bread!) not on the tongue like something actually Sacred.

altar girls

lay lectors

mass being “said for the people” rather than Mass Emphasis celebtrating and making Present “time N’ again” the very Sacrifice of Christ, but now in a unbloody manner.

Papal Indults were granted AFTER these practices had already (in disobedience) become the norms. Thus Rome was forced into accepting practces that have factually been proven to be dementrail to the faith (and possibly the salvation???) on a great many catholics.

One need only review mass attendance, reception of the sacraments (especially Reconcillation), review the percentage of present day “catholics” who who not accept RCC teaching authority UNLESS it happens to meet with there personal approval, to see the validity of this post. Look at the number of Catholic Schools closed in the past 25 years, and the numbers of closed parishes. SHOCKING!

I personally have never seen the likes of what you are describing.

I suspect you have, but may not have recogonized it?

My goal was not to disrespect anyone. I have not tried to offend anyone. I asked a question for a true answer. Since I did NOT live through the changes and since I have no clue what the Pre VII Church was like, I wanted to know why the changes could not be accepted. No offense was intended and I wish to appologize if anyone has taken offense to my question.

Nor do I.

I take NO joy or satisfaction with this post. But the situtation is only going to improve if we return to a sense of “The Holy,” again teach and practice acts that are pious and fitting, get the laity to stop doing what priest were Ordained to do, trained to do, and Blessed to do.

Mass is “for us” BUT about the Sacrifice of Christ for us. Amen:thumbsup:

GOd bless you,

PJM m.c.

BVM please lead us to you Son Jesus!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I had to back up and read through this thread…

I was a teenager in high school at the conclusion of Vatican II. I was an altarboy in my parish and I sang in the choir at my Catholic boy’s high school. I was perfectly comfortable with chant and sacred motets in Latin. I wanted to take Latin but my folks put their feet down and made me take Spanish (because it was more relevant. As if I couldn’t see that Spanish was derived from Latin. ). I was inducted into the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart as a freshman and spent many a lunch hour in the Brother’s Chapel before the Blessed Sacrament.

In May of 1967, the last First Friday Mass for the year was in Latin. The Brothers still wore cassocks with big rosaries as cinctures around their waists. The Mass was a Missa Cantata with us singing traditional Catholic hymns as well as singing the plaingsong in Latin for the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, etc.

In September of 1967, I came back to the Brothers in white shirts, black slacks, and black ties. Out went the organ and here came my classmates with guitars. I have a 1965 St. Joseph Missal and the hybrid Mass that was celebrated doesn’t even remotely resemble what was done.

The same thing was done in my home parish. There was the 1965 Missal and then there was the missalette. One had the Missal about what should or could have been done and then there was the missalette and the relentless announcement from the pulpit that “in two weeks we will no longer chant the Gloria in Latin. It will be chanted in English.” I was the senior altarboy for my parish in 1967 and I went down on bended knee to kiss Archbishop Hannan’s ring. It was as normal to me as the sun rising in the east.

We obeyed the magisterium of HMC without thinking back then. When I read the concilliar documents today, what happened in the summer of 1967 was not what the Council intended.

On the other hand, there were positive developments. I am a product of a mixed marriage. My father was Protestant and he and my mother had to get married in the sacristy after getting permission from the archbishop no less in 1947. My father was the one who got me up at 5:15 and drove me to serve six a.m. Mass. My father promised to raise his kids Catholic and he worked two jobs to put the three of us through Catholic school.

His father was Catholic and married my divorced grandmother in the teens. He was excommunicated from HMC. My maternal great-aunt and my paternal great-aunt were friends and the only time I was ever exposed to my grandfather’s family was on All Saints Day when my Aunt Claire would take my brother, sister, and me over to my father’s family grave to visit with my great Aunt Sophie. We had to get permission from our parish priest to attend my grandmother’s memorial service at her Protestant church in 1967. My father began attending Mass with us in 1968 as did DW’s mother (she was a mixed marriage too).

Unless you grew up in the period, you have no idea of the fear we children felt for our Protestant parents. No salvation outside the Church. Think about it. The Mass in English resulted in the conversion of my father and my MIL. Deo gratias ite Deo gratias!

I’m still in touch with one of my dear friends from high school…spoke to him last week. We have a 40th class reunion coming up in May. F. still plays his guitar and sings in his parish’s choir. I sang in the cathedral choir here for 20 years. F. pushed the envelope at school such that for our graduation Mass in May, 1969, we sang Simon and Garfunkles’ “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence”. Many of you are probably saying. so?

I saw my mother marginalized as a Catholic in the 70s. When the guitars started, she changed from going from the 10 am “main” Mass to the 8am. When the guitars started in the 8 am Mass, she and my neighbors began attending the Vigil Mass on Saturday.

In short, we had our roots ripped out and handed to us as a matter of course. How could that not be traumatic?

 

[weepixie71]

i am a cradle catholic born and raised in the novus ordo. i used to love going to mass. not anymore. as a matter of fact i feel the need to cry when i have to go to the novus ordo. i love the tlm but we dont always have it here. i cry because it doesnt feel catholic. the lack of respect is overwhelming to me. teenagers slouched in the seats looking like they just rolled out of bed and would love to be anywhere but there. men look like they are going to go play golf instead of receive God. women dressed so immodestly that the priest has to look down at his shoes so he doesnt get impure thoughts. dont catholics remember how beautiful the churches were. how proud we were to express our catholic history? we stripped our churches of everything catholics are supposed to be proud of. alter girls acting as future priests!!! stealing graces from those poor boys who very well could be our future priests.
the pope says that it is a valid consecration. and i have to trust that God is protecting His church… one more thought that is hard for me to swallow. we are worshiping and making his home like protestants. it seems strange to me that we want to mimic the very people who protest against the catholic faith anyway. i sorry if this makes me a catholic snob or judgemental… i personally like to call myself observant. i refuse to let myself be led by the nose when everything in my heart tells me this feels wrong. it feels protestant.

 

[AlanF]

i am a cradle catholic born and raised in the novus ordo. i used to love going to mass. not anymore. as a matter of fact i feel the need to cry when i have to go to the novus ordo. i love the tlm but we dont always have it here. i cry because it doesnt feel catholic. the lack of respect is overwhelming to me. teenagers slouched in the seats looking like they just rolled out of bed and would love to be anywhere but there. men look like they are going to go play golf instead of receive God. women dressed so immodestly that the priest has to look down at his shoes so he doesnt get impure thoughts. dont catholics remember how beautiful the churches were. how proud we were to express our catholic history? we stripped our churches of everything catholics are supposed to be proud of. alter girls acting as future priests!!! stealing graces from those poor boys who very well could be our future priests.
the pope says that it is a valid consecration. and i have to trust that God is protecting His church… one more thought that is hard for me to swallow. we are worshiping and making his home like protestants. it seems strange to me that we want to mimic the very people who protest against the catholic faith anyway. i sorry if this makes me a catholic snob or judgemental… i personally like to call myself observant. i refuse to let myself be led by the nose when everything in my heart tells me this feels wrong. it feels protestant.

I don’t think it makes you a snob or judgemental, lots of people feel this way, an increasing number I think.

I feel this way, I’ve never actually been to a TLM but since I found out what it’s all about I’ve realised what we’ve lost (hopefully not permanently) and the Novus Ordo doesn’t really seem catholic to me either.

 

[CradleCath]

. I sang in the cathedral choir here for 20 years. F. pushed the envelope at school such that for our graduation Mass in May, 1969, we sang Simon and Garfunkles’ “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence”. Many of you are probably saying. so?

You are bringing back memories, Brotherholf…bad one. . How often did you have to listen to a priest strummin’ Dylan’s “Blowin’ in the Wind”. I heard it WAY too many times.

 

[JW10631]

There is a world of difference between “change” and what actually occurred in the Latin Church after VII.

The TLM ceased to be celebrated in almost every Latin Catholic diocese in the world after the introduction of the Missal of Pope Paul VI. Most bishops took the new missal to mean that the TLM was to be suppressed - no longer to be celebrated - ever. Pope Benedict cleared that up once and for all, but many bishops still haven’t “got the message”.

Ripping out the old altars, the side altars, the statues, the Communion rails and the organs to be replaced with Marty Haugen songs, Eucharistic ministers (when we don’t need them) and communion in the hand aren’t changes. They are about getting rid of what was celebrated for centuries and replacing it with drivel. Most churches built since the 1960s look like an architectual school dropout designed them on a piece of paper towel. Beauty was ejected and banality was implemented. The previous Church calendar was scrapped and now we have “Ordinary Time” instead of the Sundays after Epiphany, the Sundays after Pentecost, and the Setpuageisma (the time to prepare for Lent).

The Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox did not scrap these seasons. Only in the New Mass were they scrapped and it is to our detriment.

Those Catholics who have kept to Holy Tradition, who have weathered the storm and continue to do so, often have a hard time cotaining their bitterness and I can’t blame them. As far as I am concerned the “changes” were implemented to make the Catholic Church more appealing to Protestants. If that was indeed the goal, it has been a resounding failure.

 

[brotherhrolf]

You are bringing back memories, Brotherholf…bad one. . How often did you have to listen to a priest strummin’ Dylan’s “Blowin’ in the Wind”. I heard it WAY too many times.

Or the now not quite PC “Sons of God” or “They’ll Know We Are Christians”… Neither come anywhere close to “To Jesus Christ our Sovreign King” or “Come Holy Ghost” (when was the last time you heard that sung?).

And then out went the Communion rails. I can remember when the Sign of Peace was introduced. We simply turned and nodded and said “Peace be with you”. Hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer? Where is that in the GIRM?

Change? How did we go from maintaining a strict silence once one entered the church and into the Presence and being able to kneel and pray before Mass without people treating church as a social hall? Save the gab for coffee and donuts after Mass!

Change is difficult to swallow only if you understand that which has come before and that which was lost.

 

[elts1956]

Maybe I am missing something then. Why all the venom for Vatican II? Not just the Mass. Everything that Vatican II brought about.

Am I mistaken in believing that the majority of Traditional Catholics disagree with the majority of Vatican II?

I consider myself a Traditional Catholic who accepts all legitimate changes that have come about during and after Vatican II. Legitimate, therein lies the problem. I don’t know (didn’t pay much attention) to the changes in liturgy regarding the TLM and NO Masses. That still does not concern me overmuch, although I am beginning to hunger for all the pomp and splendor of a TLM. What I am concerned about are the abuses in some dioceses herre in the U.S. regarding the liturgy that did come about as a result of some renegade priests/Bishops after Vatican II. deciding to personally interpret the liturgy and teachings of the church ie., have heard about clown masses, other changes in the format of the liturgy in some areas etc.

There also seems to be a weakening in catechesis in the Church now. Sort of a believe what you want to believe attitude.

My awareness reached a peak (still have a long way to go) during this past election when I realized how much at varience some of the Bishops are in teaching the members of their dioceses in regard to what were the intrinsic evils being debated on the ballot in this past presidential election.

As I said, I am just becoming aware as to the depth of misinformation, misguidance and weakening of the Catholic Faith that has happened after Vatican II.

In no way, am I blaming Vatican II itself for the shape the Church is in today. I am holding responsible those priests and bishops who have not remained true to the teachings of the Catholic Church which are still the same teachings as they were before the Council.

Change can be accepted as long as it doesn’t tear at the foundations of the truths of the Church.

I personally believe our Church is in great trouble because of lack of leadership since Vatican II.