Why is Church not growing?

[aball1035]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

 

[Monica4316]

The Church seems to be growing more in other parts of the world now.

But even here in North America/Europe, people are converting to Catholicism me, for example.

God bless

 

[selylidne]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

My opinion is that it has to do with misunderstandings of what Vatican II was about. Many people (but not all) miss the reverence and awe that used to be hallmarks of Mass. At least around here, there are scores of parishes, but none where you can expect an atmosphere reflective of the transcendant realities happening before you. There is one parish that does the Extraordinary Form, but they do it so dreadfully badly that it’s not worth it.

Probably related to this is that the Church has been very, very bad at explaining Herself in recent years. In RCIA this past Sunday, the topic to be explained was the Eucharist. I can’t imagine another topic being more important to Catholics. Yet the explanation was so vague, so eager to hide the hard parts, that several catechumens clearly came away with Zwinglian ideas. (Fortunately, some sponsors and knowledgable catechumens corrected the instructor and tried to explain it to the others.)

Perhaps also related to the above is the sex abuse scandal. The hierarchy plainly put its secular reputation above the welfare of the laity. Those horrible sins and the hypocrisy of them have been a great obstacle.

 

[Ottaviani]

let see… where do we start? maybe the reign of relativism and liberalism we’re currently infected with.

and freemasons.

 

[Cat]

We are not growing because there are so many more choices than there were in the time of St. Augustine.

Back then, converting to Christianity actually had some attractions for people, especially the attraction of a hope for an eternity in heaven. But today, we try to have heaven on earth, and many people have no interest in an eternal afterlife playing the harp and praying. In fact, many people foolishly say that they would rather go to hell where all their friends are.

Christianity is seen as oppressive rather than liberating–e.g., a Christian is not supposed to have sex outside of marriage, which means that all who are co-habiting, and that includes homosexuals, are living in sin. That all sounds soooo intolerant and old-fashioned and nonsensical, doesn’t it?

Nowadays, people have knowledge of all kinds of “religions” and “philosophies,” and many people choose to try these instead of traditional Christianity. Back in the day of St. Augustine, most people didn’t know about anything outside of their own village or town.

And there is the choice of atheism or agnosticism. Various philosophers since St. Augustine have written entire works of apologetics defending lack of belief in God, and many people fall for these arguments and buy into nothing.

One of the choices that is available nowadays that wasn’t available in St. Augustine’s time is Protestant Christianity, which is a “Christianity Lite.” People find this brand of Christianity very appealing.

Yes, there are those, including many on this section of CA, who are seeking a “traditional reverent” experience and despise the innovations and theatrics of many Protestant worship services.

But like it or not, admit it or not, there are many many more who are thrilled by the modern music, drama, and technology of a modern Protestant worship service. Add to this the dynamic speakers from the pulpit who utilize the Bible throughout their sermons to “teach” people, and a friendly group of lay people who greet you in the lobby and invite you to various fellowships and activities, and you have a very attractive “church experience.”.

And then there are the Protestant churches (often called “Emergent”) who ARE offering the Traditional trappings of Christianity–candles, chant, Latin, classical music, written prayers, lectio divina, etc. You see, they are smart–they are determined to attract all those people who are seeking the “traditional” Christianity.

The local Protestant megachurch in our city attracts over 10,000 (ten thousand) people every Sunday–that’s almost a tenth of our city’s population. The local large Catholic parish (mine) has over 7000 people enrolled, but only a few thousand attend one of nine Masses every weekend. And we offer a complete “program” of various styles of Masses.

And the local TLM oratory, which has been around since the 1980s with the full blessing of the bishop, attracts a few hundred families total in several Sunday Masses. People are not beating down the door for this “traditional” experience.

Make no mistake and do not hold sweet illusions about the TLM or the OF Masses–the new Protestant churches, especially the evangelical churches, WILL attract many people, including many Catholics.

I’m not saying that the Catholic Church should try to become like these churches–don’t put words into my mouth.

What I am saying is that the Catholic Church should do whatever it does as WELL as it can. Priests should be trained to speak well in their homilies and give good, pithy homilies, not just fluffy stuff about universal love. And since the rubrics allow for more modern music in Mass, well then, go for it, not all the time, but during various Masses. Provide a variety of Masses, since the rubrics allow it. Yes, there should be TLMs and extremely traditional OF Masses in every diocese and if possible, in every sizeable town or city. It would be silly to take options AWAY from people, when the Protestant churches give people so MANY options!

Above all, the Catholic Church should continue to lift up Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Bible says that “if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.”

 

[Joannm]

I agree Cat with what you are saying. We have a non denominational church down the road that is attracting many of our parishioners, esecially the young ones. Why? They tell us the music is more upbeat, the sermons aren’t always about sin, they always have food and hospitality after services, and, get this, their youth group goes on trips to the most exciting places. They don’t seem to care that it does not have the Eucharist or other sacraments. They know that they are all welcome, if they are divorced, living together, gay or straight. They don’t have to follow so many rules.

So it has nothing to do with the fact that we are not celebrating the Latin Mass or using Gregorian chant. Those things would keep these people away even more. Now I am not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting we tailor our liturgical celebrations to be more like the church down the road, but we need to look at what is attracting them and figure out how to make people aware of what being a Catholic really means and the richness and truth of our faith.

 

[Snerticus]

I just think it’s part of the prophecy Christ gave us about the end times. Mind you, I dont’ think the world is going to end anytime soon. “Many people’s love will grow cold”, “brother fighting brother” etc…

But that’s just me. I’m sure past generations saw it that way too.

 

[thistle]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

Its growing in Asia and in Africa Catholicism is the fastest growing religion.

 

[Lainey63]

My personal opinion if it means anything is that at least we here in USA have way too many “toys”-we rely on self-sufficancy. We are to enthralled with our cars, houses, we are seduced by fame, gaining respect within our fields of business, our communities, I know so and so…on & on it goes. While the history of mankind seems to go around in a circle…because the world seems to be much smaller than it ever was because of our technology. We don’t seem to fear nature’s wrath…hurricanes & such. Only the ones who are blessed are shown by God how much we need Him-some by financial hardships, illnesses etc. Sometimes I am amazed at what society as a whole finds virtuous and what it abhors…I’m thinking of abortion. I am also amazed at how much pagan religions have grown just in my adultlife…I think it is a combination of everything-while some blame VII-I see that “the world” has much influence…especially Hollywood-watching some of these music videos is like watching a porn flick. Some christians go absolutely nuts if their kids watch Harry Potter-but they don’t have a problem letting their kids watch other films filled with sex & violence…how much sense does that make?

 

[Snerticus]

…the rise of secularism.

 

[bilop]

I think the Apocolypse of St. John, 3:14-17 sums it up.

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.
16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Most modern Catholics in the West, are lukewarm (they take what they want of the Church teachings and reject the rest) and they put stock in material things.

God Bless

 

[weepixie71]

i think it is because of numerous reasons.

so many changes in such a short period of time in the mass. change is good sometimes dont get me wrong… when you make too many changes then throw in drastic changes it makes people think instability.

political, sex scandals, schisms.
birth control, abortion, swept under the rug sex scandals, determined to change a mass even if it meant losing many of its flock.

priests have started to appear, for lack of a better word, cowardly at the pulpit. like if they said the wrong thing that the congregation would get up and leave. when people dressed much nicer for mass didnt the priest still speak of the importance of modesty? did he not at one time slam and shake his fist preaching about hell? there is no more talk about a judicial God, just a loving one. priests became friends instead of leaders.

the Catholic church used to appear more unified. it was known worldwide for its unity. now there are how many different masses? russian orthodox, greek orthodox, byzantine, novus ordo, indult tridentine, etc. if you do not like one priest has to say, or how a mass is done, well thats all right we can just go to another mass. (how is this thought process any different than a protestant?) remember when you used to buy a house you had to consider what parish it was in? not anymore.

the Catholic church worldwide used to appear strong and unshakable, now looks infiltrateable with loose morals since so many bishops are ignoring the popes wishes on how he wants things done.

 

[latinmasslover]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

Look around at the majority of Catholics today. Or just read the forums. Who would want to join? Honestly? It appears no different than the Baptist ecclesial communities. To each his own…God loves all therefore we can do whatever we want…there are no standards…the Church’s spirit has become a universal Blah.

If priests and bishops got their act together and started doing their jobs - got their minds out of the government, politics, money, etc, and started focusing, on say, the *souls *of the flock entrusted to them - people would be attracted to the Church and she would begin to grow again.

 

[latinmasslover]

The priests and bishops have become lazy, politic-kissing “men” who are interested in either money and power, or winning some popularity contest. When they start doing their jobs - caring for the souls entrusted to them - the Church will begin to grow again.

 

[Eucharisted]

he Catholic Church is always growing, not only on earth but also in purgatory and heaven.

 

[LynnGM]

I am going to say some of what others have said.

It’s the rise of liberalism, secularism, acceptance of Freemasonry, Vatican II, etc.

I agree, we are taught that Christianity is oppressive. The Catholic church has been given an especially bad reputation. I believe the abuse scandals discouraged some Catholics from continuing in the church.

Yes, we have many options for church. And it doesn’t even have to be Christian. We can go to a Unitarian Universalist church and not understand the implications of this decision. We have not been educated in our Catholicism. CCD programs have failed Gen X and Yers.

We need to “go back” to pre Vatican II. But, this is only my opinion.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

It’s easy to be a rapidly growing religion. If you have 2 persons and 2 more join, you have increased by 200%. Conversely, if you have 1,100,000,000 persons and two more join, you have increased by 0.0000000018%. Not a large percentage in terms of growth.

 

[Snerticus]

I am reading St. Augustine’s Confessions and it seems like in that era the Church was spreading rapidly. I’m wondering why it isn’t doing this today. Why are seminaries shrinking and Catholics not as fervent as they used to be?

For example, compared to just 50 years ago, church and confession attendance has gone down, knowledge about sacraments decreased, etc.

LOL, I blame the '60s!

 

[Scottgun]

I’ve heard it explained that in Augustine’s time, that the heathens were like a virgin bride eagerly awaiting the groom of the Gospel, so it spread like wildfire. In contrast, after the reformation, the rise of relativism, and the tyrannical anarchy of liberalism, the heathen is more like a bitter divorcée.

But as others said, look to places like Africa and Asia to rise to be the primary carriers of the flame.

 

[Black_Dog]

Secularism, liberalism…then how come there is so much interest in New Age Religions/philosophies? There are a lot of people out there who sense there is something more than their humdrum materialist lifestyle. So why arent they turning to the Catholic Church?

From my own experience as someone converting to Catholicism, the biggest stumbling block to people searching for a spiritual dimension are the sex abuse scandals and particularly the way the Church attempted to cover them up. This has so appalled so many people that Catholicism just doesnt figure on their horizons. They dont know about Vatican 2 or any other of the issues currently being debated within the Church. They dont care. For them the Catholic Church is no more than a bunch of evil hypocrites who abused innocent and vulnerable children.
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