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gatorsmom
Guest
I’m very interested in the topics over in Traditional Catholicism but the posters there seem so angry and impatient with each other. It’s kind of a negative place to be. Any thoughts?
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Cracker_Mom
Guest
Cause some folks in traditional Catholicism are kind of negative…They feel strongly about things which is all good in it’s place but sometimes get out of balance.There’s a fine line between holding fast to what’s true & being holier than the pope.
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daeve
Guest
They are very convicted about what they think is right and reverant and there are many things in today’s liturgy that they can’t tolerate. Music, Communion in the hand, sometimes even women covering their head (which many call veiling
) are very important to them.
Gator(name removed by moderator), my kids are Mooey, age 28, and Yogurt T. Bear, almost 30. Mooey is because Yogi couldn’t say Moosie when he was 2.
) are very important to them.Gator(name removed by moderator), my kids are Mooey, age 28, and Yogurt T. Bear, almost 30. Mooey is because Yogi couldn’t say Moosie when he was 2.
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The_Fool
Guest
It might also be that they simply expect people to know who they feel already and to understand what their reaction will be based on the title of the forum. I know I would get frustrated if I had to keep telling people what I thought was basic common sense. They’re not angry at people, I think, just frustrated. Think of the stereotype of the mailman and the mail that never ends.
Um… I post there? Did I come off as angry or impatient; that is not my intention. I apologize for presenting a bad example of Christian charity if that is the case.
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James0235
Guest
A multitude of reasons I would imagine.
For starters I think it is just the nature of the internet that things can get a bit more heated when you aren’t actually speaking face to face. Many people who are a little short with one another probably would not be if they were speaking face to face.
Second, I think it might be zeal. Many of the regualar posters in the TC Forum are ardent defenders of the Catholic faith - as I’m sure a good deal of the members of CAF are. The difference might be that many in the TC Forum have had to defend the faith against their pastors, their bishop, and sometimes their fellow Catholic.
It is a sad fact that in many places “Traditional Catholics” are a persecuted group. Many bishops refused to allow them access to a form of Mass that especially spoke to the hearts. The common claim was that the “Tridentine Mass” was forbidden. But, according to Pope Benedict himself, the Church never forbid it.
So, given their experiences I believe that many Traditional Catholics tend to be very zealous - over zealous at time - but all out of love for Christ and His Church.
Third, I am sure that not a few people who post regularly over there have literally had to flee their own parishes and seek out a Mass that is God-centered. I know from personal experience that it can have a profoundly negative effect on you to have to witness your own pastor commit mortal sin week after week as he twists the Liturgy into something of his own making.
We have a right to a licit Mass.
On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.
(Redemptionis Sacramentum 12)
And unless you have experienced these painful abuses I don’t know if anyone can truly understand what that does to you.Thankfully, Pope Benedict seems to understand the harm this can cause to a person:
This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.
(Pope Benedict’s Explanatory Letter to Bishops on Summorum Pontificum)
And lastly, some people are just jerks.
Just some thoughts.
James
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pnewton
Guest
Some of the ones I know have a smoldering anger over unjust treatment both now and in the past. Much of it is understandable and justified. They here what the Holy Father says that should be done to accommadate their type of spirituality and then see these directives ignored. This I understand
Also, we have the problem that the sort of spirituality that emphasizes tradition above all else will naturally attract the pharisee that likes to feel they are superior to those around them, even the leaders of the Church. As with all groups, these are rare, but they do keep things in an uproar.
Finally, you get those that go over there just to bait the angry and the holy than thou. These are the most difficult to understand. We all have our issues and weaknesses. Provoking the easily provoked is nothing to be proud of.
Also, we have the problem that the sort of spirituality that emphasizes tradition above all else will naturally attract the pharisee that likes to feel they are superior to those around them, even the leaders of the Church. As with all groups, these are rare, but they do keep things in an uproar.
Finally, you get those that go over there just to bait the angry and the holy than thou. These are the most difficult to understand. We all have our issues and weaknesses. Provoking the easily provoked is nothing to be proud of.
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gatorsmom
Guest
I totally agree with you. And I can understand this. We are members of a very liberal church where even the elders of the parish have encouraged me to use birth control and I have been very outspoken against it. We live in full communion with the Church, promote this life and do so joyfully. We would attend a different parish more in line with our beliefs but the truth is it is EASIER to have a big family at this parish. They are accept that we will be in the cry room MOST of the mass and actually bring the Eucharist to us in the cry room. They do what they can to accommodate my big family as well as a couple of other families that attend with 4+ children. I just haven’t found that yet in a more traditional church (in the few traditional churches we’ve been to, the priests would stare at us until the babies quieted down or we got up and left. When you are alone in a pew with 4 kids because the husband is away on business it’s nearly impossible to walk out). It almost makes one not want to go to church. Sadly, i have friends who attend the nearby bigbox Evangelical church for this reason. Everyone feels welcome. It’s frustrating that my lifestyle- the one the Church dictates-seems to just feel more accepted at less traditional churches. But I digress.Second, I think it might be zeal. Many of the regualar posters in the TC Forum are ardent defenders of the Catholic faith - as I’m sure a good deal of the members of CAF are. The difference might be that many in the TC Forum have had to defend the faith against their pastors, their bishop, and sometimes their fellow Catholic.
It is a sad fact that in many places “Traditional Catholics” are a persecuted group. Many bishops refused to allow them access to a form of Mass that especially spoke to the hearts. The common claim was that the “Tridentine Mass” was forbidden. But, according to Pope Benedict himself, the Church never forbid it.
So, given their experiences I believe that many Traditional Catholics tend to be very zealous - over zealous at time - but all out of love for Christ and His Church.
Third, I am sure that not a few people who post regularly over there have literally had to flee their own parishes and seek out a Mass that is God-centered. I know from personal experience that it can have a profoundly negative effect on you to have to witness your own pastor commit mortal sin week after week as he twists the Liturgy into something of his own making.
We have a right to a licit Mass.
On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.
(Redemptionis Sacramentum 12)
And unless you have experienced these painful abuses I don’t know if anyone can truly understand what that does to you.Thankfully, Pope Benedict seems to understand the harm this can cause to a person:
This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.
(Pope Benedict’s Explanatory Letter to Bishops on Summorum Pontificum)
And lastly, some people are just jerks.
Just some thoughts.
James
Anyway, It’s not everyone over there who is negative(sorry daeve, didn’t mean you either) just a few. Any when you explain it that way, I completely understand their zeal.
Peace!
W
whatevergirl
Guest
I used to not understand the anger, but I think in seeing some of the liberalization of local parishes here in Florida, I can’t help but think that Vatican II led to some of this, not all, some. I believe that Vatican II was a great milestone for the Church, but like many things designed for flexibility, etc…it can be stretched way beyond the original limits it was intended for. I will say though, that one shouldn’t allow abuses or straying from ‘tradition,’ of a few within The Church, to cause them so much anger and angst, that they lose their peace…and serenity in their relationship with Christ. That’s not healthy, either.
But, I can understand their anger, even though I didn’t live through what they experienced. I actually don’t see it as anger for many…I see it as deep, aching sadness. That type of sadness can often be a close cousin to anger.
Just my ramblings.
But, I can understand their anger, even though I didn’t live through what they experienced. I actually don’t see it as anger for many…I see it as deep, aching sadness. That type of sadness can often be a close cousin to anger.
Just my ramblings.
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Dempsey1919
Guest
As others have said, most people who frequent the TC forum are very orthodox and see it as their duty to defend the faith.
It is ironic that traditional Catholicism is viewed as being schismatic or disobedient, because most traditional Catholics are staunch defenders of the faith. Their zeal for the faith sometimes causes them to act uncharitably when they see doctrinal dissent and liturgical abuse all around them. The open dissent of many Catholics is irritating to them, and this is why they sometimes come across as “angry.” While this may be the case, it is worth remembering that they are trying to promote orthodoxy and reproach error. Their intentions are generally noble. They just don’t express their views very well at times.
I would also like to add that traditional Catholics have been effectively persecuted since Vatican II. More often than not, traditional Catholics were viewed with suspicion by most ordinary Catholics. They were viewed as disobedient for attending a Mass that had been banned. Other Catholics said they were trying to be more Catholic than the Pope for fighting for the Tridentine Mass. It turns out that traditionalists were right about the Tridentine Mass. They said all along that it hadn’t been banned even when bishops and priests told them it was forbidden. Many people scolded traditionalists as being divisive for preferring the traditional Latin Mass over the Mass of Paul VI. However, Summorum Pontificum proved that the Tridentine Mass had never been abrogated. It confirmed what traditional Catholics already knew.
Some traditionalists have become very defensive because of the persecution they had to face. Over the years, other Catholics have treated them like lepers solely because they preferred the Latin Mass and defended the eternal teachings of the Church. Things are getting better now that Benedict is pope, but it is a slow process. Traditional Catholics are beginning to feel accepted by the Church for the first time in years. We now have free access to our Mass, and our thoughts, worries and concerns are now being listened to by the Magisterium. The traditionalist movement is becoming more mainstream because of the work of the Holy Father, and I expect to see changes over in the TC forum to reflect this. Traditionalists are finally being accepted by the rest of the Church, and I hope the mood over in the TC forum will lighten as this becomes more apparent.
It is ironic that traditional Catholicism is viewed as being schismatic or disobedient, because most traditional Catholics are staunch defenders of the faith. Their zeal for the faith sometimes causes them to act uncharitably when they see doctrinal dissent and liturgical abuse all around them. The open dissent of many Catholics is irritating to them, and this is why they sometimes come across as “angry.” While this may be the case, it is worth remembering that they are trying to promote orthodoxy and reproach error. Their intentions are generally noble. They just don’t express their views very well at times.
I would also like to add that traditional Catholics have been effectively persecuted since Vatican II. More often than not, traditional Catholics were viewed with suspicion by most ordinary Catholics. They were viewed as disobedient for attending a Mass that had been banned. Other Catholics said they were trying to be more Catholic than the Pope for fighting for the Tridentine Mass. It turns out that traditionalists were right about the Tridentine Mass. They said all along that it hadn’t been banned even when bishops and priests told them it was forbidden. Many people scolded traditionalists as being divisive for preferring the traditional Latin Mass over the Mass of Paul VI. However, Summorum Pontificum proved that the Tridentine Mass had never been abrogated. It confirmed what traditional Catholics already knew.
Some traditionalists have become very defensive because of the persecution they had to face. Over the years, other Catholics have treated them like lepers solely because they preferred the Latin Mass and defended the eternal teachings of the Church. Things are getting better now that Benedict is pope, but it is a slow process. Traditional Catholics are beginning to feel accepted by the Church for the first time in years. We now have free access to our Mass, and our thoughts, worries and concerns are now being listened to by the Magisterium. The traditionalist movement is becoming more mainstream because of the work of the Holy Father, and I expect to see changes over in the TC forum to reflect this. Traditionalists are finally being accepted by the rest of the Church, and I hope the mood over in the TC forum will lighten as this becomes more apparent.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I have recently started posting over there, and I see a lot of, uhm, conviction, of belief there. If you are in a church that holds objective Truth, well, then, it’s easy to be a little inflexible.
There is one organization that is also a little controversial. Some would defend it to the death, and others seem to want to prove it’s schismatic.
That’s sort of the undercurrent there.
That said, i am very glad I started frequenting the TC forum. Many people striving to understand and striving to do the right thing. There are a lot of good points being made about the lack of reverence in today’s Church stemming from a lack of Catholic Identity - fostered by a total stripping of everything pre-1965.
There, I said it! They rub off on you.
There is one organization that is also a little controversial. Some would defend it to the death, and others seem to want to prove it’s schismatic.
That’s sort of the undercurrent there.
That said, i am very glad I started frequenting the TC forum. Many people striving to understand and striving to do the right thing. There are a lot of good points being made about the lack of reverence in today’s Church stemming from a lack of Catholic Identity - fostered by a total stripping of everything pre-1965.
There, I said it! They rub off on you.
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pnewton
Guest
Another reason that forum seems angrier than here is the way it is moderated. It is given more lattitude than some of the others. This forum is more family oriented and I have still seen some pretty hot debates over breastfeeding, immunizations and schooling. If we were given more lattitude here, we might give in to our baser natures more often.
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daeve
Guest
Not me, kid. I’m one of the most positive people you’ll ever meet. A friend at work says I’ll always look for the best in a crabby person, and give anyone the benefit of the doubt. You didn’t offend me at all.
I may not be quite as zealous as some, but I surely do admire people who are so dedicated to what they believe is right.
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ack
Guest
I have no idea, but I stay far away from that forum and spend most of my time on this one.
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Blade_and_Blood
Guest
Try visiting the Non-Catholic threads. People (me, especially) are killing each other in the “Atheists:” thread. It’s actually pretty fun, it’s like a mosh pit. 
Anyways, don’t be afraid, just take the heat or argue your position-- make sure you know what you’re talking about. :yup:
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
It’s actually pretty fun, it’s like a mosh pit. Anyways, don’t be afraid, just take the heat or argue your position-- make sure you know what you’re talking about. :yup:
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
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Dauphin
Guest
Look at the state of the Church.
We’re in a situation at least as bad as the height of the Arian heresy. The loss of faith has been catastrophic - beyond description - since the Council.
Naturally, this will provoke some negative feelings. You can bet that arguments from the minority orthodox believers were heated when the vast majority of the bishops didn’t believe that Christ was Divine. There must have been a certain sense of desperation and frustration.
We’re in a situation at least as bad as the height of the Arian heresy. The loss of faith has been catastrophic - beyond description - since the Council.
Naturally, this will provoke some negative feelings. You can bet that arguments from the minority orthodox believers were heated when the vast majority of the bishops didn’t believe that Christ was Divine. There must have been a certain sense of desperation and frustration.
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SedesDomi
Guest
Anger is addictive.
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ChristinaM
Guest
I don’t know, according to some posters we’re pretty mean and angry over here in Family Life. Read some of the recent sterilization/birth control threads…we are clearly all judgmental old biddies who want to run people’s lives for them.
On a more serious note, I don’t really post over in that forum but sometimes I do need to step away from forums/Catholic blogs for a while before my righteous indignation turns into corrosive, bitter anger. It can really bring you down. Sometimes it’s better to just step away and say a prayer.
On a more serious note, I don’t really post over in that forum but sometimes I do need to step away from forums/Catholic blogs for a while before my righteous indignation turns into corrosive, bitter anger. It can really bring you down. Sometimes it’s better to just step away and say a prayer.
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Cat
Guest
I don’t mind when people are zealous in their convictions. I consider myself a zealot about many things.
What I find unacceptable is when people label as “abuses” or worse the things that the Church has declared acceptable. The OF of the Mass is NOT an abuse. The vernacular Mass is NOT an abuse. Communion in the hand is NOT an abuse in the U.S. Neither are altar girls, unveiled women, various styles of music other than chant, guitars, women wearing blue jeans to Mass, men wearing blue jeans to Mass, etc.
Our bishops have the authority to make these kinds of determinations in their dioceses. We need to submit, not rail against them and undermine their God-given authority.
Please allow me to make a statement that I hope the “traditionalists” will think seriously about. The major reason why Protestants “church hop” is anger, which they call “conviction.”
Some Protestants see everything “wrong” with their particular church, from the preaching of the pastor to the music to the curricula in the Sunday school to the youth group wardrobes. Everything is “wrong” or “un-Biblical.” (The only church documents that Protestants recognize is the Bible.) They call meetings and attempt to convince others of the “wrongness” and the need to clean up the church. (Nowadays they probably go online with this instead of just calling a meeting in their home.) They may or may not convince other church members. Eventually they leave their churches.
And this pattern repeats itself over and over again. In their zeal for “the truth,” Protestants hop from church to church to non-church to alternative church to home church…and eventually many of them give up entirely and claim that they are their own church.
They are never content.
Mark my words–this is the danger of constantly finding fault with the Church–that eventually you will abandon the Church entirely.
I agree that liberalism is abominable. I agree that we have a “right” to a licit and valid Mass (and that includes, at least in the U.S., the OF, the vernacular, Communion in the hand, etc.).
But I believe that anger is not the way to accomplish anything in the Church. (See the book of James in the Bible). A quiet spirit of prayer and a charitable demonstration of Christian love is more powerful than anger and debate. We have the promise of the Lord Jesus Christ that He will preserve His Church.
What I find unacceptable is when people label as “abuses” or worse the things that the Church has declared acceptable. The OF of the Mass is NOT an abuse. The vernacular Mass is NOT an abuse. Communion in the hand is NOT an abuse in the U.S. Neither are altar girls, unveiled women, various styles of music other than chant, guitars, women wearing blue jeans to Mass, men wearing blue jeans to Mass, etc.
Our bishops have the authority to make these kinds of determinations in their dioceses. We need to submit, not rail against them and undermine their God-given authority.
Please allow me to make a statement that I hope the “traditionalists” will think seriously about. The major reason why Protestants “church hop” is anger, which they call “conviction.”
Some Protestants see everything “wrong” with their particular church, from the preaching of the pastor to the music to the curricula in the Sunday school to the youth group wardrobes. Everything is “wrong” or “un-Biblical.” (The only church documents that Protestants recognize is the Bible.) They call meetings and attempt to convince others of the “wrongness” and the need to clean up the church. (Nowadays they probably go online with this instead of just calling a meeting in their home.) They may or may not convince other church members. Eventually they leave their churches.
And this pattern repeats itself over and over again. In their zeal for “the truth,” Protestants hop from church to church to non-church to alternative church to home church…and eventually many of them give up entirely and claim that they are their own church.
They are never content.
Mark my words–this is the danger of constantly finding fault with the Church–that eventually you will abandon the Church entirely.
I agree that liberalism is abominable. I agree that we have a “right” to a licit and valid Mass (and that includes, at least in the U.S., the OF, the vernacular, Communion in the hand, etc.).
But I believe that anger is not the way to accomplish anything in the Church. (See the book of James in the Bible). A quiet spirit of prayer and a charitable demonstration of Christian love is more powerful than anger and debate. We have the promise of the Lord Jesus Christ that He will preserve His Church.
D
Dauphin
Guest
I haven’t heard anyone call these things “abuses”. Clearly, the Law of the Church allows them. However, most of the things you list are highly inadvisable deviations from the tradition. There are very good reasons why these things shouldn’t be. Many of them have been condemned by Popes of the past, especially when it comes to things like altar girls and profane music at Mass.
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