Why is faith considered to be such a great virtue?

[PRmerger]

Murder is ok so long as you don’t kill the soul!

Well, it’s impossible to kill the soul, so the above concept is nonsensical.

But I get what you’re attempting to say. And, no, murder is never okay.

So let’s take a look at it this way:

All life is a gift from God–right? (From a Believer’s POV. And, of course, for the sake of this discussion we must presuppose that all are using the Believer’s POV).

Therefore, it is up to God to determine how much of that gift we get. Whether he gives us a day or decades it is his gift to give, and it is his prerogative, as the Creator, to remove it.

And because it is a gift, it is not something he owes us. We therefore cannot claim that God is being unfair if he gives us one amount of this gift rather than another. And if he takes it away as he sees fit. --paraphrased from apologist Jimmy Akin.

 

[ASimon]

God is the Creator of the immortal soul, Simon. And thus, even in Genesis 6-7 souls were not destroyed.

Sadly, there is no mention of any sort of eternal afterlife in the OT. And even if there was, we can be quite certain everyone who wasn’t spared went to Hell. So, basically all God “created” was a worldwide flood to drown nearly every living man and animal, and send those with immortal souls to eternal damnation. Swell guy.

 

[danserr]

Sadly, there is no mention of any sort of eternal afterlife in the OT. And even if there was, we can be quite certain everyone who wasn’t spared went to Hell. So, basically all God “created” was a worldwide flood to drown nearly every living man and animal, and send those with immortal souls to eternal damnation. Swell guy.

It’s a pretty big stretch to assume that everyone who died in the flood (depending how literally we should take that story) went to hell.

Of course there is little mention of heaven in the OT, the OT Jews, like most of their neighbors didn’t believe in it (remember the Greek underworld, Hades?). Luckily, the New Testament goes with the OT and it does refer frequently and explicitly to heaven.

Second, those who died before the coming of Christ were offered the chance to leave the abode of the dead when Christ died and “descended to the dead,” any who chose to accept his offer left, any who refused his offered stayed and remained just where they were, which then became hell.

 

[PRmerger]

Sadly, there is no mention of any sort of eternal afterlife in the OT. And even if there was, we can be quite certain everyone who wasn’t spared went to Hell.

How do you know that, Simon?

So, basically all God “created” was a worldwide flood to drown nearly every living man and animal, and send those with immortal souls to eternal damnation. Swell guy.

I see from your profile that you are an atheist. Most atheists here on the CAFs that I’ve dialogued with were raised in a Christian home, so I will assume the same for you.

But it seems that you were not well catechized in your Christian faith? Or maybe you were raised in some sort of weird cult that had some bizarre views (one of my atheist friends here on the CAFs has that as his history) so that might explain your lack of knowledge regarding what Catholicism professes…

But, if you’re going to be on a CATHOLIC forum discussing with mainly Catholics, it might behoove you to know something about our faith.

Here’s the important part as it applies to this discussion: Catholicism does not proclaim that those who died in the flood went to hell.

Unless you are aware of some Magisterial document that proclaims this? If so, please provide your source. Thanks.

 

[tonyrey]

Of course there is little mention of heaven in the OT, the OT Jews, like most of their neighbors didn’t believe in it (remember the Greek underworld, Hades?).

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”(2 Macch. 12, 46)

 

[ASimon]

How do you know that, Simon?

I see from your profile that you are an atheist. Most atheists here on the CAFs that I’ve dialogued with were raised in a Christian home, so I will assume the same for you.

But it seems that you were not well catechized in your Christian faith? Or maybe you were raised in some sort of weird cult that had some bizarre views (one of my atheist friends here on the CAFs has that as his history) so that might explain your lack of knowledge regarding what Catholicism professes…

But, if you’re going to be on a CATHOLIC forum discussing with mainly Catholics, it might behoove you to know something about our faith.

Here’s the important part as it applies to this discussion: Catholicism does not proclaim that those who died in the flood went to hell.

Unless you are aware of some Magisterial document that proclaims this? If so, please provide your source. Thanks.

My source is the book of Genesis itself. God was upset with how his creation, the human race, was behaving. So he sent a great flood to wipe out everyone, save for Noah and his family.

Now, if we assume that Heaven and Hell were in operation at the time (even though they’re not mentioned in the OT), we’re left with the obvious question - what happened to all those people? Did God send all those vile sinners he drowned to Heaven? In others, did he reward all those people he killed with the greatest thing that could ever happen to anyone?

I’m well aware that Catholicism presumes not to judge who goes to heaven and hell. This is, of course, a very convenient dodge. And very strange, given the level of detail the One True Church gives us on less controversial matters.

 

[danserr]

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”(2 Macch. 12, 46)

Agreed. But that is late. I agree that the Jews came to believe in a positive ending place for the dead, but that only came late as did there belief in Resurrection. Earlier, belief in Sheol was more common, which always seemed to me to be sort of comparable to Hades, a dim place of forgetfulness and sleep.

 

[PRmerger]

My source is the book of Genesis itself. God was upset with how his creation, the human race, was behaving. So he sent a great flood to wipe out everyone, save for Noah and his family.

Ok. Then chapter and verse, please, that says that Noah et al went to hell.

Now, if we assume that Heaven and Hell were in operation at the time (even though they’re not mentioned in the OT)

You do know that heaven was not opened until the atoning death of Christ, right?

That makes your statement above quite puzzling.

Everyone who died before the gates of heaven were opened by Christ did not go to heaven; they did not go to hell.

I’m surprised that you weren’t aware of this, given the Creed that the majority of mainline Christians profess which states that Jesus descended into hell.

Do you know why we say that?

Because that’s the abode of the dead where souls languished until Christ came to proclaim the gospel to them.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m well aware that Catholicism presumes not to judge who goes to heaven and hell.

Heh.

List of people that the Catholic Church has proclaimed to be in heaven.

This is, of course, a very convenient dodge. And very strange, given the level of detail the One True Church gives us on less controversial matters.

Why would it be strange to not judge the degree of a person’s culpability? The Church has never claimed to be able to see into a person’s heart.

Or were you aware of a Magisterial document where she proclaims this ability?

 

[ASimon]

Ok. Then chapter and verse, please, that says that Noah et al went to hell.

You do know that heaven was not opened until the atoning death of Christ, right?

That makes your statement above quite puzzling.

Everyone who died before the gates of heaven were opened by Christ did not go to heaven; they did not go to hell.

I’m surprised that you weren’t aware of this, given the Creed that the majority of mainline Christians profess which states that Jesus descended into hell.

Do you know why we say that?

Because that’s the abode of the dead where souls languished until Christ came to proclaim the gospel to them.

Since you’ve lost the plot so thoroughly, let’s be clear - none of this supports any contention that God is only a Creator, and not a Destroyer (which was the point to begin with). The flood came, drowned almost all the people, and their souls went…well, nowhere, it seems like, since there was no heaven or hell to go to. So, all those people either blinked out of existence, or their souls stayed in some limbo-like state for a few thousand years, until Hell had its grand opening, and THEN they went there. And this is God the Creator at work.

 

[PRmerger]

Since you’ve lost the plot so thoroughly, let’s be clear - none of this supports any contention that God is only a Creator, and not a Destroyer (which was the point to begin with). The flood came, drowned almost all the people, and their souls went…well, nowhere, it seems like, since there was no heaven or hell to go to. So, all those people either blinked out of existence, or their souls stayed in some limbo-like state for a few thousand years, until Hell had its grand opening, and THEN they went there. And this is God the Creator at work.

So you don’t have the chapter and verse in Genesis that says that Noah et al went to hell?



Okay. Then it does make it seem that your comment here was, well, made out of ignorance? Yes?

And even if there was, we can be quite certain everyone who wasn’t spared went to Hell.

Just sayin’…

 

[ASimon]

So you don’t have the chapter and verse in Genesis that says that Noah et al went to hell?



Okay. Then it does make it seem that your comment here was, well, made out of ignorance? Yes?

Just sayin’…

Nice try. You lose.

 

[PRmerger]

The flood came, drowned almost all the people, and their souls went…well, nowhere, it seems like, since there was no heaven or hell to go to. So, all those people either blinked out of existence, or their souls stayed in some limbo-like state for a few thousand years,

You do realize there’s no such thing as “years” after one dies, right?

until Hell had its grand opening, and THEN they went there.

Chapter and verse, please, that says “and THEN they went there.”

And this is God the Creator at work.

God the Creator changes the universe forever each and every time he creates an immortal soul. No soul has ever been destroyed. That makes God a creator, not a destroyer.

 

[PRmerger]

Nice try. You lose.

No chapter and verse, yet?

Didn’t you say you got it from Genesis?

Ah, yes, here it is:

My source is the book of Genesis itself.

Look, Simon, I’m just messin’ with you.

I know that there is no verse in Genesis, or in any other book of the Bible, that says that Noah went to hell.

So no need to search feverishly through the Bible to find it.

It was just a way of pointing out to you that you are not quite familiar with Catholic teaching, and to be more judicious about what you post regarding what we believe.

That’s all I was doing.

Now we can continue our dialogue, 'kay?

 

[ASimon]

You do realize there’s no such thing as “years” after one dies, right?

You tell me. You’re the one who can’t decide what happened to all the people God drowned in the OT. If you no longer have consciousness after you die, then time really doesn’t matter anymore. Nor does anything else. So God killed most of humanity, and from that moment on, they had no consciousness and ceased in every measure. So, God destroyed them.

Chapter and verse, please, that says “and THEN they went there.”

Please cite chapter and verse where the bible says “Chapter and verse.”

 

[ASimon]

No chapter and verse, yet?

Didn’t you say you got it from Genesis?

Ah, yes, here it is:

Look, Simon, I’m just messin’ with you.

I know that there is no verse in Genesis, or in any other book of the Bible, that says that Noah went to hell.

So no need to search feverishly through the Bible to find it.

It was just a way of pointing out to you that you are not quite familiar with Catholic teaching, and to be more judicious about what you post regarding what we believe.

That’s all I was doing.

Now we can continue our dialogue, 'kay?

Please cite for me a Magisterial document that says “kay.”

 

[PRmerger]

You tell me.

No, Simon, there is no such thing as “years” after one dies.

If you no longer have consciousness after you die, then time really doesn’t matter anymore.

'zactly!!

So it really makes your comment about the souls being in a limbo-like state for “thousands of years” moot, no?

So God killed most of humanity, and from that moment on, they had no consciousness and ceased in every measure. So, God destroyed them.

If you want to call being in the abode of the dead “destroyed”, okay.

Please cite chapter and verse where the bible says “Chapter and verse.”

Why do I have to do that? **I **didn’t say that I could find in Genesis that Noah went to hell.

My source is the book of Genesis itself.

 

[PRmerger]

Please cite for me a Magisterial document that says “kay.”

:coffeeread:

 

[Poseidon]

Please cite for me a Magisterial document that says “kay.”

You’re not doing a very good job proving your point here…

 

[ASimon]

You’re not doing a very good job proving your point here…

When the goalposts keep moving, you have to make do.