Why is gluten-free not valid?

[Thorolfr]

What in the world is your point? It has already been proven that Jesus used wheat bread at the Last Supper, because He was celebrating the Passover. The Last Supper (the Passover meal) is the prototype of the Mass.

We have no authority to change that. The history of grain isn’t pertinent to anything - the history of the Passover and the history of Christianity are all that matter.

It hasn’t actually been proven that Jesus was celebrating the Passover:

Against the “single” testimony of the synoptics that the Last Supper was a Passover meal stands the lone Gospel of John, which dates the crucifixion to the “day of Preparation for the Passover” (John 19:14). According to John, Jesus died just when the Passover sacrifice was being offered and before the festival began at sundown (see the sidebar to this article). Any last meal—which John does not record—would have taken place the night before, or even earlier than that. But it certainly could not have been a Passover meal, for Jesus died before the holiday had formally begun.

Moreover, while the narrative in the synoptics situates the Last Supper during Passover, the fact remains that the only foods we are told the disciples ate are bread and wine—the basic elements of any formal Jewish meal. If this was a Passover meal, where is the Passover lamb? Where are the bitter herbs? Where are the four cups of wine?

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/

 

[maryjk]

How would someone with severe celiac disease become an alcoholic?

Hard liquor and beer are both grain-based, and definitely not gluten-free - if someone with celiac disease were drinking to the point of alcoholism, they’d be dead.

That is true with beer. But not hard liquor.

I have Celiac and I am free to drink rum, whiskey, vodka and the like. It isn’t a problem.

 

[jmcrae]

That is true with beer. But not hard liquor.

I have Celiac and I am free to drink rum, whiskey, vodka and the like. It isn’t a problem.

I stand corrected.

Still, I don’t think there are very many cases where you would have someone who has survived celiac disease (which takes incredible self-discipline) who had become an alcoholic.

 

[jmcrae]

It hasn’t actually been proven that Jesus was celebrating the Passover:

It hasn’t been proven to you. It is, however, a fact of history that is well-known to most people.

Read “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn.

Or listen to any of his excellent talks on the Eucharist.

 

[FrDavid96]

It hasn’t actually been proven that Jesus was celebrating the Passover:

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/

I have repeatedly addressed that issue already by making clear that it was either the Passover Meal according to the Synoptics, or the Meal of Preparation according to John.

If one reads my posts very carefully, you will notice that I was careful not to say that it was the Passover meal. Instead, I’ve said that it was Passover time, or more explicitly to offer both ritual meals as possibilities.

Other posts have been more direct in saying it was the Passover Meal, but correcting that serves no purpose, because it was the time of Passover, and according to the Synoptics, it was the Passover Meal—therefore we cannot dismiss that possibility.

Whichever meal it was, doesn’t change the simple fact that unless some other adjective is added to the word to indicate other-than-wheat, then the bread was purely wheaten. That doesn’t change.

 

[FrDavid96]

Wheat was first domesticated in what is now Turkey and was the main staple in that part of the world. But rice was domesticated just as early and was the main staple in many parts of Asia long before there was any wheat there. Native Americans in the New World had no wheat until the Spaniards arrived about 500 years ago and according to some of their folklore, the Creator first fashioned human beings from maize dough. And Native Americans arrived in the New World thousands of years before Abraham walked the earth. So wheat has not been the chief or most important grain for all human beings for most of human history, but only the chief grain for some humans who lived in certain parts of the world.

If I am ever invited to a Native American ritual meal, I would fully expect that the grain would be corn. And I would accept that.

If I am invited to a ritual meal according to any of the traditional Asian religions, I would fully expect the principle grain to be rice. And I would accept that.

When I celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the bread is pure wheaten bread because that is what Christ Himself established. It’s the same for every other priest, because without pure wheaten bread, there is no Mass.

God revealed Himself to Abraham and to Abraham’s descendants. That’s what we call “Salvation History.” That’s what is relevant to the topic of what bread is used at the Mass. The rest of human history (or pre-history) is a separate discipline, and while important, is simply not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[maryjk]

I stand corrected.

Sorry, if I jumped with both feet.

Not being able to drink liquor is a time honored myth that continues to spread.

Still, I don’t think there are very many cases where you would have someone who has survived celiac disease (which takes incredible self-discipline) who had become an alcoholic.

Now that. I agree with.

 

[FrDavid96]

It hasn’t been proven to you. It is, however, a fact of history that is well-known to most people.

Read “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn.

Or listen to any of his excellent talks on the Eucharist.

Actually, no.

According to the Synoptics, it was the Passover Meal.

According to John, it was the “Meal of Preparation” the evening-before the Passover.

That’s critical in John’s Gospel. It’s absolutely essential. Christ was crucified at about Noon (in that year, it was a Friday), the time when the lambs for the Passover Meal were being slaughtered.

That’s the whole point of the “Lamb of God” references (not the cute “lamb in a pasture” image, but a lamb trussed up and being led to the slaughter). Christ is the Passover Lamb. If the Last Supper was the Passover Meal, then the whole timeline falls apart because the Meal is Thursday evening, but the Lamb for the Meal is not slaughtered until half a day later–it wouldn’t make any sense. John’s entire timeline for the Passion events is consistent and very carefully presented. According to the Gospel of John, the Last Supper could not have been the Passover Meal. Again, it was “a” meal of Passover time.

We can certainly call it “a” Passover Meal, because it’s directly related to the Feast, just not “the” Passover Meal.

(Please pardon both the redundancies and the repetitions, it’s Sunday evening in Fall and football is on the TV)

edit:
The above mostly concentrates on John’s Gospel. Please note that the Synoptics do indeed present the Last Supper as the Passover Meal.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, no.

According to the Synoptics, it was the Passover Meal.

According to John, it was the “Meal of Preparation” the evening-before the Passover.

That’s critical in John’s Gospel. It’s absolutely essential. Christ was crucified at about Noon (in that year, it was a Friday), the time when the lambs for the Passover Meal were being slaughtered.

That’s the whole point of the “Lamb of God” references (not the cute “lamb in a pasture” image, but a lamb trussed up and being led to the slaughter). Christ is the Passover Lamb. If the Last Supper was the Passover Meal, then the whole timeline falls apart because the Meal is Thursday evening, but the Lamb for the Meal is not slaughtered until half a day later–it wouldn’t make any sense. John’s entire timeline for the Passion events is consistent and very carefully presented. According to the Gospel of John, the Last Supper could not have been the Passover Meal. Again, it was “a” meal of Passover time.

We can certainly call it “a” Passover Meal, because it’s directly related to the Feast, just not “the” Passover Meal.

(Please pardon both the redundancies and the repetitions, it’s Sunday evening in Fall and football is on the TV)

edit:
The above mostly concentrates on John’s Gospel. Please note that the Synoptics do indeed present the Last Supper as the Passover Meal.

Thanks, In either case, the whole point of it is that Jesus is the Lamb of Passover, as I understand it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I stand corrected.

Still, I don’t think there are very many cases where you would have someone who has survived celiac disease (which takes incredible self-discipline) who had become an alcoholic.

I realize the Catholic Church believes it has an answer for most everything in it’s wealth of compiled writings. But put aside the alcohol for a moment. What about if a person can’t drink from a shared cup (as the son of earlier poster can not) and if this same person is allergic to wheat/gluten? I’m sure there is an answer but I don’t think simply dismissing something due to how many rare cases there may be, is a satisfactory one.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thanks, In either case, the whole point of it is that Jesus is the Lamb of Passover, as I understand it.

Yes. Of course.

The point of the thread though is that it was pure wheaten bread, regardless of whether we’re reading the Synoptics or John; and in order to be wheaten bread as they understood it as the time, and as the Church has constantly understood it, it must have at least a minimal amount of gluten.

 

[FrDavid96]

I realize the Catholic Church believes it has an answer for most everything in it’s wealth of compiled writings. But put aside the alcohol for a moment. What about if a person can’t drink from a shared cup (as the son of earlier poster can not) and if this same person is allergic to wheat/gluten? I’m sure there is an answer but I don’t think simply dismissing something due to how many rare cases there may be, is a satisfactory one.

Actually, that issue was addressed at the very beginning of the thread—maybe not in specifics, but in general.

The Church does everything She can to make the Eucharist available and possible for people who have special dietary restrictions. We do what we can, but we do not do that which we cannot do.

Given all the available accommodations (very low gluten, very low alcohol wine, separate chalices or cups for those who need them, etc. etc.) it’s just a matter of determining what works right for each person.

We can change the non-essentials, and even go to extremes in doing so, but we cannot change anything that is required for the validity of the Sacrament.

 

[Thorolfr]

Actually, that issue was addressed at the very beginning of the thread—maybe not in specifics, but in general.

The Church does everything She can to make the Eucharist available and possible for people who have special dietary restrictions. We do what we can, but we do not do that which we cannot do.

Given all the available accommodations (very low gluten, very low alcohol wine, separate chalices or cups for those who need them, etc. etc.) it’s just a matter of determining what works right for each person.

We can change the non-essentials, and even go to extremes in doing so, but we cannot change anything that is required for the validity of the Sacrament.

I’m sure that wheat bread was eaten at the Last Supper and respect that Catholics believe that wheat bread is required for the validity of the Eucharist. But I also know that there are many non-Catholic Christians, even some who also believe in the Real Presence, who do not believe that the Sacrament requires wheat bread or wine with alcohol to be valid. As the ELCA says in one of their documents:

Wheat flour has traditionally been the staple ingredient in leavened/unleavened bread and in wafers. For those with Celiac disease, allergies or wheat/gluten intolerance, congregations will need to discern what bread/breads to use. The Use of the Means of Grace says in this regard:

For pressing reasons of health, individuals may commune under one element. In
certain circumstances, congregations might decide to place small amounts of nonwheat bread or nonalcoholic wine or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and
congregational decisions are delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the
Church and the people of each local assembly (Application 44 C).

download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/What_kinds_of_bread_are_used_for_Holy_Communion.pdf

As they acknowledge, it’s a “delicate” issue even in ELCA congregations.

 

[Elizium23]

Other ecclesial communities will do whatever it pleases them to do, and it won’t change the fact that they do not have the Real Presence of the Eucharist or they are using invalid matter to attempt it.

 

[Thorolfr]

Other ecclesial communities will do whatever it pleases them to do, and it won’t change the fact that they do not have the Real Presence of the Eucharist or they are using invalid matter to attempt it.

 

[otjm]

I realize the Catholic Church believes it has an answer for most everything in it’s wealth of compiled writings. But put aside the alcohol for a moment. What about if a person can’t drink from a shared cup (as the son of earlier poster can not) and if this same person is allergic to wheat/gluten? I’m sure there is an answer but I don’t think simply dismissing something due to how many rare cases there may be, is a satisfactory one.

There is an answer which is so simple that it almost does not bear stating. We have such an individual in our parish, and he simply receives other than from the common cup.