Why is God so mean?

[alacoque]

I have a good friend, who teaches catholic theology. He and I have discussed this ad nauseum. It is a part of your religion not mine. Plauges were punishment by God.

If you don’t think that’s part of your religion, not much more to say really.

Sorry, but it’s NOT a part of my religion that plagues were a punishment by God…at least not in the simplistic way you state it and quote it. You are referring, of course, to the Scriptures. There are a lot of things in and about the way the Scriptures are set forth that we need to understand and, mostly, we need to be thoroughly educated on the Catholic Church’s interpretation and teaching on the Scriptures, if we are to correctly understand them as Catholics believe and understand them. Faith before understanding!

I will say this, which might help: God always sets forth good and evil; life and death, for His children…this is not only a common theme but basic to the way God operates, if you just take Him at His word and activities. God is love, and motivating all His actions and interactions with us is His infinite love for us and His infinite desire for our best good and highest happiness.

But there is always a choice - made clear - and there is always a loving God (as in the Gospel’s prodigal son) who desires that we choose life and goodness for ourselves and others.

So, your friend’s opinions aside - and I don’t know your friend…he could be a good teacher of theology or a not so good one - I have no idea…but his opinions aside, we know 2 things…

1. We know that God is all good and that God is Love.
2. we know that mankind brings suffering and catastrophe upon himself by the misuse of his freedom (a gift, by the way, that God gave us and continues to sustain in us and gives us, moment by moment, even when we use it to betray and assault Him).

Mankind has done this from the beginning, by his choices. God does NOT “punish” **

** it is we (and has always been we) who, in our seeming inability to see things any other way than through the prism of ‘self’, interpret anything that causes us to lose our pleasure (to whatever degree that may be), as “punishment”. We are very shallow and very limited most times. We would never think of teaching our children that they are correct in assuming that the limitations and consequences of their growing up are nothing more than our sheer desire to see them, our most beloved flesh and blood hurt and suffer (even though they always DO interpret things that way - I’m a parent, I know this).

If you want to be utterly simplistic about it, and if you’re talking specifically about the plagues of Egypt, then I’ll ask you…did Pharaoh have a choice? Was he told by Moses of God’s command and desire and was Pharaoh free in his actions? He doesn’t get off the hook because he didn’t happen to personally know the Israelite God. That wasn’t the point. The point was that the choice was between good and evil, life and death, and every person can comprehend that because it’s part of the natural law and the natural law is written in every heart. Pharaoh did not choose as he did because he was misled (poor pharaoh…); he chose the way he did because he was choosing evil and wanted death for the Israelites.

The fact that suffering and evil are the result of our misuse of freedom does not make God responsible…although mankind has been making it look that way since the beginning and continues to blame God today!

These things CAN and WILL be argued (if they are argued) ad nauseum, because as long as we are in this life and not the one to come, and as long as we are imperfect and on the journey, not yet arrived, we require ‘faith’. Faith is not faith if the the ‘thing’ is already known. God will never, this side of the Beatific Vision and heaven, give us ‘proof positive’ - because our very cooperation in our salvation requires that we ‘believe’, have ‘faith’.

So, at some point, every soul, no matter what they espouse as their belief, has to make a choice. God says He puts before us good and evil, life and death…and urges us to choose life. To that end, He gifts us with immeasurable grace. You take it or you don’t…

What I have laid out IS part of my religion / faith - and that’s ok w/me. Your implications and interpretations are NOT part of my religion / faith.

Good luck to you and you friend…discussing and pursuing all this together will, I’m sure, bring enlightenment of varying degree to both of you. It always does…

God bless you and make His love felt …

 

[PJM]

=Charlemagne II;5325487]anEvilAtheist

I am not willing to give the Christian conception of God the benefit of the doubt, and I am unwilling to give the Flying Spaghetti Monster the benefit of the doubt (since the probability of either one existing is incredibly small).

I agree as to the Spaghetti Monster. Theoretically, by a diligent search of the planet, it should be possible to prove it doesn’t exist. As to the Christian God, He doesn’t hide anywhere you can find Him unless you open your heart to Him.

*So do you think I would rather spend eternity in hell then heaven? *

My general impression is that you don’t want to spend eternity anywhere.

With the grace of God, we can overcome, ignorance, poor logic, even poor theology. What we cannot [and I will not] do is attempt to overcome obstenace bording on:shrug:

Friend, I will share in closing, my remarks that you are making VERY poor use of the Spiritual Gifts God has given you.

I am content that God will judge your heart and your opportunity to have known the truth.

Have a great life, you better enjoy it while you can,

 

[PJM]

=Dameedna;5326774]I have a good friend, who teaches catholic theology. He and I have discussed this ad nauseum. It is a part of your religion not mine. Plauges were punishment by God.

If you don’t think that’s part of your religion, not much more to say really.

Indeed your point is valid and true, however does that fact support the notion that “God is mean?”

Love and prayers,

 

[alacoque]

Yes, I can address this. You are absolutely correct. God could have created a universe without the possibility of evil existing in any shape, form, or matter. God also could have never created anything at all as well.

It is my understanding and belief also that “creation” is not a static event that happened just in the past. Creation is an ongoing event that is occuring even as we speak and human beings are “participants” with God in His creation.

I have a comment on your response. I still disagree that the other poster was correct; they are not. You are correct, I agree, that God had the choice to create or not to create. Beyond that, once He created, He, being perfect, could create no other world than a perfect one (which He did create). This is not due to a limitation existing in God (that He ‘couldn’t’ create a less than perfect world) but rather it would be a contradiction in the reality of ‘perfection’. God is not contradiction, in any form.

As I said in my other post, I do think that God created, originally, a universe (our world - we have no idea about what other ‘worlds’ He may have created for other beings) that was perfect. Original sin brought about what we live with today in terms of our experienced world.

Also, I don’t agree that God could have created a world without the possibility of evil. The possibility of evil is, as I’m sure you know, essential in a world of ‘free’ beings. Since God is Love and since all He does and creates reflects this, and since love, by definition, demands freedom, the possibility of evil had to exist in God’s perfect creation of beings free to love and share in His being/love.

For God to create a world of robots or automatons is absolutely contradictory to His nature and therefore, again (since God cannot contain contradiction in any form) not possible.

Finally, the possibility for evil to come into being / exist does not mean, in any way, that evil must or should exist. That was our choice.

blessings…

 

[StrawberryJam]

If God is Good and God is Love then how can God be so mean?

absolute power corrupts absolutely. We see this in humans, and would like to think God is somehow like he is described, as being above human ways.

Only theists see no conflict in God’s actions when comparing them with his attributes.

 

[alacoque]

absolute power corrupts absolutely. We see this in humans, and would like to think God is somehow like he is described, as being above human ways.

Only theists see no conflict in God’s actions when comparing them with his attributes.

huh? God is a despot? Is that your point? If so, why are you here? This is a Catholic (very! Catholic) forum. So, logically, you are here either a) to amuse yourself by poking believers in the eye or b) you are here sincerely seeking information or data you might be interested in.

if it’s ‘a’, we’ll ignore you because you’re just making trouble and blathering. if it’s ‘b’, we should, by all means engage you.

So, which is it?

 

[StrawberryJam]

huh? God is a despot? Is that your point? If so, why are you here? This is a Catholic (very! Catholic) forum. So, logically, you are here either a) to amuse yourself by poking believers in the eye or b) you are here sincerely seeking information or data you might be interested in.

if it’s ‘a’, we’ll ignore you because you’re just making trouble and blathering. if it’s ‘b’, we should, by all means engage you.

So, which is it?

Nice to meet you also. Comparing the attributes of God and his actions reveal that either the attributes given him are incorrect or God does not show consistancy in exhibiting them at all times. That’s fine with me. I have no preconcieved idea about his having to be fair or just. Believers make these claims about God, and perhaps they are mistaken. One can not be sure based on their defenses they put forth. If they even bother to defend them at all.

 

[Detales]

Actually, alac, it is the either/or mentality demon-starated by your answer to strawberry that you and so many others limit themselves to that many on here are concerned about. It is such a typical Catholic “take” on things exemplifying why such artifical questons as “Why is God so mean?” even have a remote chance of being taken seriously. We have to live with you, and every other variation of human foible around us, not to mention our own. At least here we have a remote chance of dispelling some misunderstandings, so we persist.

 

[alacoque]

Nice to meet you also. Comparing the attributes of God and his actions reveal that either the attributes given him are incorrect or God does not show consistancy in exhibiting them at all times. That’s fine with me. I have no preconcieved idea about his having to be fair or just. Believers make these claims about God, and perhaps they are mistaken. One can not be sure based on their defenses they put forth. If they even bother to defend them at all.

Hi Jam…it IS nice to meet you…forum-wise…I surely didn’t mean any disrespect so apologize if it seemed that way. Forgive me.

Your comments above are very interesting to me. It’s as if you are willing to accept an imperfect God rather than take on, head on, the seeming contradiction(s) you mention. I agree that, in some sense and for many people, these seeming contradictions are very real. The issue lies in how, if possible, to resolve them, no?

I find your position interesting - that you seem willing to accept a God who is less than perfect and less than all powerful and all loving. Such a being wouldn’t really BE God (by all usual definitions of God), in that case, so it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Reminds me of Rabbi Kushner, in his book some years ago, entitiled When Bad Things Happen to Good People. He reached the very unorthodox conclusion that God was loving and had compassion for our suffering but that He was not all powerful and could not do anything about it (suffering). He said he could accept and worship very easily a God who wished He could do something about suffering but just couldn’t, but not a God who could intervene to end suffering and didn’t. Sounds like your position is much the same or at least of the same variety.

Like I said, this view could be much more common even among believers than we realize - I really don’t know…but it bears thinking about and addressing…

I will be back, since I have to leave the forum now for another obligation…but want to give you my two cent’s worth on this, if you care to hear it.

Again, no offense intended and my best to you…

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hi Jam…it IS nice to meet you…forum-wise…I surely didn’t mean any disrespect so apologize if it seemed that way. Forgive me.

Your comments above are very interesting to me. It’s as if you are willing to accept an imperfect God rather than take on, head on, the seeming contradiction(s) you mention. I agree that, in some sense and for many people, these seeming contradictions are very real. The issue lies in how, if possible, to resolve them, no?

I find your position interesting - that you seem willing to accept a God who is less than perfect and less than all powerful and all loving. Such a being wouldn’t really BE God (by all usual definitions of God), in that case, so it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Reminds me of Rabbi Kushner, in his book some years ago, entitiled When Bad Things Happen to Good People. He reached the very unorthodox conclusion that God was loving and had compassion for our suffering but that He was not all powerful and could not do anything about it (suffering). He said he could accept and worship very easily a God who wished He could do something about suffering but just couldn’t, but not a God who could intervene to end suffering and didn’t. Sounds like your position is much the same or at least of the same variety.

Like I said, this view could be much more common even among believers than we realize - I really don’t know…but it bears thinking about and addressing…

I will be back, since I have to leave the forum now for another obligation…but want to give you my two cent’s worth on this, if you care to hear it.

Again, no offense intended and my best to you…

No offense taken.

I am not sure I fit into this Rabbi’s position really. I see no reason why God must be fair or just, or even “perfect”, or how that would discount his being God if he were less than fair, less than just or less than what we consider to be “perfect”.

But, perhaps that goes a bit off topic.

Thank you for your reply, I will also think about what you said.

Kind Regards,

SJ

 

[PJM]

I have a comment on your response. I still disagree that the other poster was correct; they are not. You are correct, I agree, that God had the choice to create or not to create. Beyond that, once He created, He, being perfect, could create no other world than a perfect one (which He did create). This is not due to a limitation existing in God (that He ‘couldn’t’ create a less than perfect world) but rather it would be a contradiction in the reality of ‘perfection’. God is not contradiction, in any form.

As I said in my other post, I do think that God created, originally, a universe (our world - we have no idea about what other ‘worlds’ He may have created for other beings) that was perfect. Original sin brought about what we live with today in terms of our experienced world.

Also, I don’t agree that God could have created a world without the possibility of evil. The possibility of evil is, as I’m sure you know, essential in a world of ‘free’ beings. Since God is Love and since all He does and creates reflects this, and since love, by definition, demands freedom, the possibility of evil had to exist in God’s perfect creation of beings free to love and share in His being/love.

For God to create a world of robots or automatons is absolutely contradictory to His nature and therefore, again (since God cannot contain contradiction in any form) not possible.

Finally, the possibility for evil to come into being / exist does not mean, in any way, that evil must or should exist. That was our choice.

blessings…

***My dear friend,if you are a Catholic you are espoucing a position contrary to the RCC.

As to God being the Creator of everything [what some refer to as the first cause]. IF not God, who, what and when? If God did not Create [meaning precisely to make out of nothing], then we are not Created by that same God either.

Your disagreement that God could not have made a world without evil is also in error, however it does show some thoughtful consideration.

God did not have to Create anything
God did not have to Create humanity
God did not have to Create humanity in “His image and likeness”

Human thought is a “spiritual thing” how can a “Spiritual Thing” produce a “Material thing?”

Something can only be what it is.
Something cannot be what it is not
Something can only share what it has
Something cannot share what it does not possess

God cannot Create Evil! Impossible, it is contrary to the very all-good perfectly Divine Nature of our God.God does however PERMIT evil, that good through the direct intercession of God Himself might come of it.

How are we Created in God’s image? God is “Spirit and TRUTH” [Jn. 4; 24]

We are Created in the very IMAGE of God who is SPIRIT, by virtue of the fact that humanity is gifted with “mind, intellect, and freewill” all of which can be demonistrated, all of which are “Spiritual Things” which we can know because we cannot see, smell or thouch them.

These very attributes, unperfected in humanity, perfect in God, allow us to choose to love God or hate God. Our choice.***

 

[StrawberryJam]

I think in the bible it says God created evil. I know this is contrary to the CCC though.

 

[jkiernan56]

I agree, that God had the choice to create or not to create. Beyond that, once He created, He, being perfect, could create no other world than a perfect one (which He did create).

Also, I don’t agree that God could have created a world without the possibility of evil. The possibility of evil is, as I’m sure you know, essential in a world of ‘free’ beings.

Finally, the possibility for evil to come into being / exist does not mean, in any way, that evil must or should exist.

When I stated God could have created a world without the possibility of evil, you and I were on the same page in our understanding. God could have created a world without BEINGS having the ability to make choices. But as you expressed so well, neither would they have the ability to LOVE - and real love depends on BEINGS having the ability to make choices.

Evil requires the existence of the Good. What is Good does not require Evil to exist in order for the Good to exist. In fact, Evil is nothing other than the corruption of the Good. Take away what is Good - and Evil cannot exist - thus if God had never created, Evil could not and would not exist. Evil necessitates what is Good to exist first.

 

[jkiernan56]

I think in the bible it says God created evil. I know this is contrary to the CCC though.

God did not create evil. Evil cannot exist in a vacuum by itself. It requires what is Good to exist first.

 

[StrawberryJam]

God did not create evil. Evil cannot exist in a vacuum by itself. It requires what is Good to exist first.

I’m sure that is a philosophy of some person, but the bible itself claims God created evil. So, it’s a matter of interpretation of the bible here at issue I suppose.

 

[jkiernan56]

I’m sure that is a philosophy of some person, but the bible itself claims God created evil. So, it’s a matter of interpretation of the bible here at issue I suppose.

It’s not just a matter of interpretation of the Bible, but also which version you are using as well. One of the main problems with Fundamentalism, is that it isolates scripture passages and does not put them IN CONTEXT with ALL of the Bible. Do you know the passage in James where it says that “God cannot be tempted with Evil and does not tempt others”?

Do you also have any understanding of what the Bible means when it talks about God’s Holiness?

For me, it has nothing to do with the interpretation of the Bible - but rather basic philosophical and theological common sense.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Not just a matter of interpretation of the Bible, but also which version you are using as well. One of the main problems with Fundamentalism, is that it isolates scripture passages and does not put them IN CONTEXT with ALL of the Bible. Do you know the passage in James where it says that “God cannot be tempted with Evil and does not tempt others”?

For me, it has nothing to do with the interpretation of the Bible - but rather basic philosophical and theological common sense.

•I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
•Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
•Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

I’m in agreement with you that one can take these verses and say they need context.

I also would agree to dismiss them entirely based on the fact they are simply men speaking here who are merely striving to understand their world and credit a God for the mishaps or fortunes in their lives.

 

[PJM]

=StrawberryJam;5328767]I think in the bible it says God created evil. I know this is contrary to the CCC though.

Psalm 97: 10 "The LORD loves those who hate evil; he preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked"

I did a "Biblical word search on “evil” and couls find no evidence to support your claim.

IF its in the bible, please show us where to find it. GOd who is “all and ONLY all Good perfectly” cannot “create evil” and remain an “all good God.”

Love and prayers,

 

[jkiernan56]

•I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
•Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
•Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

I’m in agreement with you that one can take these verses and say they need context.

I also would agree to dismiss them entirely based on the fact they are simply men speaking here who are merely striving to understand their world and credit a God for the mishaps or fortunes in their lives.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. James 1:13

An agnostic is “a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown or unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God”

Since you neither commit to saying God does exist or that God does not exist - but rather sit on the fence - you have no context to give meaning to anything.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. James 1:13

An agnostic is “a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown or unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God”

Since you neither commit to saying God does exist or that God does not exist - but rather sit on the fence - you have no context to give meaning to anything.

I gave you the bible verses to address.
You did not address them.
My inability to believe does not preclude me from asking a believer to explain this.
I’ll take your inability to address this as evidence that it can not be addressed.