Why is God so mean?

[Charlemagne_II]

Oreoracle

You know it’s ridiculous to say that I can will myself to love another (especially when that other is an oppressive tyrant).

How can he be an oppresive tyrant if He doesn’t exist?

*And again, the Wager presents a false dichotomy. The choices are not limited to “Catholic god” or “no Catholic god”. There are other theoretical gods and possibilities to be calculated. There are thousands of choices, not two. *

Pshaw! Take your centipede of gods and begone with you! :knight2: :knight2: :knight2:

 

[PJM]

=Oreoracle;5345155]Yes Charlemagne, but Catholics believe this mysterious “other” must be the Catholic god. I have faith that there’s something more. However, I am not arrogant enough to say that I know what this “something more” is. In fact (and I think One would agree), this “something more” can more accurately be described from our relative perspective as “something less”.

***Interesting theory

Are you implying that that may be more than One Great God [putting aside for the moment the Trinity]?

Would these gods be partners or comperitors? Who decides who Creates what? How is it determined who does what? Is it like a franchise?

Why would there have to be “something more?” If this “Creater God” [assuming that such exist] Created [to make out of nothing] the Universe that has "millions of Galaxies and Billions of stars that don’t seem to get in each others way; and then for “His” masterpiece, He Creates humanity; part Matter and Part Spirit. {Mind, Intellect and Freewill.]

If this force, this THING, this person that I call “My God can” and did all this why would their be a need for “another” other god(s)?

Love and prayers friend,***

 

[Detales]

Salt, Charlie, salt. Even large Kosher grains of it. And a more reasonable answer, more fitting your ability.

 

[Detales]

PJM, Shame! Answer the Oreo’s theory on its own terms. You are worthy of more than a straw man argument.

 

[alacoque]

Thank you for your kind words. You and I are on the same page. Our God who is so completely OTHER wants to have a Personal relationship with each of us - and is intensely in Love with each of us. God (the 2nd Person of the Trinity) joined Himself to a Human Nature and is now visible in a Human Being - Christ. We no longer have to wonder what God looks like by inferring it from what He created - the stars, mountain tops, beautiful meadows with flowers, running streams of water. We now can see God in a Human Person - Christ. God so wants to have a relationship with each of us - that He became a Human Being. This God who is so OTHER is now one of us. “The WORD became Flesh”. Christ invites us to have the same relationship with His Father as adopted sons and daughters. His Father is now Our Father. And that kind of relationship is so opposite the OTHER aspect of God mentioned earlier. Our God who is so OTHER is also so very close and Personal.

hear! hear! (and…wow!!!) What a comfort this knowledge is to all of us. And the ‘personal-ness’ of the relationship makes ALL the difference. God bless you!!

 

[jkiernan56]

So if someone puts a gun to your head and says “Love me or die.” you could do it without any problem? Interestingly, this guy with a gun sounds less evil than your God–at least he’s not threatening eternal punishment.

I am with you on this one Oreoacle. I know I used to be in a place where I could not “will myself” to love. It was only after God broke through and showed me His personal love for me that I was able to begin to make baby steps and stop being so hard on myself and others. And trust me, I know I have a long way to go in growing in Love. It is not something that happens overnight or in an instance because one just tries to “will it”.

Christ said it very clearly - “to whom has been loved much, the same loves much”. If one cannot will oneself to love - then a person should ask God for the Grace to love … because everything is Grace.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jkiernan

*It is not something that happens overnight or in an instance because one just tries to “will it”. *

Oh yes, I agree with that. Common sense, isn’t it? We don’t love a person just by knowing that he exists. If we limit ourselves to reading Pascal’s Wager only and not the rest of his work, we could not know that Pascal elsewhere argues only that the wager opens the door to God. It does not of its own accord make us love Him. Indeed, that love must grow in us. As Pascal said: “The knowledge of God is very far from the love of Him.” (Pensees) Open the door to God and invite Him in. God cannot enter on His own accord. The door of our hearts is locked from the inside. Christ can call out, but if we don’t open the door, how can we learn to love Him?

 

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan

*It is not something that happens overnight or in an instance because one just tries to “will it”. *

Oh yes, I agree with that. Common sense, isn’t it? We don’t love a person just by knowing that he exists. If we limit ourselves to reading Pascal’s Wager only and not the rest of his work, we could not know that Pascal elsewhere argues only that the wager opens the door to God. It does not of its own accord make us love Him. Indeed, that love must grow in us. As Pascal said: “The knowledge of God is very far from the love of Him.” (Pensees) Open the door to God and invite Him in. God cannot enter on His own accord. The door of our hearts is locked from the inside. Christ can call out, but if we don’t open the door, how can we learn to love Him?

Common sense isn’t so common is it?
Have you ever read Frank Sheed “Theology for Beginners”?
Mr. Sheed speaks about the relationship between knowing and loving that you touch on.
I found it very uplifting. If a oerson already loves God, then every new thing they learn about God should be another reason for loving Him. It is my experience that knowing God is intimately linked to loving God. I wonder in what context Pascal made the statement that you quoted: "As Pascal said: “The knowledge of God is very far from the love of Him.”

By the way, which Saint are you very fond of? Why are you very fond of them? I definitely sense your thirst and hunger for God. I’d really love to learn more about you and the story of how God has touched you. I hope asking you that is not imposing on you.

 

[One]

So, One, if your belief system includes mine, then you must incorporate all the doctrines and morality of my belief system. Right?

No, that’s not really the case.

An oak tree transcends and includes the acorn that produced it, but the oak tree now looks nothing like the acorn.

(Try not to be so rational, okay?)

True, mine doesn’t include yours.

Yes, sir. I sensed that from the beginning.

Your response to “Religion” is “none.” How does nothing encompass anything and everything? Now that’s a conundrum!

Perhaps I was pressed for time? Perhaps I was trying to be deliberately evasive. Perhaps I’d like to honor and respect ALL beliefs, not just one. Maybe I don’t like labels, or being pigeonholed. Or having people make broad assumptions about my character, nature, and beliefs just because I wear a certain insignia. (Speaking of Hitler (as many here have), the branding of Jews with numbered tattoos certainly put them in a tight box, didn’t it? Black and white, Jew or German, Catholic or Buddhist… on and on and on, and it is exactly that kind of characterization that has caused so much suffering and oppression in the world.) No thanks.

As for the question you’ve raised, believe it or not, the paradox has been resolved, and is available for all who have the eyes to see. It was resolved by people far more intelligent, aware, and articulate than I. In fact, all of your Christian doctrine points in this same direction and supports the paradox entirely, but you don’t seem to understand what is being said.

 

[Detales]

Amen, One. Beaucoup true about the paradox.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jkiernan

*Common sense isn’t so common is it? *

It used to be more common, I think. Some of us still have some left.

Have you ever read Frank Sheed “Theology for Beginners”?

No, I’ve read some of his other work, but long ago.

• "As Pascal said: “The knowledge of God is very far from the love of Him.” *

I think he means that we can know God in our heads, but in our hearts it takes a while to be possessed by Him. I agree. It’s taken me forever, and I still don’t feel quite “there.” Now and then I hear a voice behind me speaking my name, but I’m approaching the age when that might be expected.

I don’t have a favorite saint, though many have inspired me. Damien of Molokai, to be canonized in October, really impressed me. I think Jacques Maritian was the most influential person in my life (we corresponded for a few years when I was still very young). He was a kind and saintly man, though his writings were quite a struggle. Chesterton too is my idea of a saint. Bishop Sheen is now a candidate for sainthood, and I like him, even with his faults.

Bishop Leroy T. Matthiesen, still living, has been a comfort to me in my later years. I don’t agree with *all *his positions, but he is truly humane and heroic. I plan to write a short piece on him eventually for our Serra Club newsletter.

The story of how God has touched me? I would have to think long and hard about that. I left the Church for about 25 years, but found my way back with some help from Mozart and my ninth grade teacher, a Sister of Mercy.

My life is certainly not worth a book. Not even a chapter.

Thanks for your interest.

I’ll turn the questions back on you, if you like.

 

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan

*Common sense isn’t so common is it? *

It used to be more common, I think. Some of us still have some left.

Have you ever read Frank Sheed “Theology for Beginners”?

No, I’ve read some of his other work, but long ago.

• "As Pascal said: “The knowledge of God is very far from the love of Him.” *

I think he means that we can know God in our heads, but in our hearts it takes a while to be possessed by Him. I agree. It’s taken me forever, and I still don’t feel quite “there.” Now and then I hear a voice behind me speaking my name, but I’m approaching the age when that might be expected.

I don’t have a favorite saint, though many have inspired me. Damien of Molokai, to be canonized in October, really impressed me. I think Jacques Maritian was the most influential person in my life (we corresponded for a few years when I was still very young). He was a kind and saintly man, though his writings were quite a struggle. Chesterton too is my idea of a saint. Bishop Sheen is now a candidate for sainthood, and I like him, even with his faults.

Bishop Leroy T. Matthiesen, still living, has been a comfort to me in my later years. I don’t agree with *all *his positions, but he is truly humane and heroic. I plan to write a short piece on him eventually for our Serra Club newsletter.

The story of how God has touched me? I would have to think long and hard about that. I left the Church for about 25 years, but found my way back with some help from Mozart and my ninth grade teacher, a Sister of Mercy.

My life is certainly not worth a book. Not even a chapter.

Thanks for your interest.

I’ll turn the questions back on you, if you like.

Please don’t minimize your own story and it’s worth. It is very precious to God and I also highly esteem your journey (and each person’s) to God. One thing I learned from the very powerful experience of God’s Grace was that each one of us is a “word” spoken by God.

We say that Scripture is the breath of God speaking and communicating His truth to us in some particular way through human instruments . What I intimately knew in my experience of Grace was that each one of us is a “thought” of God, spoken by God, brought into existence by His will. We (I) should not exist. We only exist because God will’s each one of us to exist. There is something about each one of us that is precious to God unique. unlike anyone else.

In relationship to Christ -

Christ is “THE WORD” who was always with God and is Himself God. This very WORD of God became a human being in Christ. He is all the Father IS … all that the Father KNOWS and LOVES … this WORD (who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity) became a human being. You and I are also “words” of God … directly willed by God … spoken by God … and brought into being by His sheer thought and will. You and I do not have to exist. Only THE WORD who has always existed has to exist … He is the Eternal Begotten Son of the Father. “He who has seen me has seen the Father.”

I know you (and each person) is a “word” of God whom God has “spoken” and is calling to Himself in a very special and unique way. God has no grandchildren is an expression I’ve heard. You are a gift of God the Father to the Son through creation You are a gift of the Son to the Father through His redemption. You are a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son through sanctification. And you and I are a gift to each other and to the whole Body of Christ.

I love Mary very much … I can only imagine what she must be like in person … if I was face to face with her … like the moon that reflects the sunlight of the Sun (Son) … the beauty we see in her is the beauty that we see in Christ …Christ who is the source of all beauty. If a person says they love Jesus, they have to love His Mother. She is almost the reflection of Jesus … just as if she was standing in front of a mirror and we could see the mirror … it would reflect Christ back. Of all human beings God could have created, it was Mary He chose to be the earthly Mother of His Divine Son. I’m sure God picked the very best for Himself (was even selfish about it … lol … just kidding).

I love Mother Teresa … she reminds me of my own mother …wrinkles, smile, twinkle in the eyes … kind … a heart that went out to the poor … I was much closer to my own mother … and not so much to my father.

I hold Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton very dear in my heart … there is a story behind that … maybe sometime I could share it with you.

There are many other Saints I love … St. Bernadette, St. John Bosco …

I want to learn alot more about St. Alphonsus Liguori and St. Francis de Sales.

I tend to avoid Saints such as St. John Vianney … and his bodily mortifications and austerity … I think its because I’m Irish … and enjoy having fun … things that St. John told others to stay away from … dancing, music … etc …

Sometime I really would appreciate and enjoy hearing more about how the Lord “wooed” you back to the Church.

 

[4Horsemen]

No, that’s not really the case.

An oak tree transcends and includes the acorn that produced it, but the oak tree now looks nothing like the acorn.

(Try not to be so rational, okay?)

Yes, sir. I sensed that from the beginning.

Perhaps I was pressed for time? Perhaps I was trying to be deliberately evasive. Perhaps I’d like to honor and respect ALL beliefs, not just one. Maybe I don’t like labels, or being pigeonholed. Or having people make broad assumptions about my character, nature, and beliefs just because I wear a certain insignia. (Speaking of Hitler (as many here have), the branding of Jews with numbered tattoos certainly put them in a tight box, didn’t it? Black and white, Jew or German, Catholic or Buddhist… on and on and on, and it is exactly that kind of characterization that has caused so much suffering and oppression in the world.) No thanks.

As for the question you’ve raised, believe it or not, the paradox has been resolved, and is available for all who have the eyes to see. It was resolved by people far more intelligent, aware, and articulate than I. In fact, all of your Christian doctrine points in this same direction and supports the paradox entirely, but you don’t seem to understand what is being said.

So your “religion”, or lack thereof, transcends all known faiths from what I ascertain. It’s seems like my idea in college that my belief system was a higher morality on a higher plane than the ordinary plebians. People don’t generally like to be categorized (lol now there’s a categorization, if I must say so myself!), but it’s what we do.

I have to admit that I don’t understand how “all” of my Christian doctrine “points in this same direction and supports the paradox entirely.” So what you are saying is that all religious beliefs are interchangeable, in other words, one is no more the truth than another. Those who understand that, though, have reached Nirvana, so to speak.

definition: (often initial capital letter) Pali, nibbana. Buddhism. freedom from the endless cycle of personal reincarnations, with their consequent suffering, as a result of the extinction of individual passion, hatred, and delusion: attained by the Arhat as his goal but postponed by the Bodhisattva.

BTW, do you believe in reincarnation?
You mentioned that religion has “caused so much suffering in the world.” So did lack of or misunderstanding of religion. Besides the examples of Hitler and Stalin, no one seems to mention the fierce cannabalistic tribal people of the world who sacrificed their children to false gods. It is Christianity that brought reason and redemption and charity into the primitive societies. Have you heard of Juan Diego’s tilma and how Our Lady of Guadelupe had her image imprinted on the rough fibers which should have disintegrated a long time ago? She came to the Americas to end human sacrifice appearing as a pregnant young Indian. The tilma is preserved in a vacuum sealed glass container.

sancta.org/juandiego.html

My time is limited as well, so many of my posts are done hurriedly, which is a source of irritation to me, but family comes first.

Also, I’m just wondering why you categorized me as “sir”?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jkiernan

Sharing bios is probably not what the moderator would approve in this thread. I found your reflections very interesting and am willing to pursue them by e-mail if you like.

God bless,

Charlie

 

[Detales]

Charlie, I get from your engaging post #310 that you might be one of the Ancients of Days on here?

I was particularly interested in that you had actual communication with Jaques Maritian. I looked him up and read most of the extensive article I found on his work. What a colorful educatuon and life he had! Having known a philosopher/metaphysician myself, I would imagine that those comuniques are precious in your life. I would wish such treasures on everyone capable of appreciating them.

Though he was not specifically my Mentor, I found that some of the ideas treated by Maritian were similar in nature to the one author who laid our in scholarly terms his premises and arguments in the matter of non-duality. I thought, as I read short sentences from Maritian, “I would love to be a fly on the wall if these two ever met!” such possibilities, though fanciful, have always intruiged me.

In any case, It was moving to read your words, as they show a long trail of deep considerations. I may not agree with some of your conclusions, but, truly, one has to respect the sincerity, energy, and devotion that goes into a life such as yours.

As for “coming back” under the infulence of a Sister of Mercy and Mozart, I had to smile. First, I was taught for many years by the dear sisters, theirs being a group from Caric on Sur, Eire. Yes, we even got to learn Ogham script and sang the Irish National Athem. I still remember the opening bar or so, lol! Some of the sisters were brilliant, others, seemed to me sad cses of religious entrapment. But we are all where we are, and whose to judge, eh?

Second, Mozart makes everyone smile. I do not know how he influenced you in particular, but my Mentor was considered by many European critics to be in musicologically in the company of the big three. I used to watch in amazement as he composed spontaneously at the keyboards and lifted us to heavenly realms. He sponsored a Mozart scholar to speak to us at one of his own lecture series, and it was easy then to see why Mozart could take someone heavanward, though I had felt that simply form hearing and loving his music since childhood. My grandmother, a fine pianist, played him every chance she got, and I will never forget a Master Class I saw with Pablo Cassales that had me in tears. He finished a piece he played in that phenomenal way of his, paused, with this indescribable look in his eyes, and said “I always begin and end with Mozart.” It was crystal clear why.

Anyway, I wanted to pause in the midst of all this fracas, and like a warrior of those times when such respect was recognized as worthy, to give you a nod of acknowledgement for those things we have as the same.

As he said so often I hear my Mentor saying, “Man is a Song” I have no doubt that when you do hear your name called that last time, your story will be one “Given to Praise.”

 

[4Horsemen]

Re the wonderful quote from On Spiritual Knowledge and Discrimination

: It is exactly why my Mentor often said “View *out from *the Star, not up to it!” It would be fascinating to do a read trade with St. Diadochos book and Adi Sankara’s The Crown Jewel of Discrimination. Trade or not, I will try to find St D’s work.

I will make a note of Adi Sankara since I like to have a basic understanding of the varieties of religious experiences. I read a book by that title by William James a while back. Can’t say I remember a whole lot.

psychwww.com/psyrelig/james/toc.htm

I came to see how the Church was, though in an occluded form, in agreement with the much clearer, pristine Teaching I had discovered though my dissatisfaction with what I then saw as the unnecessary convolutions of Church teaching.

Regards,
4

 

[4Horsemen]

“When an individual breaks free, at first the light is blinding and he is unable to see, but after a time he sees, for the first time, the real world. Ideas, being eternal, and unchangeable, are outside space and time.” ~~4 How true!

“…union with God–our whole purpose in life” ~~4 Also true, about as well as most can say it in English.

“competent Teacher, Guide, or Friend is invaluable.” ~~4 Yes, prayed for arduously and recieved.

WOW! We agree!

Now tell me: What includes both the cave and the real world, without distinction? (Answers “How does nothing encompass anything and everything? Now that’s a conundrum!,” at least from this perspective.)

---

I had a spiritual director for awhile, but it didn’t last long. I believe I could have advanced more in the spiritual life had I continued with one–few met my requirements. Maybe I should have checked with God on the subject of requirements at that time. Anyhow, the Lord led me to spiritual reading of which I did plenty. Now I’m reading Aquinas.

So “what includes both the cave and the real world, without distinction”, you ask? Beats me! Is “nothing”-ness your answer? I say, forget the cave. It’s doomed.

 

[Oreoracle]

***Interesting theory

Are you implying that that may be more than One Great God [putting aside for the moment the Trinity]?

Would these gods be partners or comperitors? Who decides who Creates what? How is it determined who does what? Is it like a franchise?

Why would there have to be “something more?” If this “Creater God” [assuming that such exist] Created [to make out of nothing] the Universe that has "millions of Galaxies and Billions of stars that don’t seem to get in each others way; and then for “His” masterpiece, He Creates humanity; part Matter and Part Spirit. {Mind, Intellect and Freewill.]

If this force, this THING, this person that I call “My God can” and did all this why would their be a need for “another” other god(s)?

Love and prayers friend,***

What makes you think I was speaking of a god? We view the world and imagine that we interact with others, much like “you” and “I” posting right now. I’m beginning to believe, however, that all of our consciousnesses stem from the same no-thing.

When you think of yourself, what comes to mind? Are you your body, your beliefs, your values, your experiences, your soul? Any answer you provide is a description of something perceived by your consciousness. What is it that is examining your body, beliefs, or soul? Any answer you provide cannot be “you” as you are what’s viewing what you claim to be yourself to begin with!

I’m sorry that this is brief, but I don’t believe what constitutes “us” (God included) can be described. “I” cannot be differentiated from what’s around me; I contain the essence of the whole. All beings–and yes, even God–are essentially inseparable from the collective pool of Consciousness. We are all waves in the same pond.

As you can see, this doesn’t lead to a “God and I” perspective, but rather an “I-I” or an “I am God” perspective.

 

[Detales]

Hi 4,

The two books of James’ that come to mind are *The Varieties of Religious Experience *and Essays on Religion and Morality. I didn’t read the latter, but to me his comments in the former on the “two ways of accepting the Universe,” as well as some others, show that his analysis doesn’t include the one kind of insight I feel to be accurate and transformative in the particular way I’ve been speaking of, similarly to One. Somewhere I believe you got a wire crossed with James and Shankaracharia. James does not even mention Sankara in that book by at least my search on the link you courteously provided.

I appreciate your deliniaton of the attribution of singularity to the church. Clearly, you are using that attribution as a lens to evaluate the statements of those here who do not agree with you. I fear they cannot, as it is the very nature of the lens you use and claim to be perfect that we, or at least I, question. For my part I do not do this without good experiential cause. And 4, I do understand your position in claiming the singularity of your lens, as I did exactly the same. If it is of passing interest to you, someone did ask me what was the extent of my exposure to the Catholic Church. That answer may be found as post #826 here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5346881#post5346881 (Sorry, I don’t know that cute trick whereby one can simplify a link. Help?)

God as IS cannot leave us orphan any more than God can leave Himself orphan. That applies without qualification over all those catagories of who’s where relative to the Church. And “To whom much has been given, much will be expected.” is why I feel I must speak out at times, by force of gratitude. Same applies to your later comment and its foundaton about proclaiming the good news.

Thank you for your examplarship of circularity. What, pray, is the unmoving Center of that beginingless and unending circle you came around to the start of? (insert synonym for God) is “at once the Center and Circumference of Being.” I have absolutely no doubt about your sincerity or devotion here. I am, however, acutely and in a practical way aware of the shenanigans of mortal mind in veiling Wholeness by division in every sense. If there is meanness relative to his thread topic, there, in mortal mind, is where it originates.

Again, thank you for supplying John 3:16 and the others, each being further examples of what might be said upon realizing, or estimating the significance of such a grace. As for the rest, I will not converse about those until there is a greater surity we are nearer each other in undrstanding. My reverence and awe before that dynamic will not allow it.

Please remember we are not ideological opponents here and this is not on my part an argument. It is an explication of how and what I experience. Similarly to One, my Source material is neither from faith nor from books. Though by no means the equal of my Mentor, I will certainly use those, as did he, to point to ideas that are helpful in raising eyelids or pointing to the cave enterance, but usually minds are too busy with self verifcation and blame to notice. That is all well and good and fuel for later, for when the match/Match is struck.

Thank you 4, for your attention.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

 

[Detales]

“…all of our consciousnesses stem from the same no-thing.” I would say “awarenesses stem,” but Wow! Oreo! Blessings on you. I do admire your self-labeling as an “agnostic theist.” It is in fact a very functional and fruitful stance. You are joyfully, I would say, free from the chemicalized attachments most religonists have to their mentations.

If I may be so bold, that last post from which that statement is lifted makes me wish I could hand you a book through the screen. I’m convinced that you you could make profit of it as few could. Maybe one in 100K or more? Few, anyway. It is The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object by Franklin Merrell-Wolff. It is a job to read, but I don’t think that if you start you will easily put it down. And you might even absorb it more easily than I did.

My guess is that you are just clever enough to “get” F. M-W. It would be a hoot to be able to talk with someone who understands his insight, even if they don’t agree.

Q’plah, Oreo!