Why is God so silent?

[Charlemagne_III]

I left Christianity because the all-loving, etc., etc., simply does not, nor has it ever matched up withe evidence.I still believe in God, I’m just not sure He even knows if we’re here and if He does has no control over our daily lives or events.

There is, it seems to me, even less evidence that your God exists than ours.

At least ours showed up on the cross to prove he knows we’re here.

Yours apparently shows up nowhere. So why do you believe in him with no evidence, yet not believe in ours with considerable evidence from eye witnesses that he performed miracles and taught profound truths?

These truths are still being taught and miracles are still happening.

If you don’t believe, it’s because you don’t want to believe?

 

[Frankenfurter]

When people have heated debates as to whether something is moral or not, why couldn’t God just show up?

Well, suppose he did. The first thing that would happen is that we would demand that he always shows up - not just sometimes. That would mean that you would never have to make a moral decision on your own. That kind of world is apparently not what God wants. He wants us to have a part in creation and learn to grow into moral creatures who act out of love, not adherence to rules.

St. Bernard describes the stages of this Love. First we love others for what they do for us. Next we love others for their own sake. Then we love God for what he can do for us. Then we learn to love God for his own sake. Finally, that state achieved by the saints, we love others for God’s sake.

It seems to me that there would be now way to achieve this last state if God intervened as you describe.

Peace

 

[oldcelt]

There is, it seems to me, even less evidence that your God exists than ours.

At least ours showed up on the cross to prove he knows we’re here.

Yours apparently shows up nowhere. So why do you believe in him with no evidence, yet not believe in ours with considerable evidence from eye witnesses that he performed miracles and taught profound truths?

These truths are still being taught and miracles are still happening.

If you don’t believe, it’s because you don’t want to believe?

Jesus was not the figure in all this who prompted my decision. His truths are universal (benevolent Judaism) and he seems to have been a genuinely loving person. As I have said many times before, it is the Christian version of the Father who troubles me.

So far as recent miracles, they are very rare and that is according to the Church. What is common today is people declaring miracles.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So far as recent miracles, they are very rare and that is according to the Church. What is common today is people declaring miracles.

Miracles have always been very rare. But they do happen.

Yes, there are fraudulent miracles. So? We don’t deny real miracles because of fraudulent ones.

 

[manualman]

The OP seems to wish for a sort of divine “Ask Geeves” who would appear at our desire and give the answers and point the way.

But if God behaved that way, would you even be able to choose Him out of love, or would awe and fear inevitably be part of the equation? There’s a certain coercion inherent to being seen when you’re omnipotent.

Not remotely in the same league, but as I understand it, Bill Gates didn’t marry until AFTER he was a billionaire. How do you date when you are a billionaire? He seems to have pulled it off, but I suspect it’s rare. The simple fact of being a billionaire alters the early relationship when two people meet and begin to get to know each other. It’s profoundly in the way of genuine love developing.

I suspect this is why God is subtle. As He said to the (dead) rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, He have revealed enough for those who will be open to receiving Him. For those who reject Him, no amount of revelation will be enough.

(To be clear, only HE knows who truly has rejected or embraced Him. The above isn’t pointed at anybody here).

 

[tonyrey]

One at a time in the OT, masses for about three years then nobody for 2000 years as I read it.

You read it too literally.

 

[tonyrey]

The OP seems to wish for a sort of divine “Ask Geeves” who would appear at our desire and give the answers and point the way.

But if God behaved that way, would you even be able to choose Him out of love, or would awe and fear inevitably be part of the equation? There’s a certain coercion inherent to being seen when you’re omnipotent.

Not remotely in the same league, but as I understand it, Bill Gates didn’t marry until AFTER he was a billionaire. How do you date when you are a billionaire? He seems to have pulled it off, but I suspect it’s rare. The simple fact of being a billionaire alters the early relationship when two people meet and begin to get to know each other. It’s profoundly in the way of genuine love developing.

I suspect this is why God is subtle. As He said to the (dead) rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, He have revealed enough for those who will be open to receiving Him. For those who reject Him, no amount of revelation will be enough.

(To be clear, only HE knows who truly has rejected or embraced Him. The above isn’t pointed at anybody here).

Independence implies the power to choose what to believe and how to live.

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus was not the figure in all this who prompted my decision. His truths are universal (benevolent Judaism) and he seems to have been a genuinely loving person.

How did Jesus discover universal truths?

As I have said many times before, it is the Christian version of the Father who troubles me.

There are many Christian versions of the Father. Which troubles you?

So far as recent miracles, they are very rare and that is according to the Church. What is common today is people declaring miracles.

The Church prudently imposes stringent criteria which exclude many cases of inexplicable survival and recovery as the result of prayer.

 

[tonyrey]

Well, suppose he did. The first thing that would happen is that we would demand that he always shows up - not just sometimes. That would mean that you would never have to make a moral decision on your own. That kind of world is apparently not what God wants. He wants us to have a part in creation and learn to grow into moral creatures who act out of love, not adherence to rules.

St. Bernard describes the stages of this Love. First we love others for what they do for us. Next we love others for their own sake. Then we love God for what he can do for us. Then we learn to love God for his own sake. Finally, that state achieved by the saints, we love others for God’s sake.

It seems to me that there would be no way to achieve this last state if God intervened as you describe.

Peace

Impeccable and irrefutable logic!

 

[tonyrey]

I left Christianity because the all-loving, etc., etc., simply does not, nor has it ever matched up withe evidence.I still believe in God, I’m just not sure He even knows if we’re here and if He does has no control over our daily lives or events.

If God had control over our daily lives we wouldn’t be free to choose what to believe and how to live.

You will know that the divine is so great and of such a nature that it sees and hears everything at once, is present everywhere, and is concerned with everything.

• Socrates

 

[tonyrey]

I think that God is not so much concerned with our actions, but with our attitudes. Jesus did not come to earth and say “X is wrong”, “Y is wrong” and “Z is okay.”. He very thoroughly taught that we need to desire maturity, that we need to engage in selfless love, that we need to be transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was not concerned with “morality”. He was concerned with us being holy and good.

In the case you discuss, an abortion (or a life-saving procedure that causes the child’s death, which is the same thing) is sometimes permissible, if we talk in terms of “morality”. But what would a woman transformed by God’s love do? Maybe she would allow herself and her baby to die, all the while praying for a miracle. Maybe she would have the abortion, out of love for those who love her and a desire to care for her other children.

We can’t say. Some things (adultery, rape) are never moral, but many things are a matter of prudential judgment. Christianity teaches that, in becoming like Jesus, our vision is radically changed.

You are asking for a God that, when we ask, gives us a fish. We have much more than that: a God who teaches us how to fish for ourselves.

A delightful parting shot!

 

[tonyrey]

I’m a 17 year old boy so I’m pretty sure I am already in the stage where I start setting my beliefs and stances, and that includes doubts and uncertainties. I am not saying that my faith is shrinking, but I am just questioning things in a sort of “yes, i agree, but could you explain” way. Please understand where I’m coming from.

Good for you!

"The life which is unexamined is not worth living." - Socrates

A religion is not worth having unless you make it your own…

 

[openmind77]

When people have heated debates as to whether something is moral or not, why couldn’t God just show up? I know that we have the Bible, but the Bible has so many grey areas to the point that there are so many different interpretations and circumstances in which the person needs counseling and the Bible is somewhat unclear about things. For example, in the case of dangerous pregnancy, there are some incidents in which either the mother or the child can live while the other would die, depending on whether the mother would opt for abortion or not. I’d consider this a grey area because the Bible says that killing is wrong. However, given this circumstance, one or the other would have to be killed inevitably. I mean, yes the church’s teaching says it is excusable, but then again, how do we know that this interpretation of God’s law is correct?

I’m a 17 year old boy so I’m pretty sure I am already in the stage where I start setting my beliefs and stances, and that includes doubts and uncertainties. I am not saying that my faith is shrinking, but I am just questioning things in a sort of “yes, i agree, but could you explain” way. Please understand where I’m coming from.

God does reveal himself and his teachings every few thousand years through someone like Jesus. You can get God’s opinion on most things by reading the teachings of such Sons of God - like the Sermon on the Mount. However, God does not interfere and give his opinion on every single grey area, because that would interfere with human free will and our ability to choose for ourselves.

However, there are so many questions nowsdays (as the one you point out), that I am sure God will send another Teacher to clarify answers to many such questions soon. This will happen in the form of the Return of Christ - this event will I believe will happen very soon (maybe 2-3 years).

 

[oldcelt]

Miracles have always been very rare. But they do happen.

Yes, there are fraudulent miracles. So? We don’t deny real miracles because of fraudulent ones.

Having read about quite few “miracles,” I have yet to see any that cannot be explained. This, unfortunately, is very much like UFOs, aliens, ghosts, creatures and so on. When placed under a discerning eye they vanish. I won’t say that they all do, because I don’t know everything that awaits or I have yet to see.

Let me say this…the record is not good.

God has left us on our own in my belief. The truths taught by Jesus could have been discovered by any human with the courage to speak of them in public, and in defiance of the religious and secular powers of his time.

 

[oldcelt]

God does reveal himself and his teachings every few thousand years through someone like Jesus. You can get God’s opinion on most things by reading the teachings of such Sons of God - like the Sermon on the Mount. However, God does not interfere and give his opinion on every single grey area, because that would interfere with human free will and our ability to choose for ourselves.

However, there are so many questions nowsdays (as the one you point out), that I am sure God will send another Teacher to clarify answers to many such questions soon. This will happen in the form of the Return of Christ - this event will I believe will happen very soon (maybe 2-3 years).

I am not certain that these are the teachings of God. When compared with writings like the books of the Old Testament, I lean strongly toward these prophets being highly intelligent and courageous people who discovered universal truths through study, much as any reputable scientist does today.

I’m reminded of U. S. Declaration of Independence…We hold these truths to be self-evident,… None of the founders were exceptional in any ways except possibly intellect and courage. Many were voracious readers of other men, Hobbes and Locke come to mind along with Jesus and they instituted a system of government that was unseen prior to them. Yet we deified none of them, though some recent political groups and activists come dangerously close.

 

[oldcelt]

Originally Posted by ILoveTheLordGod View Post
I’m a 17 year old boy so I’m pretty sure I am already in the stage where I start setting my beliefs and stances, and that includes doubts and uncertainties. I am not saying that my faith is shrinking, but I am just questioning things in a sort of “yes, i agree, but could you explain” way. Please understand where I’m coming from.

As Tonyrey said, “Good for you.”

Enjoy the quest and never let anyone pressure you into something that you don’t truly believe.

John

 

[vsedriver]

I left Christianity because the all-loving, etc., etc., simply does not, nor has it ever matched up withe evidence.I still believe in God, I’m just not sure He even knows if we’re here and if He does has no control over our daily lives or events.

what evidence would satisfy you? A personal message?

He knows. He sent his son to us.

Why would he control your daily life? If God controlled your life you would not be an adopted son but just another beast of the field.

God speaks to those who have an open heart, on his terms, not on ours.

 

[vsedriver]

One at a time in the OT, masses for about three years then nobody for 2000 years as I read it.

Nobody? wasn’t his son enough? Isn’t the Holy Spirit enough? Yes the Holy Spirit still interacts with us lowly humans.

 

[openmind77]

I am not certain that these are the teachings of God. When compared with writings like the books of the Old Testament, I lean strongly toward these prophets being highly intelligent and courageous people who discovered universal truths through study, much as any reputable scientist does today.

I’m reminded of U. S. Declaration of Independence…We hold these truths to be self-evident,… None of the founders were exceptional in any ways except possibly intellect and courage. Many were voracious readers of other men, Hobbes and Locke come to mind along with Jesus and they instituted a system of government that was unseen prior to them. Yet we deified none of them, though some recent political groups and activists come dangerously close.

I said the words of Jesus were the teachings of God - he is the only well known Son of God that I know of in the west.

I did not say anything about the Old Testament or any Prophets.

 

[vsedriver]

I am not certain that these are the teachings of God. When compared with writings like the books of the Old Testament, I lean strongly toward these prophets being highly intelligent and courageous people who discovered universal truths through study, much as any reputable scientist does today.
.

even those OT prophets say God spoke to them? And what on earth were they studying?

God spoke to the prophets and they did as he asked.