Why is infinite regression held to be impossible?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Qoeleth
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Q

Qoeleth

Guest
The creationist arguments and its variants rely on supposing that an infinite regression is impossible. I wonder, why precisely is such an infinite series held to be impossible.

If one places two mirrors facing each other, there is one mirror the image of the other, which contains its own image, which contains the image of the other, which contains its own image, et cetera ad infinitum.

If one divides 10 by 3, the answer is 3.3333333333333, etc. ad infinitum.

The value of pi, is held to be 3.14159, etc., etc.

If become aware that I think, I think that I think, and I think that I think that I think, etc. ad infinitum.

Are each of these not infinite regressions?

If the universe itself contains these infinite regressions, why should there not be an infinite regression of causes?
 
The creationist arguments and its variants rely on supposing that an infinite regression is impossible. I wonder, why precisely is such an infinite series held to be impossible.

If one places two mirrors facing each other, there is one mirror the image of the other, which contains its own image, which contains the image of the other, which contains its own image, et cetera ad infinitum.

If one divides 10 by 3, the answer is 3.3333333333333, etc. ad infinitum.

The value of pi, is held to be 3.14159, etc., etc.

If become aware that I think, I think that I think, and I think that I think that I think, etc. ad infinitum.

Are each of these not infinite regressions?

If the universe itself contains these infinite regressions, why should there not be an infinite regression of causes?
Can you explain what “infinite regression” means in reference with creationism? I have never heard of this.

thanks,
CEM :confused:
 
Can you explain what “infinite regression” means in reference with creationism? I have never heard of this.

thanks,
CEM :confused:
Sure. The idea that everything was caused by something, but that this series of causes can’t be infinite (i.e. that an infinite regression is not possible)- and thus there must be a First Cause (i.e. God).
 
Sure. The idea that everything was caused by something, but that this series of causes can’t be infinite (i.e. that an infinite regression is not possible)- and thus there must be a First Cause (i.e. God).
Ahhhhh! :newidea: I see now!

Thanks for that explanation.

That being said, then, it only makes sense that there has to be a beginning: God, our Creator.

Those examples of infinite regression are not based on solid matter, but rather images and non-corporeal matter. A mathematical equation is just a figure - not a reality. If you divide a solid matter you will never have an infinite result. Same with the mirror. There are only two solid materials - the mirrors. It is only the reflecting images that appear to go on in infinite regression. This is just a reflection within those two material objects. Not tangible.
 
Yep, all physical substance has a finite end in that once you cut down to the atomic level, and cut the atom in half, you lose the physical matter of the substance.
 
Infinite regression is impossible because infinity is non-physical. David Hilbert proved this.
 
Infinite regression is impossible because infinity is non-physical. David Hilbert proved this.
I suspect that your reference to Hilbert’s proof is as shallow as people’s citation of the incompleteness theorem as a defense for agnosticism.
 
The creationist arguments and its variants rely on supposing that an infinite regression is impossible. I wonder, why precisely is such an infinite series held to be impossible.

If one places two mirrors facing each other, there is one mirror the image of the other, which contains its own image, which contains the image of the other, which contains its own image, et cetera ad infinitum.

If one divides 10 by 3, the answer is 3.3333333333333, etc. ad infinitum.

The value of pi, is held to be 3.14159, etc., etc.

If become aware that I think, I think that I think, and I think that I think that I think, etc. ad infinitum.

Are each of these not infinite regressions?

If the universe itself contains these infinite regressions, why should there not be an infinite regression of causes?
There are some infinite series the traversal of which is not impossible – for instance, there is an infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1.

But I think the regress you’re referring to in arguments concerning efficient causation is a regress in which the series is hierarchical and each member stands in a transitivity relation with every other item. That kind of infinite regress is impossible because, among other things, even for it to begin requires the traversal of an actual infinite. Also, unless the first member in the series has the feature characterized by the relation, it can’t actually “pass on” that feature.
 
The creationist arguments and its variants rely on supposing that an infinite regression is impossible. I wonder, why precisely is such an infinite series held to be impossible.

If one places two mirrors facing each other, there is one mirror the image of the other, which contains its own image, which contains the image of the other, which contains its own image, et cetera ad infinitum.

If one divides 10 by 3, the answer is 3.3333333333333, etc. ad infinitum.

The value of pi, is held to be 3.14159, etc., etc.

If become aware that I think, I think that I think, and I think that I think that I think, etc. ad infinitum.

Are each of these not infinite regressions?

If the universe itself contains these infinite regressions, why should there not be an infinite regression of causes?
All these examples you give might be better described as “infinite progressions.”

You can (hypothetically) start at 0 and count backwards to negative-infinity. You can’t start at negative infinity and count upwards to 0.
 
All these examples you give might be better described as “infinite progressions.”

You can (hypothetically) start at 0 and count backwards to negative-infinity. You can’t start at negative infinity and count upwards to 0.
Well said. Infinite progressions make sense, because time can go on and on forever. However, infinite regressions as used in the case of a no first cause argument, don’t make sense, because if an infinite amount of time has elapsed, then everything that can happen HAS already happened (Fr Mitch Pacwa’s quote)!!! So why is it still happening?
 
Well said. Infinite progressions make sense, because time can go on and on forever. However, infinite regressions as used in the case of a no first cause argument, don’t make sense, because if an infinite amount of time has elapsed, then everything that can happen HAS already happened (Fr Mitch Pacwa’s quote)!!! So why is it still happening?
Aquinas disagrees with you and Pacwa in ST 1, P1, Q46, A2:

Objection 6. Further, if the world always was, the consequence is that infinite days preceded this present day. But it is impossible to pass through an infinite medium. Therefore we should never have arrived at this present day; which is manifestly false.

Reply to Objection 6. Passage is always understood as being from term to term. Whatever bygone day we choose, from it to the present day there is a finite number of days which can be passed through. The objection is founded on the idea that, given two extremes, there is an infinite number of mean terms.

“To say the universe is infinitely old is to say that it had no beginning–not a beginning that was infinitely long ago.” - Keith Parsons in J.P. Moreland and Kai Neilson, Does God Exist? The Debate between Theists and Atheists (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 1993), p. 187.
 
Aquinas disagrees with you and Pacwa in ST 1, P1, Q46, A2:

Objection 6. Further, if the world always was, the consequence is that infinite days preceded this present day. But it is impossible to pass through an infinite medium. Therefore we should never have arrived at this present day; which is manifestly false.

Reply to Objection 6. Passage is always understood as being from term to term. Whatever bygone day we choose, from it to the present day there is a finite number of days which can be passed through. The objection is founded on the idea that, given two extremes, there is an infinite number of mean terms.
**Whether St. Thomas Aquinas is ever Wrong?
**
Objection 1: It would seem the Angelic Doctor is never wrong, because I really like him.

Objection 2: Further, everything I’ve read by him so far is right.

Objection 3: Further, the Church says he’s a really cool guy.

On the Contrary:
St. Thomas Aquinas falsely claims that the argument of Objection 6 is not demonstrative in Article 2 of Question 46 when, in fact, it is demonstrative. He does this because he misunderstands an objection to his position that it cannot be demonstrated the world has a beginning in time. Instead, he maintains the clearly absurd notion that it is possible to have an infinite regress in time (an infinite past).

I Answer That: The original objection to St. Thomas’ position is “…if the world always was, the consequence is that infinite days preceded this present day. But it is impossible to pass through an infinite medium. Therefore we should never have arrived at this present day; which is manifestly false.” The Angelic Doctor answers “…passage is always understood as being from term to term. Whatever bygone day we choose, from it to the present day there is a finite number of days which can be passed through. The objection is founded on the idea that, given two extremes, there is an infinite number of mean terms.”

However, the objection is not founded on the idea that, given two extremes, there is an infinite number of mean terms. Rather, it is founded on the fact that to be in the present day means all days in the past have, well, passed. And even though it is indeed true that for any given day in an infinite past there is only a finite amount of time between it and the present, it is also true that there yet remains an infinite amount of time prior to any given day in an infinite past that must have passed before that day. This leads us to conclude that an infinite past is self-contradictory, because assuming the present day is here, and it is indeed here, means an infinite number of days have indeed passed, or rather an infinite amount of time has terminated. But an infinite amount of time by definition cannot terminate.

Further, the first extreme (the present day being the second extreme) is missing, so there can be no passage to the present in the first place. Why? Because present conditions depend on past conditions for their existence, and an infinite past would necessitate an infinite regression in efficient cause which Aquinas has properly demonstrated as nonsensical (ironically, by using the exact same logic underlying the objection to his position on the possible infinite nature of the past).

Further, time is the measure of the motion of something moved relative to the motion of something else moved. Thus, the speed of a car is measured relative to the rotation of the earth (miles per hour). If there was an infinite past, it would require infinite regression in things moved since time is their measure of motion relative to one another. Once again, this has been demonstrated by Aquinas to be nonsensical. In order to attain the present state of motion, there must be a First Mover which is unmoved. Therefore, time must not have an infinite past duration.

**Reply to Objection 1: ** I really like him too, but he’s wrong sometimes. More often than you would think, actually.

**Reply to Objection 2: ** But now you’ve read even further, and found him to be wrong on occasion.

Reply to Objection 3: Yes, but he’s not infallible, and his philosophy needs to be revised and excised of its mistakes.

😃 Ok, that’s not my own, I have quoted it from here, but it’s really well stated and I agree with it. -
anothertheologyblog.stblogs.com/
“To say the universe is infinitely old is to say that it had no beginning–not a beginning that was infinitely long ago.” - Keith Parsons in J.P. Moreland and Kai Neilson, Does God Exist? The Debate between Theists and Atheists (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 1993), p. 187.
Yet, time is the measure of change. The universe has been constantly changing. Therefore, if the universe had no beginning, and at the same time was constantly changing, then it means an infinite amount of time has elapsed.
 
Wesley:

I find this author’s reply very confusing.

His objection to Aquinas is really stated in only one sentence: “it is also true that there yet remains an infinite amount of time prior to any given day in an infinite past that must have passed before that day.”

Notice the bolded word. As Aquinas states in the text the author is objecting to, “[p]assage is always understood as being from term to term.” So, in claiming that an infinite amount of time must have “passed” before any given day is reached, the author is committed to saying there is an extreme infinitely before any given day. That’s obviously false though, if time regresses infinitely, there is no first extreme.

Oddly, he admits this only a few sentences later:

“the first extreme (the present day being the second extreme) is missing, so there can be no passage to the present in the first place.”

So, it seems he’s committed himself to a contradiction: in an infinite past, there is and there is not an extreme infinitely before any given day. The former claim is what his objection amounts to, and the latter is a statement of his I cited.
 
Wesley:

I find this author’s reply very confusing.

His objection to Aquinas is really stated in only one sentence: “it is also true that there yet remains an infinite amount of time prior to any given day in an infinite past that must have passed before that day.”

Notice the bolded word. As Aquinas states in the text the author is objecting to, “[p]assage is always understood as being from term to term.” So, in claiming that an infinite amount of time must have “passed” before any given day is reached, the author is committed to saying there is an extreme infinitely before any given day. That’s obviously false though, if time regresses infinitely, there is no first extreme.

Oddly, he admits this only a few sentences later:

“the first extreme (the present day being the second extreme) is missing, so there can be no passage to the present in the first place.”

So, it seems he’s committed himself to a contradiction: in an infinite past, there is and there is not an extreme infinitely before any given day. The former claim is what his objection amounts to, and the latter is a statement of his I cited.
Hi. I thought I’d chime in because you’re misreading Aquinas. He says that it’s logically possible for an “eternal” universe to exist (indeed, it is), where “eternal” means extending infinitely in time. Here he follows Aristotle. However, whereas Aristotle thought that such a universe couldn’t be explained (it just always existed), Aquinas rightly sees that the existence of the universe must still be explained. In this case, God would create an eternal universe. It makes no difference to Aquinas whether the universe is eternal or not: God is not a temporal cause in any event.

Also note that Thomas thought it was a matter of faith that the universe had a beginning (that is, that it was not eternal). However, it has recently been suggested that, thanks to the BVG (Borde, Vilenkin, and Guth) Theorem, universe must have a beginning. Of course, Aquinas couldn’t anticipate this advance in natural science.
 
The creationist arguments and its variants rely on supposing that an infinite regression is impossible. I wonder, why precisely is such an infinite series held to be impossible.

If one places two mirrors facing each other, there is one mirror the image of the other, which contains its own image, which contains the image of the other, which contains its own image, et cetera ad infinitum.

If one divides 10 by 3, the answer is 3.3333333333333, etc. ad infinitum.

The value of pi, is held to be 3.14159, etc., etc.

If become aware that I think, I think that I think, and I think that I think that I think, etc. ad infinitum.

Are each of these not infinite regressions?

If the universe itself contains these infinite regressions, why should there not be an infinite regression of causes?
Your argument of the mirror is a physical falsity and so it cannot be used a real proof. First you cannot have a mirror that has a 100% reflection and then you have also a field that decays.

The decimal representation of a periodic number is an artifact too. One third (1/3) of a triad is the unity and not an infinite regression. If you look at the number 0.9999999… that goes to infinite only people that do not know math will say that it is not 1.

Only your idea of the mirror could be consider an infinite regression for a philosophical point of view, the rest are not.
 
Hi. I thought I’d chime in because you’re misreading Aquinas. He says that it’s logically possible for an “eternal” universe to exist (indeed, it is), where “eternal” means extending infinitely in time. Here he follows Aristotle. However, whereas Aristotle thought that such a universe couldn’t be explained (it just always existed), Aquinas rightly sees that the existence of the universe must still be explained. In this case, God would create an eternal universe. It makes no difference to Aquinas whether the universe is eternal or not: God is not a temporal cause in any event.

Also note that Thomas thought it was a matter of faith that the universe had a beginning (that is, that it was not eternal). However, it has recently been suggested that, thanks to the BVG (Borde, Vilenkin, and Guth) Theorem, universe must have a beginning. Of course, Aquinas couldn’t anticipate this advance in natural science.
Sure, I agree with that, why do you think I was misreading Aquinas? My remarks don’t seem contrary to any of that. With the BVG Theorem, it’s controversial on what theory of time ‘beginning’ should be understood. If we work with B-theory, it’s a beginning like the first line of a segment is a beginning: doesn’t require a cause.
 
That is simply an appeal to ridicule.
No. I am saying that I will not accept the citation of a mathematical proof as evidence that a natural infinity can’t exist without an explanation on your part.
 
No. I am saying that I will not accept the citation of a mathematical proof as evidence that a natural infinity can’t exist without an explanation on your part.
I still think that your first statement was an appeal to ridicule while this one is a clear argument of what you are trying to say. With this post I see an intelligent comment on what you are trying to argue against. Whether an infinite physical regression is possible or not, I completely agree with you that a generic citation of a mathematical theorem is not sufficient to prove a general case in nature, more details need to be thrown into the pot to cook out an acceptable solution. I like the approach of the OP where he tries to falsify the statement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top