C
celtspirit
Guest
You seem to be saying that being excommunicated is worse than being in a state of mortal sin
- Status
J
jmcrae
Guest
- Jesus established a Church on earth - Matthew 16, John 17, and everything contained in all of the New Testament books from Acts to Revelation.
- Jesus appointed Peter and the Apostles to lead His Church - Matthew 16:18-19; John 21:15-19, Acts 1-2.
- When you trace forward in history from Peter until now, you arrive at Pope Francis. See Irenaeus Against the Heresies, the chapter on the reckoning of the Popes. Check any newspaper on any date that we’ve gotten a new Pope, for an updated reckoning of the Popes.
D
dshix
Guest
When Lost_Sheep said “one true church”, I believe what meant is “having the fullness of truth”, meaning that each church likely believes that they have access to the fullness of theological truth.
I would actually modify his statement, because there are in fact people who go to Church for reasons other than belief that it actually has the fullness of truth about God, and they instead go for social or other reasons.
Also, there are religions which make no claims about whether they have full theological truth.
The bottom line, though, is that the Catholic Church makes the claim to having the fullness of truth, and to being the one and only Church that Christ founded. There are very compelling arguments which the Church has for making these claims (which are out of the scope of this thread).
If the Catholic Church is right, then no other church or religion has the fullness of truth, and anyone away from the Church is therefore participating in a religion which is fundamentally incomplete.
I think this is why it is so important that Catholics and Protestants have dialogue, because it’s not sufficient to say “This Church is good for me, that one’s good for you.” The Truth is hugely more important than that.
A
anon98328916
Guest
The Catholic Church is the Only True Church
“Whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father Who is in Heaven. And I say to thee: Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:16-18)
JESUS GIVES HIS AUTHORITY TO THE APOSTLES
“And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to Me in Heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” (Matthew 28:18-20)
When did Jesus establish His Church?
Nearly two thousand years ago.
How many churches did Jesus establish?
Only one.
“Upon this Rock I will build My church.” (Matthew 16:18)
“There shall be one fold and one shepherd.” (John 10:16)
How long did Jesus plan His Church to last?
Until the End of the World.
“I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
How did Jesus establish His Church?
By giving His authority to the Apostles to rule and to teach.
“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:20)
Did the people have to obey the Apostles?
Yes, because they spoke with the authority of Jesus, and therefore, to disobey them would be a sin.
“He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)
Did the authority of the Apostles die with them?
No, they handed down their authority to others, since Jesus instituted His Church to last until the end of the World.
Some of the men who received authority from the Apostles: Matthias (Acts 1:22), Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:2), Timothy, Silas, Sylvanus, Titus, Luke, Mark (Acts 17:14; 2 Corinthians 1:19; 2 Timothy 14:11)
Which Church today has the same authority?
The Catholic Church, because it is the only Church established by Jesus Christ.
How do you know the Catholic Church is the only true church?
History shows that it is the only church that can be traced back to Christ.
Does everyone have to obey the Catholic Church?
Yes, because She alone has the authority of Jesus to rule and to teach.
To disobey the Catholic Church knowingly is just as much a sin as to disobey Jesus Christ or His Apostles.
Where did the Protestant churches come from?
They were established by men who had no authority to start churches of their own.
Who started the first Protestant church?
The first Protestant church was established less than 500 years ago in Germany by Martin Luther, in 1520.
Name the founders of other leading Protestant churches.
Name of church Founder When Where
Episcopalian King Henry VIII 1534 England
Presbyterian John Knox 1560 Scotland
Congregationalist Robert Browne 1583 England
Baptist John Smith 1600 Holland
Methodist John Wesley 1739 England
Adventist William Miller 1831 New York
Christian Scientist Mary Baker Eddy 1879 Massachusetts
P
Padres1969
Guest
Actually that list isn’t entirely accurate. The Episcopal Church for example was not founded in 1534. It was founded in 1789 by bishops and clergy representing the 9 diocese in the what was then the US.
A
anon98328916
Guest
E
Elena321
Guest
Thanks.
Intellectually,i probably think that the Catholic Church is more “true” then some other churches.
At the same time,i don’t see why it should be a sin for someone who was a Catholic to leave/join a different church if its genuinely done from ignorance/belief that the other church is the “truth”.
For example,i know a girl who was Catholic but now goes to a Evangelical type church.
I don’t really like this kind of Church but she obviously believes it so I don’t see why it would be sin?
Is it a sin just if the person leaves know that the Catholic Church is the truth or is it still a sin even if they are confused/ignorant?
If a sin for the confused/ignorant-that to me seems like controlling.
I also don’t “like” how it a sin to not go to Church on Sunday because doesn’t it then become about rules & regulations & make it like a chore to have to go to Church instead of a genuine desire to want to go?
Intellectually,i probably think that the Catholic Church is more “true” then some other churches.
At the same time,i don’t see why it should be a sin for someone who was a Catholic to leave/join a different church if its genuinely done from ignorance/belief that the other church is the “truth”.
For example,i know a girl who was Catholic but now goes to a Evangelical type church.
I don’t really like this kind of Church but she obviously believes it so I don’t see why it would be sin?
Is it a sin just if the person leaves know that the Catholic Church is the truth or is it still a sin even if they are confused/ignorant?
If a sin for the confused/ignorant-that to me seems like controlling.
I also don’t “like” how it a sin to not go to Church on Sunday because doesn’t it then become about rules & regulations & make it like a chore to have to go to Church instead of a genuine desire to want to go?
L
LethalMouse
Guest
From the Catechism:
True ignorance is a thing.
However, I once asked a question out loud: “If there is no reason to lie to me and I caught her why still lie?”
Me friend answered this well: “I do that all the time, it isn’t about lying to you but it makes us feel better about ourselves”
It is a dangerous game to claim ignorance in some cases, it is like a priest who runs off with a wife and becomes a protestant pastor.
IF and big IF he truly was mentally so confused and incapable of reasoning that he now believed his vows were wrong and the CC was wrong and his marriage was God given he would be safe.
HOWEVER, and a bigger HOWEVER IMO, if he deludes himself into believing he was ignorant when really he just wanted what he wanted and did not care to follow his vows out of pure selfishness and pride…well then his claims of ignorance and confusion even if mostly believed by himself are not a saving factor from this sin.
So truly being ignorant there really is not much sin to worry about.
Knowing ignorance reduces sin factor can make ignorance more fake and mean you are in sin.
And for instance in this case it sounds a lot like “I don’t wanna go to mass every sunday” would be a precursor to self delusion of supposed “ignorance”
To celebrate and worship the Lord’s day is in the ten commandments which is like regardless of denomination or lapse-ness most everyone is okay with the ten commandments…so How do you justify loop-holing out of those?
Mass is the lowest level given requirement for sacrifice and worship to God… Literally what is said of going to Mass being a huge burden is:
“WHOOAAA God, I like you and all but AN HOUR plus like maybe 30 mins drive time… whoa whoa, God this is too much to give you on your day of worship… Can’t I just like… you know… toss you a sign of the cross sometime after breakfast and call it a day?”
B
Bookcat
Guest
Something that is sin …that is evil - remains a sin remains evil.
(A child of 3 who murders another child still has done something that is “itself” a sin …an evil. Though they themselves have not committed the mortal sin of murder due to their age and innocence. They do not bear that guilt morally.)
So in that sense yes such would remain an evil (sin). That is just reality.
But that does NOT mean that the person in question has committed a sin. They may or may not have. If they are truly innocently ignorant of the nature of the Church as Christs Body and his Church - and seek to leave for another community of Christians - again in true innocent ignorance - then that ignorance can lessen or even remove the culpability (guilt) for that sin.
Catechism:
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense…
1791 … ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1793 If - on the contrary - the* ignorance is invincible*, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#1783
As to your initial question - there can be many reasons given (just as there can be many reasons given why one should not do other sins).
One thought for you in addition to what others have noted etc -is that the Church is the Body of Christ (See St. Pauls Letters) - Christ is her head. They are in union.
As the CCC reminds us:
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231
Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.
A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer:
“About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”
Read more here: www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#787
M
Monica4316
Guest
Yes it would be a sin to leave because it is the true Church. If a person doesn’t know if they believe it, that doesn’t make it not true, to put things very bluntly. Have you spent time learning about the teachings, praying, reading Catholic spirituality too? Do you pray the Rosary? Faith is a gift that we need to cultivate and cooperate with 
as for visiting others… That can be dangerous especially if you don’t know what you believe, because it can confuse you. I was baptised Orthodox and later became Protestant just because I spent time in Protestant events and didn’t know what to believe. Later God very clearly lead me back to the Sacraments and then to the Catholic Church. Also, if a Catholic has to visit another church for example for a family obligation, they should not participate in any way. But visiting with no obligation is not a good idea and if you miss Mass when you do this, you have not fulfilled your Sunday obligation. The Church gives us all these “rules” not just as rules, but to help us spiritually. God bless you
as for visiting others… That can be dangerous especially if you don’t know what you believe, because it can confuse you. I was baptised Orthodox and later became Protestant just because I spent time in Protestant events and didn’t know what to believe. Later God very clearly lead me back to the Sacraments and then to the Catholic Church. Also, if a Catholic has to visit another church for example for a family obligation, they should not participate in any way. But visiting with no obligation is not a good idea and if you miss Mass when you do this, you have not fulfilled your Sunday obligation. The Church gives us all these “rules” not just as rules, but to help us spiritually. God bless you
C
ConfusedLucy
Guest
Is it worse to leave the Catholic Church for what seems like a good reason (lets say you are female and genuinely feel God is calling you to be ordained) or to stay in the Catholic Church for a what seems like a bad reason (maybe the Catholic Church has the best sound system or coffee)
Purely hypothetical, I have no personal dilemmas about ordination or coffee myself.
Purely hypothetical, I have no personal dilemmas about ordination or coffee myself.
L
Lost_Sheep
Guest
OK, I hear what you are saying. But my (theoretical) point is that the only reason we Catholics accept this as “true”, is because we BELIEVE it to be true.
L
Lost_Sheep
Guest
Agreed. But again, this whole premise is based on the idea that we believe it is true simply because we believe it is true with no other corroborating evidence.
Again, I’m not trying to be difficult here; I just like to think outside the box sometimes.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Whatever truth’s other Christian religions have, it came from the Catholic Church.
However, they are deficient in other things.
Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of revealed truth.
That being said, the Catholic Church also has dirty laundry, but so do the others. The difference of course is that the Catholic Church is a much larger target for anti-christ’s to shoot at.
In all, Jesus Christ is the center of our faith and the Catholic Church is the Church he established.
It is the Church with documented apostolic succession.
Jim
However, they are deficient in other things.
Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of revealed truth.
That being said, the Catholic Church also has dirty laundry, but so do the others. The difference of course is that the Catholic Church is a much larger target for anti-christ’s to shoot at.
In all, Jesus Christ is the center of our faith and the Catholic Church is the Church he established.
It is the Church with documented apostolic succession.
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
A belief with very sure foundations and origin.
Divine Revelation, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Apostles witness and passed on authority, history…etc
Tis not simply a human belief like many other beliefs.
But rather FAITH.
Not simply a human endeavor but a work of the Holy Spirit…
A
AllieT
Guest
Apostolic succession is one clue to me as to why the Catholic Church is the one True Church…
catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession
There are people out there who will refute it, but one just has to do honest research and come to his or her own conclusions.
All other branches of Christian religions followed many years later, starting with Luther (like almost 1500 years AFTER the first Pope was appointed by Christ). It’s believed that it was Luther’s pride that caused him to reject the teachings of the Church. But again, one has to do their own research to come to that conclusion themselves…
As someone who was away from the Catholic Church for over 20 years, I have no doubt that the Catholic Church is the one True Church, and that I was turning my back on Christ by leaving and searching for something in other churches or even just within myself. But I had to go through a long process to come to that conclusion. (I even sometimes attended protestant churches or listened to protestant ministers, which were great, but ultimately I didn’t feel like I was getting “the whole story.”) I prayed for guidance when I felt spiritually empty, found myself back in Catholic Church on a weekday a couple of years ago, then attended the next session of RCIA, which led me to read books, study saints, attend more seminars and classes, and do more research on my own. But it took me YEARS to really find my faith. If I had it to do all over again, I would have continued to go to Church way back when and prayed for guidance in the meantime, but hindsight is 20/20.
I don’t think there’s just one answer that will convince a person with doubts that it’s a sin to leave the Church. But asking is a good place to start. It takes study and getting to really know the Church intimately…
catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession
There are people out there who will refute it, but one just has to do honest research and come to his or her own conclusions.
All other branches of Christian religions followed many years later, starting with Luther (like almost 1500 years AFTER the first Pope was appointed by Christ). It’s believed that it was Luther’s pride that caused him to reject the teachings of the Church. But again, one has to do their own research to come to that conclusion themselves…
As someone who was away from the Catholic Church for over 20 years, I have no doubt that the Catholic Church is the one True Church, and that I was turning my back on Christ by leaving and searching for something in other churches or even just within myself. But I had to go through a long process to come to that conclusion. (I even sometimes attended protestant churches or listened to protestant ministers, which were great, but ultimately I didn’t feel like I was getting “the whole story.”) I prayed for guidance when I felt spiritually empty, found myself back in Catholic Church on a weekday a couple of years ago, then attended the next session of RCIA, which led me to read books, study saints, attend more seminars and classes, and do more research on my own. But it took me YEARS to really find my faith. If I had it to do all over again, I would have continued to go to Church way back when and prayed for guidance in the meantime, but hindsight is 20/20.
I don’t think there’s just one answer that will convince a person with doubts that it’s a sin to leave the Church. But asking is a good place to start. It takes study and getting to really know the Church intimately…
J
jmcrae
Guest
I was able to discover that it was true without ever wanting it to be true, and without ever having been Catholic at the time. Of course I needed Catholics to point out to me where to look, but the evidence stands on its own merit.
A
anon98328916
Guest
Truly great answer!Yes it would be a sin to leave because it is the true Church. If a person doesn’t know if they believe it, that doesn’t make it not true, to put things very bluntly. Have you spent time learning about the teachings, praying, reading Catholic spirituality too? Do you pray the Rosary? Faith is a gift that we need to cultivate and cooperate with
D
dcana
Guest
No.
There is no religious organization on earth besides the Catholic Church that claims it was founded by God - specifically ‘on’ its first earthly leader by Her Divine Head, which office continues to this day; claims to contains the fullness of God’s self-revelation to mankind; and can show this to be true historically. She had been prophesied for 1,500 years before Christ and even to the Garden of Eden. It is not circular at all, but linear, with Christ Jesus as the starting point. It is all from Jesus Christ and His words. Have faith in Him. It is true - faith is a gift, but it is also true that faith is not blind and it accords with human reason. It has to, since it comes from the same God who is Truth Himself.
There is One God so there is One Truth about Him and One Church. That is the Divine Will from all eternity, and He had the power to accomplish it in spite of us humans who are (in fact) as nothing compared to Him, and He did it.
Have faith and rejoice! You are not “lost”, even if you think so.
E
Elena321
Guest
I think that’s likely true but my question is more visiting for curiosity or social sake rather than because I believe what the other Church is teaching.
Eg:like if I was to attend Hillsong out of curiosity.I think I’m not at risk of “buying what they are selling” (for lack of better words) but just more to “check it out”?
- Status