Why is it better to believe without seeing?

[Nick9]

If I saw someone who I knew intimately who had died and was buried, and could see and feel the wounds from which they died, I think I would have to conclude that they had somehow risen from the dead. Free will has nothing to do with it.

you just said you would *have to *believe. It would not be a free choice. Thomas already freely believed Jesus’ message of who He is before he saw Jesus risen from the dead, he just didn’t believe the particular circumstances which disclosed His actual ressurection. You get a sense of things clicking into place for Thomas when he sees Jesus, showing that the proof of His resurrection didn’t contradict Thomas’ faith prior to it. Again, Thomas had already made a free choice to accept what Jesus said about Himself and proof of the resurrection confirmed this belief.

 

[Nick9]

If I saw someone who I knew intimately who had died and was buried, and could see and feel the wounds from which they died, I think I would have to conclude that they had somehow risen from the dead. Free will has nothing to do with it.

yes, you would be forced to believe in that person’s resurrection. God doesn’t want to force us to believe in Him, however, He wants to give us enough room to walk away if we want to. For that reason he would only appear to someone who already believed in Him, in this case Thomas. Only at the Last Judgment will both believers and non-believers see God, but then the time for choosing will be over, I believe.

 

[redhen]

you just said you would *have to *believe. It would not be a free choice. Thomas already freely believed Jesus’ message of who He is before he saw Jesus risen from the dead, he just didn’t believe the particular circumstances which disclosed His actual ressurection. You get a sense of things clicking into place for Thomas when he sees Jesus, showing that the proof of His resurrection didn’t contradict Thomas’ faith prior to it. Again, Thomas had already made a free choice to accept what Jesus said about Himself and proof of the resurrection confirmed this belief.

Wow, the Gospel of John says all that?

 

[Nick9]

Wow, the Gospel of John says all that?

John:
11:14 Jesus put it plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead;
11:15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there because now you will believe. But let us go to him.’
11:16 Then Thomas - known as the Twin - said to the other disciples, ‘Let us go too, and die with him’.

notice how Thomas was prepared to die with Jesus. This is evidence that he believed in Jesus and also possibly shows that he believed that to die with Him would lead to resurrection (otherwise why would he suggest they all die with Him?).

John:
20:27 Then he spoke to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; look, here are my hands. Give me your hand; put it into my side. Doubt no longer but believe.’
20:28 Thomas replied, ‘My Lord and my God!’

As I said, Thomas seeing Jesus risen from the dead confirmed his faith.

Can I ask you redhen, do you like the idea of God even if you can’t believe in Him? It is just my theory that those who refuse to believe do so because they don’t like what they hear about God (which may be a false image), which is why many atheists often show a hatred for the idea of Him. If you don’t like the idea of God, why? Is it because you don’t want to be bound by God’s laws? I am just curious.

 

[redhen]

Can I ask you redhen, do you like the idea of God even if you can’t believe in Him? It is just my theory that those who refuse to believe do so because they don’t like what they hear about God (which may be a false image), which is why many atheists often show a hatred for the idea of Him.

I don’t *hate *God, I just don’t have any good reason to believe in Him. Notice how I have always used a capital H in referring to Him on this forum, out of respect to the members here.

I would love to believe in a good and loving God, but again, I don’t see any reason to believe in a Semitic Storm god named Yahweh, any more than Ahura Mazda, Wotan or Krishna.

The Bible is a collection of texts written by men, riddled with inconsistencies, errors and borrowings from Akkadian myths.

The only reason it became popular was because of it’s radical, new proposition of salvation for the poor, slaves, women, everyone, and the amazing public relations job by Paul. Otherwise we would probably still be worshiping Mithra.

The Buddha promulgated a similar egalitarian philosophy, which is why it is so popular even today.

Who wouldn’t want to see their relatives in heaven in an afterlife for all eternity. But I have yet to see any good reason to believe such a claim.

I’ve said novenas, I’ve gone to confession and communion. I’ve read the apologetics, ancient and modern. And, I’ve yet to receive any kind of response. No inner voice, no locutions (interior or exterior) and certainly no theophanies.

I have always had an idealistic outlook. I joined the Boy Scouts when I was young. I believed in duty, honour, chivalry. I served in the infantry for two different nations. I was ready to die to protect western civilization again the communist threat.

If you don’t like the idea of God, why? Is it because you don’t want to be bound by God’s laws? I am just curious.

I made a vow to be a good and faithful servant if only I could see some reason to believe. I even stayed at a Benedictine monastery for a time. When they offered me a novitiate, I ran away. I did not find God there either.

In the end, what I believe in is science (I have an engineering degree). And now I find myself back in college because of work visa problems in the U.S. (see the other thread in Social Justice).
Anthropology and Psychology provide answers to many of the questions I have.

Still, it would be liberating to find a higher reason for existence.
That’s why I still read these forums. I keep hoping I will find that reason to believe.

 

[Nick9]

thanks for sharing that redhen, I appreciate it. I can see that you are honest and are searching, which I think means that yours is a state of invincible ignorance (i.e. non-culpable).

You say you believe in science and so does the Catholic Church. We believe that God can be known with certainty through the things He has made and I believe this. You will have heard it before, but don’t you think the DNA molecule necessitates a designer due to its complexity and the fact that it uses a language, like computer code (according to Bill Gates), but far more advanced than we could devise? Also, if not God, then the only alternative creator seems to be Chance, which is blind and brainless. Could that create a being as complex as us?

Anyway, gotta go. Nice to meet you and I liked what you said about your quest for truth and particularly your inner desire that God be real. Might chat again sometime. God bless you

 

[redhen]

Interesting, I’ve never heard of this invincible (Inculpable) ignorance argument before.

I found a quote on this site attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas
cfnews.org/invig.htm

“Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, **if needed, an angel to instruct **them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

I did a quick search on the Summa Theologica from the New Advent site, but couldn’t find the source. Does anyone know where this quote is from?

I think if an angel instructed me, I would believe. But then how do you identify an angel?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I found a quote on this site attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas
cfnews.org/invig.htm

“**Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, **if needed, an angel to instruct ****them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

I did a quick search on the Summa Theologica from the New Advent site, but couldn’t find the source. Does anyone know where this quote is from?

traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/The_Catholic_Dogma/Chapter-V.html

en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Catholic_Dogma:_Extra_Ecclesiam_Nullus_Omnino_Salvatur/Chapter_V

BIG thingy:
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Catholic_Dogma:_Extra_Ecclesiam_Nullus_Omnino_Salvatur

I don’t THINK that this is from Aquinas.

:shamrock2:

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I would love to believe in a good and loving God, but again, I don’t see any reason to believe in a Semitic Storm god named Yahweh, any more than Ahura Mazda, Wotan or Krishna.

I hope that even if you reason that we can’t know which religion is more correct, that you still spend time in prayer and try your best to know God.

Many religions have a lot of good advice on how to lead a holy life and a life of prayer. Instead of worrying so much about why Christians are so illogical, I think you could spend your time better by following things in different religions that make sense to you. Don’t let the lack of a complete map to the destination prevent you from starting out on your journey.

 

[Nick9]

Interesting, I’ve never heard of this invincible (Inculpable) ignorance argument before.

I found a quote on this site attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas
cfnews.org/invig.htm

“Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, **if needed, an angel to instruct **them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

I did a quick search on the Summa Theologica from the New Advent site, but couldn’t find the source. Does anyone know where this quote is from?

I think if an angel instructed me, I would believe. But then how do you identify an angel?

try reading Veritatis Splendor by John Paul II on conscience. Here is a quote:

1. Conscience, as the judgment of an act, is not exempt from the possibility of error. As the Council puts it, “not infrequently conscience can be mistaken as a result of invincible ignorance, although it does not on that account forfeit its dignity; but this cannot be said when a man shows little concern for seeking what is true and good, and conscience gradually becomes almost blind from being accustomed to sin”.[107] In these brief words the Council sums up the doctrine which the Church down the centuries has developed with regard to the erroneous conscience.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

redhen, I have a question for you, what are you looking for?

1 Proof that God exists even if he never chooses to reveal himself personally to you Is this enough for you? It seems that the Fatima miracle might be enough. After all, one can research it through news.google.com, that’s how (I think!! can’t remember any more!!) I found those newspaper articles documenting the miracle from the Los Angeles Times to the New York Times to the Chicago Daily Tribune.

2 Personal revelation of God I have had this, and the person who converted me had this. But to some extent - in his case he was an atheist who had a miracle happen to him. In my case, it was only after a long period of sacrificially living out the Christian call to the best of my ability that it happened and it came hand in hand with much pain! To some extent, the visible Jesus is not separate from the Cross. The Fatima children who saw Christ suffered horribly in this life.

Do you do anything in your life that would encourage God to give you a deeper sense of his presence? Such as service to others (i.e. soup kitchen) or daily prayer of the Rosary (especially group prayer at a Daily Mass or St. Maximilian Maria village)

May the Holy Spirit through the Mother of the Word grant us the graces that we desperately need, particularly patience, understanding, faith, hope, love, and mercy!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus shine down into redhen in abundance, now and forever!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary come to his aid!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Nick9]

Interesting, I’ve never heard of this invincible (Inculpable) ignorance argument before.

I found a quote on this site attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas
cfnews.org/invig.htm

“Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, **if needed, an angel to instruct **them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

I did a quick search on the Summa Theologica from the New Advent site, but couldn’t find the source. Does anyone know where this quote is from?

I think if an angel instructed me, I would believe. But then how do you identify an angel?

I just read the site on invincible ignorance you posted above. I liked the quote of Pius IX at the end, which is in keeping with Vatican II (cf. GS22; LG16):

Hence Pius IX said “that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man, will, in His infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault.”

From this, the invincibly ignorant need to follow what they believe to be God’s will as they perceive it in their consciences, which seems to contradict the rest of the commentary from the link, but not Vatican II:

“All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way.(31) For, since Christ died for all men,(32) and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.” (GS22)

Also see the Catechism (CCC846-848) interpreting the meaning of: outside the Church there is no salvation.

 

[Tigg]

REDHEN:

I prayed for you this morning - I know people say that all the time, but I truly prayed for you and laid your heart upon the altar during the consecration at Mass.

My uncle is an engineer (didn’t you say you were, too?) and from your posts you sound much like him. He has struggled with faith issues all his life - he so just so S-M-A-R-T (as I suspect you are, too) that his intellect gets in the way of belief. He has not been at peace, even in his later years.

I suspect no matter how many posts you read, nor how many links, nor how many answers you get to direct your path, ultimately it will be your own journey of laying at the feet of Jesus, being very vulnerable and simply asking the Lord to remove the obstacle(s) you have to faith.

May you be granted the love of the Lord in your heart! Peace!

 

[Sinner1]

This is a very interesting thread in that I have many of the same questions as redhen.

I could understand how Jesus could be a bit annoyed with Thomas. The guy knew Jesus personally and witnessed all of his miracles. Why would he really doubt after all that he had seen?

I often wonder the same thing about many of the saints. A lot of times the saints are praised for having great faith, but at the same time, many of them have deep mystical experiences with God. How much credit does that really give them? If God gave me some deep mystical experience that assured me of Catholicism, then I don’t think I’d have any trouble with faith.

If Catholicism isn’t true, then the teaching of faith being a virtue makes perfect sense. What better way to prevent people from seriously inquiring and doubting then to tell them that God is pleased with them believing without seeing?

 

[redhen]

If Catholicism isn’t true, then the teaching of faith being a virtue makes perfect sense. What better way to prevent people from seriously inquiring and doubting then to tell them that God is pleased with them believing without seeing?

The same can be said for any faith based worldview. Many westerners interested in Buddhism have problems with the concept of rebirth. They are usually told to put it aside at the beginning and focus on the 8 fold path.

Locutions, theophanies, etc seem to only come to those with great faith. Same with Buddhism. People are told that once you reach the 4th stage of Dhyāna (meditation), only then can they see your past lives. The problem is, practically no one claims to have reached this stage. It’s all hearsay.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

A problem with reincarnation is that it also gives the person a false sense of eternity in that they fear no consequences for a sinful life as they believe they will have chance after chance. I would rather not take that path.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[redhen]

It’s all still faith based though, that was my point. Wether you believe in Hindu reincarnation, Buddhist rebirth, or Abrahamic souls, there’s no empirical evidence for any of it.

 

[Sinner1]

A problem with reincarnation is that it also gives the person a false sense of eternity in that they fear no consequences for a sinful life as they believe they will have chance after chance. I would rather not take that path.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I wouldn’t say that’s quite true. Historically, most reincarnationists (is that a word?) believed that one’s current life was a result of how they acted in their previous life. If one’s previous life was virtuous, they might spend their next life as upper class or royalty. If one was a bad person in their previous life, they might spend their next life being poor or, heaven forbid, a woman.

But anyways, that’s besides the point. The real issue here is believing without seeing.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

It’s all still faith based though, that was my point. Wether you believe in Hindu reincarnation, Buddhist rebirth, or Abrahamic souls, there’s no empirical evidence for any of it.

Maybe there exists empirical evidence for the Eucharist. Pubmed.com is a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health. Here is a citation for a medical journal analyzing a miracle, empirical evidence:

Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century) Linoli O. Quad Sclavo Digan 1971 Sep; 7(3):661-74. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=4950729&log$=activity Odardo Linoli is a Professor in Anatomy and Pathological History and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. Photos exist of this Eucharistic miracle. Journal articles are, to the best of my imperfect and sometimes ignorant knowledge, the same things we use to make new medicines.

The Marian apparitions that I posted before were confirmed in the New York Times, the Chicago Daily Tribune, and the Los Angeles Times. Have any Hindu miracles been confirmed by these organizations? Why should we believe the reports that we read about the war in Iraq from these newspaper articles if we do not believe in the Marian apparitions? And if the Marian apparitions are true, then Christ must be true, correct, because there is no reason to consider Mary apart from Christ to the best of my, again horribly imperfect knowledge. May my logic be speedily corrected if it is misguided

Other miracles have been studied by NASA scientists such as the tilma of Guadalupe.

Additionally, I have seen supernatural events. I know a Christian pursing a PhD in a scientific subject at U.C Berkeley who has also seen supernatural events. Perhaps if you wish, I might ask him if he is willing to be contacted by you and to explain his experience. He is the one who first converted me to a more devout faith, after which about 3 years later I saw my first supernatural event.

Finally, Governor Bobby Jindal, a devout Catholic and Rhodes Scholar as well as Governor of Louisiana has also seen supernatural events. Here is his testimony, which he published in the New Oxford Review:newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=1294-jindal

unborn babies, St. Josephine Bakhtia, St. Martin de Porres, St. Pierre Touissant, St. Edith Stein, St. Therese of Liseux, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Maximilian Maria, St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, St. Louis Mary de Montfort, St. Mary Faustina, St. Dominic, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Vincent de Paul, St. Padre Pio, St. Dympha, St. Maria de Goretti, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, His Holiness Pope John Paul II, Archangel Michael, Archangel Gabriel, Archangel Raphael, all the angels, popes, and saints, pray to the Mother of the Word for us!!

May the Holy Spirit through the Mother of the Word grant us the graces that we most desperately need!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus overshadow us!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary help us!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have meryc on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[redhen]

I didn’t know about Bobby Jindal’s experience, thanks for that link.
It’s probably not the right intention, but I would be very willing to witness a sanctioned exorcism. I guess whatever faith I have, I view as psychological wish fulfillment. I need to experience the supernatural with my own sense organs.

Anyways, we’re straying again from the OP’s question.